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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Lailoken said:
J is going to have to find out and help cover this anyway, so there's not much reason to kill Kagome.
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There is a difference between killing and/or capturing Kagome and Jiraiya "finding out" (we'd be stupid to not tell him at the first opportunity, so assume that's given) versus letting Kagome go and then telling Jiraiya THAT.

The first is expected of us as Leaf-nin and is a defensible action he can spin. The second, he and Shikaku can spin, but it is going to be significantly harder, the rest of the team will be a constant liability, and it will cost us dearly in terms of goodwill and potential.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
[X] Action Plan: Lore Update

@eaglejarl : I hope I've not been an ass. My only goal with my previous posts was to point out how this is a systemic error that is very hard for the hivemind alone to solve. It's just a matter of too few tuits spent collectively.

That said, this is a wonderful quest. And I do really appreciate the work you @Velorien, and @OliWhail put in. In the worst case I might switch to lurking for a bit until I can get enough enthusiasm back to contribute more.

Also, this was absolutely a reasonable outcome for our actions. I just think it's very difficult to keep from committing this class of mistakes over and over as a hivemind, where an actual person in this world would find it orders of magnitude easier.

@Velorien : The chat has long moved on, but there's this class of errors caused by lack of tuits spent on planning. A few that come to mind:
  • Tactical actions in the Hot Springs Incident (esp. w/ regards to the other jounin that we didn't realize would come to help.)
  • The whole getting kicked out of Leaf incident.
  • Going to snow, for no good reason.
In each case, the specific actions would have seemed unreasonable to someone with the context someone in the world would have. (Knowledge of how a DMZ works, Fear of jiraiya)

That context is not impossible for the hivemind to figure out, but it is incredibly expensive. We have to juggle exponentially more hypothesis than the QMs to reverse-engineer the context to any given fidelity. It is much harder to for a party with little info (the story posts) to find probable hypothesis and simulate reasonable outcomes, than it is for a party with significantly more information (the story posts + worldbuilding notes). Not to mention, your job is to find a reasonable way for the world to respond. Our job is to figure out the specific way you're likely to choose.

And we simply don't have enough people spending enough time to even do a good job of finding sufficiently probable hypothesis given the limited amount of information we have access to.

Honestly, the following is probably the best way to solve the context problem.

[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.


The only thing that feels in-character for Hazou right now is a nervous breakdown. This is just too much in a dozen different ways. I honestly can't see him as able to make the choice between Kagome, Akane, Leaf, his ambitions towards leadership, his violence-minimizing nature, etc..

There's just too many things he values all suddenly conflicting at once.

[X] Action Plan : Nervous Breakdown
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I can't agree more. It was always about the context, and our lack of it that screwed us.

And not only that, we are constantly asking questions about the world which the QMs couldn't keep up.
 
Kiba said:
I can't agree more. It was always about the context, and our lack of it that screwed us.

And not only that, we are constantly asking questions about the world which the QMs couldn't keep up.
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It is worth noting that the QMs cannot1​ keep up with the level of context we need. Asking them to give us the context is not a solution. (Not that that was what you were proposing)

[1] : As in, are incapable of given their available free time for this quest.
 
Okay i took a long nap, now there's a poll and people are voting to kill themselves? What? Salty much?


As somebody who doesn't participate in plan making, for the most part, I definitely want to Give Hazou more Agency. Since I personally have none, it makes no difference to me but this way results in less... Unusual occurrences that distract from the greater story.

[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.

In like the 'I promise not to complain' part.
 
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@redzonejoe

I've detached from the character of Hazou entirely and, ideally if the quest is to continue, wish for it to be at the helm of another character in a different situation. This is why I vote for suicide.
 
[X] Action Plan: The Watchtower
[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.

I strongly dislike any plans that want to kill Kagome. He is part of our Team Uplift and it breaks my heart we even have to consider something like that. Out of all the things, the fact that we have to compromise who we are (Kill Kagome), go into exile (Watchtower) or just roll over and die (Suicide) really sucks. I definitely did not expect the quest to end this way - and it really feels like an end. Hopefully I am proven wrong though and it is recoverable, I just don't see how without a lot of GM goodwill or Lupchanz Ex Machinas. :(
 
@eaglejarl, @Velorien:

I want to thank you for writing this quest up to this point. It's consistently been very well written and I've grown quite attached to many of your characters. If either of you have any regular fiction available to read, I'd like to know, because I think I'd probably like it. Good luck with the rest of the quest, if it continues, and with any other projects you work on in the future.

Now I need to go find something to cheer myself up with, because considering suicide the only option for fictional characters is usually a sign that my depression is flaring up.
 
Hey thanks QM's for the great quest. In the entire internet, it's certainly something special. You've put in a lot of hard work, and it's appreciated.

[X] Action Plan: Commit Suicide
I'd prefer starting with a new character to a bunch of updates of misery and awfulness. It also seems relatively IC. Also, explosive tag in mouth, would the moisture of our mouth ruin the tag? Maybe explosive tags around head, and then detonate.

Also, I feel like neither option in the poll is good. There's a middle ground, I feel like I've seen it in many other quests. Maybe I'm wrong. Also, bundling the Yes vote with "promise not to complain" doesn't sit well with me.
 
Seventeen said:
@eaglejarl, @Velorien:

I want to thank you for writing this quest up to this point. It's consistently been very well written and I've grown quite attached to many of your characters. If either of you have any regular fiction available to read, I'd like to know, because I think I'd probably like it. Good luck with the rest of the quest, if it continues, and with any other projects you work on in the future.

Now I need to go find something to cheer myself up with, because considering suicide the only option for fictional characters is usually a sign that my depression is flaring up.
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I'd recommend rereading the story from the beginning and the corresponding plans, and then listing all the stupid things we did that could have bitten us in the ass (and the things we should have done but didn't).
 
faflec said:
I'd recommend rereading the story from the beginning and the corresponding plans, and then listing all the stupid things we did that could have bitten us in the ass (and the things we should have done but didn't).
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Personally, I'm still kind of shocked Kagome didn't kill us right out when we first met him :p I campaigned pretty hard against that.
 
@Jello_Raptor
It feels a little weird for Hazou to decide, "Yes, I will have a nervous breakdown."

I mean, it may happen from the ludicrous amount of stress Hazou is experiencing, but voting for it sounds weird. Is there precedent for this kind of vote?
 
Seventeen said:
@eaglejarl, @Velorien:

I want to thank you for writing this quest up to this point. It's consistently been very well written and I've grown quite attached to many of your characters. If either of you have any regular fiction available to read, I'd like to know, because I think I'd probably like it. Good luck with the rest of the quest, if it continues, and with any other projects you work on in the future.

Now I need to go find something to cheer myself up with, because considering suicide the only option for fictional characters is usually a sign that my depression is flaring up.
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The Two-Year Emperor is the one that I can remember off the top of my head. I can't remember if @eaglejarl published that as a paid novel though.
 
edqu said:
@Jello_Raptor
It feels a little weird for Hazou to decide, "Yes, I will have a nervous breakdown."

I mean, it may happen from the ludicrous amount of stress Hazou is experiencing, but voting for it sounds weird. Is there precedent for this kind of vote?
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Sort of, closest is the youthsuit incident. That only got retconned because it was a last minute switch when there weren't a significant number of players around. This vote is early enough that that excuse won't work.

I think we have explicitly specified Hazou's mental state before, but mostly just things like "respectful" and "worried". This is a bit of a jump, but I don't actually think it's an unreasonable one.
 
Huh. This happened.

First of all, to balance out some of the salt, I truly appreciate the hard work the GMs are putting into this. I've done my share of GMing and it's a lot of effort, sometimes for very little thanks.

Secondly:

[X] Action Plan: Lore Update

I dislike the idea of suicide, and I think we could all use some extra time to work things out. But if you're going to suicide, K.I.S.S. We've got hundreds of explosive tags on us. Set as many of them off as possible at once. Done.

As for what actually happened and my opinion thereof. Looks to me like we messed up the plan bad, fair and square. (We also seem to have messed up the next plan.) The results of the plan are perfectly plausible, no problems there. However...These results appear to have been extremely easy for everyone to predict in-character yet completely unexpected and unpredictable by everyone out-of-character, which I think indicates some sort of systemic problem. (In addition I personally have found previously that I think I'd enjoy this story significantly more if it were a web serial rather than a quest, which I think I've traced to this exact issue.) I am not sure what exactly would be the best way to avoid this problem, but the poll seems to at least go to some effort towards a solution. Hopefully it'll work out.

One thing I would criticize on the GM side of the events is that not rolling social against teammates is, I find, not really a good resolution here. It is clearly an extrordinary situation, and if there were signs to be seen of Kagome going off the rails then I don't see why Hazou would not have the chance to spot them - it feels like mechanics getting in the way of common sense, which is a terrible idea and should never happen if at all avoidable - if the fictional reality as agreed upon by the players and GMs alike conflicts with the game mechanics, the mechanics need to change. If there were no signs to find, that's fine. I'm not qualified to judge either way. (Was Kagome deliberately keeping his intentions a secret from the team, thinking we would interfere while being sure of his way being the correct way, or did he stay silent just to not tip off Minami and honestly, truly believed that we would be okay with what he was about to do even after all this time spent with us and our worldview?)

Finally, as an aside, I find it rather interesting to see the reactions of the thread to this update. There are a lot of people who've informed us they're leaving, but it also looks like there are way more people lurking and very emotionally invested in this story than I had thought even after correcting for the fact that I know there are always way more lurkers than there are active voters.
 
fiirofa said:
Meaning if our supposed friends don't successfully calm us down, we kill ourselves? If they do, we go catatonic?
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Nope, Suicidal Ideation is technically an anomalous/obsessive amount of thought about suicide. It only specifies that he'll obsess over some combination of committing suicide, wanting to be dead, planning how to commit suicide, etc...

While suicidal ideation is a neccesary condition for a suicide attempt, it doesn't actually mean someone will attempt suicide.

Edit: Speaking as someone with depression, it's still not a normal thing, if you have thoughts of suicide call a hotline or talk to a doctor. Dealing with it for long enough has made me somewhat matter of fact about the whole thing.
 
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