They're all 50 chakra, so far at least.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
It still seems like you know something I don't, but I am now confused about how these two statements are consistent with each other:
Game theory needs both players to be making rational choices under the same ruleset to work.
Cost to Earthshape the rune.
The infusion costs 50 and the ES costs 60 (startup/shutdown) + 240 (4 hours of ES time) for a total of 350.
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Thanks, that clears it up for me. I'd just been thinking about infusion costs. (The rest can be done in advance, so if we have enough prep time it doesn't directly compete for chakra with the infusions)
For RER 2.0? Not so much, that shit weighs like 1500kg. It seems dubious that Hazou can transport it.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Certain game theory scenarios require both parties to be game theorists to work, I'd contend. It's perfectly possible to extend the initial, streamlined versions of these scenarios into larger, more complex ones that account for more external factors. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that figuring out how to apply those toy scenarios to complex situations with people who are neither legible nor mathematically simple is the actual meat and potatoes of game theory.
All this to say, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater here. Yes, even though Orochimaru is particularly logical he's still far from an idealized game theory agent, but that doesn't mean that game theory logic can't be applied to him. If we think we can approximate the ways in which he differs from an idealized game theory agent, it should be possible to construct a variant game theory scenario for his particular case.
On the other side of the coin, as it pertains to our deadman's switches, it is genuinely a question to be asked whether the value tradeoff is worth it. A deadman switch invariably trades off some % risk that it'll activate against some % risk of the thing you're trying to deter. We want to deter Orochimaru betraying us, and we're trading off part of the world's fighting chance against the Akatsuki. Just looking at it that way, the stakes are high enough that the value could point either way. The amount of deterrence we expect, versus the risk of activation we expect, weighted by the severity of each fail-state, ends up being a genuinely non-trivial equation.
The more you think Orochimaru is likely by default to betray us, the more valuable such a deterrence would seem. The less effective you think such a deadman's switch would be on Orochimaru (or rather, the assertion by Hazou that such a deadman's switch exists), the less valuable such a deterrence would seem. Depending on your model of Orochimaru it could make a lot of sense or no sense at all. If he's treacherous but reasonable, the deterrence is incredibly valuable. If he's untreacherous to begin with, it's pointless risk. If he's treacherous and unreasonable, it'd trigger and only make things worse. The game theory can still be applied, we just also have to debate these extra variables.
I'm gonna go on the side that give our /incredibly/ limited time & resources, deadman switches would be entirely a waste of time to implement.
It's just not worth it to consider counterfactuals in which Oro betrays us at this juncture.
He's dangerous and unpredictable. But so is just about literally everything else we do.
Also I'm like 80% certain that he would actually be pretty on board with recovering at least Jiraiya, even if he knows that Jiraiya would then turn the resources of leaf to oppose him.
Taking obvious precautions against him would not cause him to be less likely to kill use. If he wants to kill use then he will inherently believe in his own success regardless of how hard we signal that we can take him. If he wants to cooperate, then he will only get annoyed and be less forthcoming if we are visibly terrified / attempt anything obviously threatening.
It's just not worth it to consider counterfactuals in which Oro betrays us at this juncture.
He's dangerous and unpredictable. But so is just about literally everything else we do.
Also I'm like 80% certain that he would actually be pretty on board with recovering at least Jiraiya, even if he knows that Jiraiya would then turn the resources of leaf to oppose him.
Taking obvious precautions against him would not cause him to be less likely to kill use. If he wants to kill use then he will inherently believe in his own success regardless of how hard we signal that we can take him. If he wants to cooperate, then he will only get annoyed and be less forthcoming if we are visibly terrified / attempt anything obviously threatening.
I … don't think that's how Orochimaru will think? Like, yes, obviously he can kill us; but being aware that there are significant consequences for doing so will motivate him not to do it. We're not signalling that we can take him, we're signalling that if he kills us we'll metaphorically explode into a highly unpleasant and clingy smell (that is, make his life more difficult). It's the skunk principle.
Still very not a fan of this, but it's not a dealbreaker and it seems that other people like it. Can I suggest adding something about covering the Force Dome with ES so people don't find it, and also mentioning that we should research these as an SC? Both are hopefully obvious, but best to be sure.
Approve of this.
Very disapprove of this: concerned that this will make Orochimaru see us as a long-term liability and make him more likely to try to kill us if he wasn't already planning to. (Analogy; if someone threatens nuclear war in response to a less serious threat, you might go along with them in the short term, but in the long term the fact that they're willing to do that makes them someone you need to get rid of.)
Since Stompy's plan only covers a day and LeftHandMutant's covers more, so that we can do most of LeftHand's after Stompy's …
[X] Action Plan: Desperate Measures
- Location
- France
@Sir Stompy the chakra budget is being discussed, but what about the time budget ? Can we do research + make a Force Dome in a single day ?
I thought making a rune took a full day.
I thought making a rune took a full day.
Sure that works.
After being researched a single rune can be shaped (4 hours) and infused (10 minutes)
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm afraid Hazō still is not able to summon Cannai.A Cannai summoning interlude? 🙏
Thanks for the heads-up. Fixed.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Cannai is a chonky boi
Wait, like, even after levelling CR to 38? When did we test that? I don't think it's yet been voted into a plan … or do you just mean that we haven't yet tried at CR 38 and he couldn't last time we tried?
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
IIRC, the last plan that got voted through had something akin to "Try Summoning Cannai. If it doesn't work, level to 38 and try again."
Not obviously - you might be thinking of:
CR 38 was voted through in a training plan:
Even after CR 38? Or is this from CR 33.
We should be able to pay up to 619 CP at CR 38
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
.... does Cannai cost like 620 chakra points or more? Damn, he fat.
How the hell do these guys get summoned lol. Did the Sage forget to teach everyone the "Oh you have 20x more chakra" training technique or something? Does everyone but us just have some insanely high XP rate and some more potent chakra reserves sauce?
How the hell do these guys get summoned lol. Did the Sage forget to teach everyone the "Oh you have 20x more chakra" training technique or something? Does everyone but us just have some insanely high XP rate and some more potent chakra reserves sauce?
- Location
- United States
Noburi has got to be there anyway, unless you want to try the summoning without an Overdraw.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
No wonder why Cannai was so unimpressed woth the other Conclave Bosses. They're a whole rank or two below him, acting like they're gods
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
So if Goodest Boi is in the 55k- 89k XP range then the cost for that range is about 675 chakra points. Let's call it an even 700 for error.
Good news: that is like a fuckload of XP, and I think he would eat one or two of these Akatsuki guys alive, no question.
Bad news: We need snuncle bioseals to get a cool +200 chakra or something like that (if thats even possible) to do this on the timeline we have lol
Good news: that is like a fuckload of XP, and I think he would eat one or two of these Akatsuki guys alive, no question.
Bad news: We need snuncle bioseals to get a cool +200 chakra or something like that (if thats even possible) to do this on the timeline we have lol
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
"Orochimaru, I've come to bargain!"
(Or, alternatively)
🎵 "Cut me up into pieces, this is my last resort." 🎵