Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Why are you against memorization? It seems like the sort of thing we could probably hammer out in an hour or so in game, yet opens up many possibilities.
My problem with memorizing whole books, particularly in the methods described, is lookup time. If we're trying to remember something from the middle or end of a text, we would have to roll through the whole thing. It could be useful for reproducing a text, but we have better things to do than act as sub-par human printing press.
Creating mnemonics, OTOH, could be more useful.
Creating mnemonics, OTOH, could be more useful.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
I'm not sure why you'd want to rely on fallible normal memory instead of perfect muscle memory? Encoding things into iron nerve allows Hazou to (in theory) go back and check his recall of material.
We could encode each page as a seperate sequence preceded by the page number. If you wanted to find something in the middle of a book just go to a sequence that starts with a page number near the middle.
What situations would require perfect memorisation, in your opinion?
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
This can be solved via indexing. So, don't memorize the whole book in chuncks, memorize it in pages. Then, we can just read the appropriate page.
Here's a few possibilities
- We need to report exactly what someone said or wrote because there's a hidden message we'll need to decode
- There's a very technical document which will take substantially longer to understand than to simply read (this is my understanding of our situation right now)
- We'd be able to recreate books or messages (without expensive or tracible paper) without fallible memory so others can get the source text, rather than our misremembering
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
This was the reasoning behind my suggestion to start off each "recording session" with a set of verbal "tags" -- allow easier lookup when we need to reference the material later.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
I'd probably prefer a non-verbal tags for some things, since verbal tags would kind of wreck any chance at stealth in the recording process.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
In addition to what @Radvic said, it's less about perfectly memorizing a thing and more about being able to guard against mistaken or lost memories.
"Wait, what were the clauses of the Hot Springs DMZ treaty again?"
"Hmm, was the initial population size of Leaf 2000 ninja, or 2200 ninja?"
"Here's the exact phrasing the informant used, let's see if we can't detect a hidden message"
For comparison, think about how hard it would be to plan for this quest if we didn't have the preserved archive of all the things the players and QMs have said.
Mnemonic Plan:
Use a tree based index for memory lookup.
Each node has a base gesture associated with it.
Each node has the following actions:
1. List children: start the gesture in a particular way cascades into the gestures for each child node
2. Examine value: start the gesture in another way and you mouth out whatever note you stored in the node.
Command would be path to desired node followed by action gesture.
Input is on one hand, output on the other.
This expands it from memorizing books to a general note-taking strategy.
Use a tree based index for memory lookup.
Each node has a base gesture associated with it.
Each node has the following actions:
1. List children: start the gesture in a particular way cascades into the gestures for each child node
2. Examine value: start the gesture in another way and you mouth out whatever note you stored in the node.
Command would be path to desired node followed by action gesture.
Input is on one hand, output on the other.
This expands it from memorizing books to a general note-taking strategy.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Agreed. The point stands, though.
- Location
- Yes.
Context.
We're in an enemy camp and have maybe a week before we're kicked out.
We want to read books, and get the information from them.
One week is not enough time to memorize all the books we want, using the normal method of read + memorize.
One week is enough time to copy the books we want, and read them the proper way (your method) over time later.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
I'll note that I'm still mildly undecided on if we should pursue it now or not, because I'm not sure if the benefit of being able to memorize the history book outweighs the cost of Leaf knowing we can do this, and knowing our cipher.
I like it. My main concern is that I want to be able to encode things in the field without needing to hide both hands, and I think this would require both. (we'd also need to put the "read" action tag as we record something)
- Location
- USA
Here's my prior post on the matter. How much the infosec part matters depends on Kabuto, how much his knowledge reflects leaf knowledge, and his loyalty status.
The phoneme connection is a good shortcut that avoids most of the grunt work. It works as an audio player, but the problem is that audiobooks take far, far longer to listen to than it takes to actually read books, and Hazou also needs to be making noise for it to work.
Even just spelling the phonemes by hand is going to take just about the same time as speaking them. We need data compression, and that as I stated will take some significant investment.
The phoneme connection is a good shortcut that avoids most of the grunt work. It works as an audio player, but the problem is that audiobooks take far, far longer to listen to than it takes to actually read books, and Hazou also needs to be making noise for it to work.
Even just spelling the phonemes by hand is going to take just about the same time as speaking them. We need data compression, and that as I stated will take some significant investment.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
I mean, we can always make a different, second method once we have time. Though, I'm currently unconvinced if such a method exists.
Yeah, I've been editing the post. I actually came to some of the same conclusions (input/output on diff hands)
Another problem is that we don't have a way to forget/replace outdated chains. If we say, add a new child to an existing list, we might forget which version is the most up to date.
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- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
I'm unclear how we can make input and output be different, given how Iron Nerve works (memorize past motion whole-sale).
- Location
- USA
Here's one:
And if MFD speaks Japanese then we can always encode kanji.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
That is probably a good idea. Or we could ask someone to teach us or read a book on shorthand, and just copy the different symbols they have into hand gestures.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Well, here's a couple options for encoding things. I'll maintain these as people offer suggestions, and I'll ask anyone who writes an action plan to reference the winning encoding plan.
[] Encoding Plan: None
We're in the middle of hostile territory, potentially under observation, and time is precious. Don't bother trying to make a memorization technique, it'll just waste time and reveal more about our bloodline. We can probably make a better one when we're not under these constraints anyways if we want one.
[X] Encoding Plan: Mouthing
Keep it simple. mouth "elephant *book title* page *number* *text of page*" while reading a book.
[X] Encoding Plan: Simple phonetic encoding
Go through all the sounds in whatever language Hazou speaks. mouth "elephant," then say the sound (quietly), then make a one-handed gesture (with each hand) as the symbol for that sound. Memorize all the sounds (should be ~30-50 of them?). When reading something we want to memorize, sign "elephant *book title* page *number* *text of page*" in the phonetic alphabet created discretely with our left hand.
I think there are valid reasons for each of these plans. Here's my pro-con breakdown:
[] Encoding Plan: None
We're in the middle of hostile territory, potentially under observation, and time is precious. Don't bother trying to make a memorization technique, it'll just waste time and reveal more about our bloodline. We can probably make a better one when we're not under these constraints anyways if we want one.
[X] Encoding Plan: Mouthing
Keep it simple. mouth "elephant *book title* page *number* *text of page*" while reading a book.
[X] Encoding Plan: Simple phonetic encoding
Go through all the sounds in whatever language Hazou speaks. mouth "elephant," then say the sound (quietly), then make a one-handed gesture (with each hand) as the symbol for that sound. Memorize all the sounds (should be ~30-50 of them?). When reading something we want to memorize, sign "elephant *book title* page *number* *text of page*" in the phonetic alphabet created discretely with our left hand.
I think there are valid reasons for each of these plans. Here's my pro-con breakdown:
- None Pros:
- Doesn't reveal more about our bloodline
- Saves time for other things
- None Cons:
- Doesn't get to quickly memorize things right now
- Mouthing Pros:
- Doesn't make sounds while creating tonight
- Really simple, unlikely to forget anything on how to work it
- Mouthing Cons:
- We use our mouth for a lot of things, might cause problems with accidentally going down an IN pathway
- Prevents talking while memorizing or recalling
- Limited by the speed we can move our mouths
- Simple phonetic encoding Pros:
- Able to discretely memorize any conversation or book we can hide either hand in while reading/listening
- Difficult for others to decode
- Simple phonetic encoding Cons:
- Makes sound while developing tonight
- Likely going to take an hour or two to create before use
- Requires remembering ~30-50 sounds and their handsigns
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
For instance:
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/7528343/
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/7528132/
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/7527802/
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/7527667/
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/7527243/
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/posts/7527119/
etc. There are a few more, but yes, most posts there were bad.
If your sole reason for closing off communications with someone is that they closed off communications with you, then surely you can see the problem? This kind of logic gives anyone who joins SV after this the same impression that you got of them; people that closed off, ignore the other side, and mock them in their enclave. Besides, some of the times you make mistakes. If you take a position that prevents people from convincing you that the position is wrong, you can't fix those mistakes.
E: also, you shouldn't be expected to wade through to abandon the argument, but you should be expected to wade through to declare it without virtue.
Say you want to encode a node on a path you can remember.
Start memorizing
Make the handsigns of the nodes in the path. Make the handsign for value. Mouth out the value you want to store (or encode it on the output hand in whatever cypher we come up with).
In order to encode the children of a node:
Start memorizing
On input hand, make handsign for path to desired node, make the "children" handsign, then on output hand make the signs of that node's children.
To lookup the value of a node with a known path:
Use Iron Nerve to select the memorized action that would have you make the handsigns of the path then the value handsign. Once the input cascade is done, pay attention to what completes the action on the output hand.