Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

faflec · May 2, 2017

Kiba said:
Who's Nakaruma, and why are we asking for Bird summon info?

Nakamura is Naruto's Jonin-sensei. Apparently Kakashi didn't actually want the job. No, I'm not fucking with you.

Some people wanted the Pangolins to do their own research into the Bird Summon, and since time is a factor wrt getting the information it's best that we tell the Pangolins now so they can get any information they can get back to Jiraiya ASAP.

Kiba · May 2, 2017

faflec said:
Nakamura is Naruto's Jonin-sensei. Apparently Kakashi didn't actually want the job. No, I'm not fucking with you.

Some people wanted the Pangolins to do their own research into the Bird Summon, and since time is a factor wrt getting the information it's best that we tell the Pangolins now so they can get any information they can get back to Jiraiya ASAP.

Anyway, my suggestion is to ask Jiraiya if we can discuss classified info in front of Akane and Minami.

E: I don't think we can be "not too obvious."

Dictator4Hire · May 2, 2017

Briefvoice said:
I have no idea how many S-rankers or near S-rankers Leaf has, and neither do you. We know Gai exists, and in canon he's capable of fighting at the Kage level when he opens the gates. It seems likely to me that Kakashi exists, simply because I don't know why the character would be dropped from the setting. Tsunade? No idea.

That's why I put: "that we know of", but for the sake of the argument, let's say that Gai, Kakashi, and Tsunade are all available to help and are all S-rank in practice.

Along with Jiraiya that still leaves us with only 4 S-rank ninjas against at least the 8 we know about from Akatsuki (Deidara, Itachi, the leader (probably Pein), the tai jutsu user, Kisame, the undying one (presumably Hidan), the puppet-master (probably Sasori), and Konan).

I still don't like our odds.

Briefvoice said:
And while MfD!Akatsuki might be "smart enough to know who to attack" when it comes to brains Leaf has Shikaku Nara on their side. They caught him off-guard once. They will not do so twice.

This isn't chess; Shikaku will not have perfect information to call upon nor perfect pieces to position precisely. Even then it's one thing to have a perfect strategy but quite another to enact it.

Briefvoice said:
A non-permanently rehabilitating injury can still leave you with a malus for months.

And we should use those months to our advantage by researching as much as possible. They inflicted much heavier loses on Leaf in that last confrontation by capturing Naruto and killing Hiruzen along with the majority of the ANBU. We need to seize every small advantage we can get.

Briefvoice said:
That's fine, but ultimately I don't share your belief that Hazou can sealcraft a solution if only given enough time. If nothing else, he needs to better understand his opponents.

Like I said earlier, if anyone has a different plan to defeat Akatsuki with the resources we have available to us, I'm all ears. I believe sealing is our best bet at the moment and even if we are unable to create a weapon(s) capable of defeating Akatsuki maybe we can use that expertise to do something reasonable like leave the planet before it becomes an even worse dystopia.

How would better understanding these opponents help us more than doing sealing research? Better yet, if we have to learn more about them, why can't we wait for someone else to give us a briefing on Akatsuki's abilities while Hazou gets busy doing the one thing only he specifically can do that has (imo) the greatest likelihood of increasing Leaf's overall military strength again?

faflec · May 2, 2017

Kiba said:
Anyway, my suggestion is to ask Jiraiya if we can discuss classified info in front of Akane and Minami.

E: I don't think we can be "not too obvious."

Yeah, I saw that edit after I started typing

I likey.

Enjou · May 2, 2017

Vecht said:
I will not be voting for any plan that can't take the time to ask someone for a list of useful seals that we can likely munchkin to worldbreaking affect. I'm sorry; this is just ridiculous. Probably the only reason we haven't done this already is just that we didn't have the clearance as we weren't Leaf-nin, and even then we should have considered this long ago.

Well, that's your prerogative. I just don't think that this is the time to try for this kind of thing as much as we might want to, and unless someone comes up with a very good way to get such a list in the next two hours of IC time that wouldn't step on someone's toes when Jiraiya very much wants us to not do that and also wouldn't disrupt our mission preparation then I won't be voting for a plan that includes it.

Nobody's likely to be doing seal research until the rescue mission is over with anyways, so even if we come up with ideas it's not like they'll get implemented, and it's not like we don't already have a number of ideas we want to research already. Sure, there's a chance we might luck into something that would be just what we need to make some worldbreaking weapon... and then we'd have to come up with defenses against it before giving it out to anyone, because Shikaku has been pretty clear that we need to think about that too. There's also a chance we'd discover nothing.

Shneddly · May 2, 2017

[χ] Deliberately fail a seal infusion to contact the Watchers

But really, why has this basically been ignored?

faflec · May 2, 2017

Shneddly said:
[χ] Deliberately fail a seal infusion to contact the Watchers

But really, why has this basically been ignored?

Because they will kill us? Or (in Kagome's opinion) kidnap us and force us to become seal slaves.

faflec · May 2, 2017

Changed the plan a bit to account for @Kiba's suggestion. Specifically:

faflec said:
Ask for some details on the Bird Summon such that the Pangolins can more quickly find and deliver said information to Leaf.

Ask permission to speak about the recent meeting in front of Minami/Akane.

Jiraiya can delegate the information to Nakamura if needed (pretty sure Nakamura was still there).

fiirofa · May 2, 2017

Also,

[χ] Use Nobby to capture a Lupchanz

faflec · May 2, 2017

Please guys, I can't do this on my own and want to make sure the Jiraiya/Mari conversations don't end with sads.

Enjou · May 2, 2017

faflec said:
Please guys, I can't do this on my own and want to make sure the Jiraiya/Mari conversations don't end with sads.

How about you just go for the Lore Update and not worry too much about it? We haven't had a lore update in a while anyways, and it's a good spot for one, and we'll have more time to make a plan that way. It's already winning by seven votes anyways.

faflec · May 2, 2017

Enjou said:
How about you just go for the Lore Update and not worry too much about it? We haven't had a lore update in a while anyways, and it's a good spot for one, and we'll have more time to make a plan that way. It's already winning by seven votes anyways.

Which is true, but I am still stressed for if @Velorien decides "no Lore Update". Better safe than sorry, you know?

Oneiros · May 2, 2017

faflec said:
Please guys, I can't do this on my own and want to make sure the Jiraiya/Mari conversations don't end with sads.

We should joke with Jiriyia. I'd make a reference to how we will go pretty damn far to get naruto back. Also tell him about how we validated his terrible naming schemes with the banshees

Enjou · May 2, 2017

faflec said:
Which is true, but I am still stressed for if @Velorien decides "no Lore Update". Better safe than sorry, you know?

Lore update has been winning for a while now, and if he decided that at this juncture I would say we'd be justified in getting an extension given the later hour.

Vecht · May 2, 2017

Enjou said:
Nobody's likely to be doing seal research until the rescue mission is over with anyways, so even if we come up with ideas it's not like they'll get implemented, and it's not like we don't already have a number of ideas we want to research already. Sure, there's a chance we might luck into something that would be just what we need to make some worldbreaking weapon... and then we'd have to come up with defenses against it before giving it out to anyone, because Shikaku has been pretty clear that we need to think about that too. There's also a chance we'd discover nothing.

I think you are being unnecessarily combative here, and dare I say it, irrational. It isn't that we want to do seal research on the run per se, but that just having the information gives us time to munchkin seals in real time while we're out doing things in game time. If we have to wait until we return (which could well be several updates) that means a month or two that we -- the thread -- didn't spend thinking about this. And when it comes time to actually put ideas into practice when the shit hits the fan, we will regret not having spent an insignificant amount of time to get the information now, when we have the opportunity.

Enjou said:
Sure, there's a chance we might luck into something that would be just what we need to make some worldbreaking weapon [...]

Tiny chance times extremely massive win equals massive win, and there is no other way about this. Massive win minus possibility of stepping on toes equals massive win, and there is no other way about this.

Enjou said:
unless someone comes up with a very good way to get such a list in the next two hours of IC time that wouldn't step on someone's toes when Jiraiya very much wants us to not do that and also wouldn't disrupt our mission preparation then I won't be voting for a plan that includes it

"Hokage-sama, one last thing. If you could point me to someone that can give me a list of useful seals, I would estimate a nontrival chance that I could figure out additional uses for them, comparable to the level of Skytowers and Skywalkers, before returning to Leaf. I don't need to research them; only need notes on their usages and limitations. I believe I can do this without detracting from the speed or success chance of our mission."

Worst case would be something like: "Kid, I don't have time for this. Get on with it."

Best case would be: "Sure, sounds reasonable. Go see X, tell them I sent you."

Dictator4Hire · May 2, 2017

Enjou said:
Well, that's your prerogative. I just don't think that this is the time to try for this kind of thing as much as we might want to, and unless someone comes up with a very good way to get such a list in the next two hours of IC time that wouldn't step on someone's toes when Jiraiya very much wants us to not do that and also wouldn't disrupt our mission preparation then I won't be voting for a plan that includes it.

Since the update ended with this:

eaglejarl said:
"Good. Any questions?" He paused while the team looked back and forth uncertainly.

Here's what I would say:

H: "Sir, in the interest of protecting our new home from a threat that just killed the 3rd Hokage, captured the Nine-tails host, and eliminated numerous ANBU, I am unsure why you are sending all of us on this mission. Leaf currently has taken a crippling blow and needs all of the firepower it can muster as soon as possible. We have already given you a force multiplier that, had recent events not occurred, would have cemented your position as the most powerful Hidden Village in the Elemental Nations. Said seal was created while we were outlaws with limited resources. If Akatsuki is such a threat that it can attack two kage openly we will need the means to fight them sooner rather than later. My personal people-skills are... frankly inadequate for your proposed mission. Why not instead have me personally as well as any seal-masters and/or other technique developers you can spare work in a secured location outside of Leaf to revolutionize warfare again? I would be out of Leaf so I would not cause you any trouble and my teammates are more than capable of completing this mission without me: I trust them and their abilities. Skywalkers were meant to end the upcoming war and I am willing to invent as many seals as it takes to win the fight against any who would threaten my new home. Please sir, let me help protect it and all of my comrades to the best of my abilities as a seal-user. Of course, I trust your judgment as Hokage and will follow your orders to the best of my abilities; I just thought I should point out this alternative option."

Critiques?

Dictator4Hire · May 2, 2017

Vecht said:
I think you are being unnecessarily combative here, and dare I say it, irrational.

Easy there mate; you'll make bird-duke mad.

Vecht said:
It isn't that we want to do seal research on the run per se, but that just having the information gives us time to munchkin seals in real time while we're out doing things in game time. If we have to wait until we return (which could well be several updates) that means a month or two that we -- the thread -- didn't spend thinking about this. And when it comes time to actually put ideas into practice when the shit hits the fan, we will regret not having spent an insignificant amount of time to get the information now.

We still need large amounts of time in game in order to create, test, and troubleshoot the ideas in the MfD universe.

In theory, practice is the same as theory.

In practice... not so much.

faflec · May 2, 2017

Vecht said:
It isn't that we want to do seal research on the run per se, but that just having the information gives us time to munchkin seals in real time while we're out doing things in game time.

We've been asking for a list of the seals from Jiraiya's sealing book we got weeks ago, but we only got specs when we did actual research into them (the wind/light seals).

notanautomaton · May 2, 2017

Shneddly said:
[χ] Deliberately fail a seal infusion to contact the Watchers

But really, why has this basically been ignored?

SCREAMS IN KAGOME

faflec · May 2, 2017

Eh, what the hell.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Can we have a list of the seals from the beginner book? At this point I feel we should have gotten the basic knowledge of all the seals, even if we can't reproduce them yet.

hYGP · May 2, 2017

Dictator4Hire said:
Here's what I would say:

H: "Sir, in the interest of protecting our new home from a threat that just killed the 3rd Hokage, captured the Nine-tails host, and eliminated numerous ANBU, I am unsure why you are sending all of us on this mission. Leaf currently has taken a crippling blow and needs all of the firepower it can muster as soon as possible. We have already given you a force multiplier that, had recent events not occurred, would have cemented your position as the most powerful Hidden Village in the Elemental Nations. Said seal was created while we were outlaws with limited resources. If Akatsuki is such a threat that it can attack two kage openly we will need the means to fight them sooner rather than later. My personal people-skills are... frankly inadequate for your proposed mission. Why not instead have me personally as well as any seal-masters and/or other technique developers you can spare work in a secured location outside of Leaf to revolutionize warfare again? I would be out of Leaf so I would not cause you any trouble and my teammates are more than capable of completing this mission without me: I trust them and their abilities. Skywalkers were meant to end the upcoming war and I am willing to invent as many seals as it takes to win the fight against any who would threaten my new home. Please sir, let me help protect it and all of my comrades to the best of my abilities as a seal-user. Of course, I trust your judgment as Hokage and will follow your orders to the best of my abilities; I just thought I should point out this alternative option."

Critiques?

Nothing against your purported dialogue - it's really good. The problem is that our team just isn't, without us. Bold words, I know.
But consider this: For all that we go to Mari and Keiko literally any time we have a plan, the rest of the team kind of counts on us for it. Add on Minami taking nominal command, Kagome losing his apprentice (or joining us, which would deprive our squad of jonin), Akane either breaking off to "protect" us or being constantly worried over it, and our team kind of falls to pieces.

Also, that sealing and hacking group is not going to be safe without protection on the tier that only S-Rankers provide, which, guess which Village they need to defend?

Vecht · May 2, 2017

Dictator4Hire said:
Easy there mate; you'll make bird-duke mad.

Just to clarify, I don't question Enjou's motives at all here, nor would I. I simply think he's wrong, being persistently wrong, and I have given reasons why. However, I have been known to be a little more forceful than necessary in the past on issues like this, so perhaps I'm doing so here and now, and if so I do apologize.

Kiba · May 2, 2017

faflec said:
Changed the plan a bit to account for @Kiba's suggestion. Specifically:

First, ask permission. Then, speak about classified info. We don't want the QM misreading that and doing it out of order.

huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Nothing against your purported dialogue - it's really good. The problem is that our team just isn't, without us. Bold words, I know.
But consider this: For all that we go to Mari and Keiko literally any time we have a plan, the rest of the team kind of counts on us for it. Add on Minami taking nominal command, Kagome losing his apprentice (or joining us, which would deprive our squad of jonin), Akane either breaking off to "protect" us or being constantly worried over it, and our team kind of falls to pieces.

Also, that sealing and hacking group is not going to be safe without protection on the tier that only S-Rankers provide, which, guess which Village they need to defend?

Unless the team get a jonin replacement, I am uncomfortable sending them out. For all our failure as Path to Victory-equse power for Hazō, everyone looks to him for tactics.

faflec · May 2, 2017

Kiba said:
First, ask permission. Then, speak about classified info. We don't want the QM misreading that and doing it out of order.

Yeah, good point. Lazy me only quotes the changed parts.

Ask permission to speak about the recent meeting in front of Minami/Akane.

Ask for some details on the Bird Summon such that the Pangolins can more quickly find and deliver said information to Leaf.

Jiraiya can delegate the information to Nakamura if needed (pretty sure Nakamura was still there).

Enjou · May 2, 2017

Vecht said:
I think you are being unnecessarily combative here, and dare I say it, irrational.

Combative - I can be combative as a debater sometimes. Don't take it personally or anything. I don't think I was being so here, but oh well.
Irrational - I will deny this. I'm just weighing a different set of priorities here compared to you. I would very much like to get a list of seals, unfortunately I very much think that we simply won't get one at this time and that trying to do so will likely be counterproductive and potentially harmful. Jiraiya is almost certainly not going to have the patience for us being research-minded right now, and the people who he'd normally send us to will almost certainly be unavailable. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but this really does seem like a situation where asking isn't really a good option.

Also, to be frank, I think you're somewhat emotionally invested in this idea yourself, so that may factor into your thinking. And I'm not impugning on your motives or anything either, but that can affect things - I've had the same problem myself at times.

It isn't that we want to do seal research on the run per se, but that just having the information gives us time to munchkin seals in real time while we're out doing things in game time. If we have to wait until we return (which could well be several updates) that means a month or two that we -- the thread -- didn't spend thinking about this. And when it comes time to actually put ideas into practice when the shit hits the fan, we will regret not having spent an insignificant amount of time to get the information now.

To be clear, I already realized that you meant this. I just don't think it's as big of a deal as you do, especially considering we still have all our other stuff to try to munchkin ideas out of.

A better strategy might be to ask Minami if there's anywhere that we can get some prepared seals for missions (beyond the usual things like explosive tags and storage seals) that would be open right now, and if so go get some and ask for specs. Like I said, I imagine there's got to be some kind of 24/7 armory/shop for ninja who get sudden missions in the dead of night. Might still not pan out, but better than trying to bother Jiraiya or other bigwigs when they're going to be busy.

Vecht said:
Just to clarify, I don't question Enjou's motives at all here, nor would I. I simply think he's wrong, being persistently wrong, and I have given reasons why. However, I have been known to be a little more forceful than necessary in the past on issues like this, so perhaps I'm doing so here and now, and if so I do apologize.

Yeah, no worries, I know you didn't mean anything by it.

EDIT - Also, I'm getting tired and it's time for bed. G'night everyone.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

I've got 99 quests, I've finished one