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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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T_of_A said:
@Sir Stompy, I think that this is too slow and not worth the chakra expenditure when we have ELF anyway.

I also think you're underestimating how hard it will be to dig that deep...
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Tunnel Excavation can do it in 2 minutes with <50 chakra.

Moving that much earth with ES shouldn't be a problem. A single cast and likely <1hr time. It's a brute force job, no fine detail required. It's the fine details that make runes take so long
 
Zampano said:
[X] Action Plan: The Short Haul


There is a chance to do some deeper research into the principles of Rune Difficulty here. If we do a prep day on PLTR 125 now, and then research "Persistent Runic HOWS" before doing a second prep day on PLTR 125, then we will be able to eyeball the veterancy transfer of having a prototype for a seal variant.

This is really useful information to have, even fuzzed by the Prep Day bins, because we are counting on some kind of delivery mechanism against Itachi et al. Unless the plan is to hit them with regular explosives, we will eventually need to combine our different seal variants. This research detour to Persistent Runic HOWS would isolate the marginal value of researching Remote Explosives before Remote EM, for example.

As an additional argument, a single research cycle was almost able to complete Runic HOWS at PS 19 without SSA. Hazo has increased his effective PS score by 60% since then: more than half-again his previous score.

Now, persistent Runic HOWS does have a bit of danger associated: there's no guarantee that anything that enters would ever stop glowing. So we would want to add verbiage to the plan that avoids any body parts entering the field. (Although that would certainly be a cool body modification…)
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In addition to the fact that prep day checks apparently don't account for veterancy (which I did not know) I'm not at all confident that persistent runic HOWS would actually provide veterancy for PLTRs. The motivation for PLTRs is that something very like the desired effect was produced by prototypes for TR125, which suggests that the effect might be easily permitted by MfD-physics. We have no corresponding data for runic HOWS and no reason to believe making something persistently glow might be easy. (For analogy, PLTRs are observing that lightning sometimes starts fires and saying "fire might be easily permitted, let's try to control it"; persistent runic HOWS are saying "light exists, let's try and make random things glow".)
 
Kyreneryk said:
In addition to the fact that prep day checks apparently don't account for veterancy (which I did not know) I'm not at all confident that persistent runic HOWS would actually provide veterancy for PLTRs. The motivation for PLTRs is that something very like the desired effect was produced by prototypes for TR125, which suggests that the effect might be easily permitted by MfD-physics. We have no corresponding data for runic HOWS and no reason to believe making something persistently glow might be easy. (For analogy, PLTRs are observing that lightning sometimes starts fires and saying "fire might be easily permitted, let's try to control it"; persistent runic HOWS are saying "light exists, let's try and make random things glow".)
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I just want to temper expectations here. The PLTR effect was the result of a runic failure --albeit a minor one.

Sealmasters do not try to replicate sealing failures, because they are not suicidal. Every past time we have voted it in in the past (I'm thinking of Reality Eaters) Hazou has overridden it.

I expect this to come back "Hard" in which case I plan to drop it forever and not try to revisit.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I just want to temper expectations here. The PLTR effect was the result of a runic failure --albeit a minor one.

Sealmasters do not try to replicate sealing failures, because they are not suicidal. Every past time we have voted it in in the past (I'm thinking of Reality Eaters) Hazou has overridden it.

I expect this to come back "Hard" in which case I plan to drop it forever and not try to revisit.
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As I've said before, I am relatively confident that the prohibition refers to replicating the mechanism of a failure, rather than replicating its effects. The Rift was the result of a sealing failure - not even a minor one! - and we've been happy to mess with that. Reality Eaters are an interesting counterpoint as another example of a failure-inspired seal/rune, but given that PLTRs are more distant from the original effect (e.g. fixed speedup) and take inspiration from a minor failure rather than a major one, I think Hazōpilot is unlikely to just veto them. (Also, Reality Eaters may have been just that Hazō had no idea how to achieve the effect any other way without actually trying to figure out how the seal failed and make a seal that does that on purpose, which is the suicidal thing.)

That said, I agree that if PLTR 125 comes back "Hard" it's probably not worth further investigation (obviously unless there are caveats like "Hazō thinks this would be much easier at a higher speedup rate"). Barring such caveats, the course of action I think would be wise after each possible result is:
  • Trivial: difficulty check higher-speedup PLTRs until we find one that's Easy, then research that.
  • Easy: research ASAP, on the same priority tier as Remote Explosives.
    • Bear in mind that it may not be safe to go into a TR with a PLTR speedup on you, in which case don't use it until after researching the Temporal Normalization Rune (preferably a continuous or reusable version).
  • Medium: put in the queue for research, but relatively low priority.
    • PLTR 125 would be extremely powerful (extra Supplemental every turn plus an unknown numerical bonus is my guess) but probably not battle-winning by itself, and if we use it against Akatsuki it leaks to Oro that time manipulation is possible (if he hasn't already thought of it). It's the higher speedups that would really be game-changers, and we've already got lots of less fraught runes in our Medium-tier queue.
  • Hard: abandon line of research.
 
Kyreneryk said:
As I've said before, I am relatively confident that the prohibition refers to replicating the mechanism of a failure, rather than replicating its effects. The Rift was the result of a sealing failure - not even a minor one! - and we've been happy to mess with that. Reality Eaters are an interesting counterpoint as another example of a failure-inspired seal/rune, but given that PLTRs are more distant from the original effect (e.g. fixed speedup) and take inspiration from a minor failure rather than a major one, I think Hazōpilot is unlikely to just veto them. (Also, Reality Eaters may have been just that Hazō had no idea how to achieve the effect any other way without actually trying to figure out how the seal failed and make a seal that does that on purpose, which is the suicidal thing.)

That said, I agree that if PLTR 125 comes back "Hard" it's probably not worth further investigation (obviously unless there are caveats like "Hazō thinks this would be much easier at a higher speedup rate"). Barring such caveats, the course of action I think would be wise after each possible result is:
  • Trivial: difficulty check higher-speedup PLTRs until we find one that's Easy, then research that.
  • Easy: research ASAP, on the same priority tier as Remote Explosives.
    • Bear in mind that it may not be safe to go into a TR with a PLTR speedup on you, in which case don't use it until after researching the Temporal Normalization Rune (preferably a continuous or reusable version).
  • Medium: put in the queue for research, but relatively low priority.
    • PLTR 125 would be extremely powerful (extra Supplemental every turn plus an unknown numerical bonus is my guess) but probably not battle-winning by itself, and if we use it against Akatsuki it leaks to Oro that time manipulation is possible (if he hasn't already thought of it). It's the higher speedups that would really be game-changers, and we've already got lots of less fraught runes in our Medium-tier queue.
  • Hard: abandon line of research.
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This looks like a pretty good plan to me. I endorse it barring unexpected revelations about other stuff we're looking at.
 
[X] Training Plan Hazou: PS Step
[X] Sealing SOP: Runemaster
 
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_The_Bomb said:
I don't suppose the helpful clerk who was there alongside Ruka mentioned anything on the topic….?
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No, sorry.

faflec said:
Any chance this can be put into the rulesdoc (e.g., in an open field, a Zone is around a 30m diameter area)?
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Done!
Article:
Locations are divided into zones. Zones are of abstract and varying size, as per QM judgment for a specific scene; outside in open terrain a zone tends to be around 30m across, whereas inside it might be a single room. We aren't going to track this permanently; if you have a fight in a particular warehouse on in-game Tuesday and then again on in-game Wednesday we might use a different number and/or arrangement of zones each time.
 
[X] Action Plan: The Short Haul
[X] Training Plan Hazou: PS Step

I looked over the new version of the SOP and I don't think I have anything new to say about it. I echo the concerns about how to balance prep days and DoB for stuff like chuunin seals (for instance, I see the value in letting Hazou slot a project into an off-track slot so long as he has such and such prep days, but the current phrasing can create the impression that, say, if Hazou has notes or veterancy he will prefer prep days to DoB when both options are available, which I think is inefficient) and I echo my previous concern that we may not always want to spend FP on progress rerolls (stockpiling FP could be an important resource to conserve for tough fights, off the top of my head) and so the SOP should ideally cover that edge case, but overall I don't have a problem with it from a safety perspective.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
[X] Action Plan: The Short Haul
[X] Training Plan Hazou: PS Step

I looked over the new version of the SOP and I don't think I have anything new to say about it. I echo the concerns about how to balance prep days and DoB for stuff like chuunin seals (for instance, I see the value in letting Hazou slot a project into an off-track slot so long as he has such and such prep days, but the current phrasing can create the impression that, say, if Hazou has notes or veterancy he will prefer prep days to DoB when both options are available, which I think is inefficient) and I echo my previous concern that we may not always want to spend FP on progress rerolls (stockpiling FP could be an important resource to conserve for tough fights, off the top of my head) and so the SOP should ideally cover that edge case, but overall I don't have a problem with it from a safety perspective.
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'Pilot will minimize cycle length if left to his own devices.
The Previous Version said:
If we are dual-tracking projects, make an effort align the prep requirements so that we can minimize cycle length. However, note that Hazou can ignore one DoB inflicted Consequence, so if prep days do not align for whatever reason (mostly for researching a rune and a seal at the same time), extending the length of one of the cycles is preferred to abandoning the project.

If Hazou pivots to researching an easier version of one of the seal/runes after the first version of the idea is too difficult, extend the cycle rather than dropping prep on the first cycle.
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Paperclipped said:
'Pilot will also already do this
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[X] Action Plan: The Short Haul

So, a bit late to bring this up, but this part:
Sir Stompy said:
  • Set up a research base
    • Place a TR140 far underground wrapped in ELF explosives. The AoE should be flush with the ground. Build the base there. Earthshape out an area of accelerated time.
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Isn't Kagome going to veto this? Research bases with significantly inhibited mobility and seals/runes in close proximity are a no-no, for sealing failure reasons. Though I guess its fine if we do no infusions in it.

Not really a big deal; if he vetos it he vetos it. I'm just saying.
 
Buggy said:
[X] Action Plan: The Short Haul

So, a bit late to bring this up, but this part:

Isn't Kagome going to veto this? Research bases with significantly inhibited mobility and seals/runes in close proximity are a no-no, for sealing failure reasons. Though I guess its fine if we do no infusions in it.
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No he's not, we just do the infusions elsewhere, as you said. We were perfectly fine doing this in Iron, I have no clue why it would be different now.
Inferno Vulpix said:
(stockpiling FP could be an important resource to conserve for tough fights, off the top of my head) and so the SOP should ideally cover that edge case, but overall I don't have a problem with it from a safety perspective.
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Forgot in my previous post, but this seems like a situation in which we'd want to override the SOP.
 
Sir Stompy said:
No he's not, we just do the infusions elsewhere, as you said. We were perfectly fine doing this in Iron, I have no clue why it would be different now.
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Fair.
Sorry, I don't really have a good understanding of how research is split between gruntwork and infusions, I thought that having to do infusions at a distant location would be a larger issue.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Always use DoB tracks if available, offtrack easier projects if they are not.
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Added line about using DoB since there seemed to be concern
Sir Stompy said:
With notes or significant veterancy: Both full prep and DoB, Invoke, reroll -3 or worse
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Added Invoke to rolling Jiriaya-tier seals for the first time (I expect us to never use the actual SOP when researching Jiriaya-tier seals but it's better expected value than rerolling a -3 or worse)
 
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Vote closed
  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by eaglejarl on Sep 29, 2024 at 5:18 PM, finished with 110 posts and 18 votes.
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  • Voting
    • Adhoc vote count started by Sir Stompy on Oct 2, 2024 at 7:05 AM, finished with 121 posts and 19 votes.
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    @eaglejarl it looks like the automatic tally is fucked up. This should be correct
     
    Sir Stompy said:
    Adhoc vote count started by Sir Stompy on Oct 2, 2024 at 7:05 AM, finished with 121 posts and 19 votes.
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    @eaglejarl it looks like the automatic tally is fucked up. This should be correct
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    Thank you. Unfortunately...

    PSA: I have to travel unexpectedly. Sunday will be an interlude.

    By default, I will leave voting closed and the current plan can happen for Thursday. If a lot of people chime in that they would like it to be open then we'll look at re-evaluating.
     
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