I know it's not how this works, but your post made me think of this story way back when. Specifically, Black.
Yeah, I did think of that: that if Itachi can chain his predictions, he'd be able to scale up his precognition to arbitrary time horizons. (Suppose that your precognition time horizon is one minute. Commit to scratch the symbol "X" into the ground if your precognition tells you that some specific event will happen in the future. Then, turn on your precognition. Do you see the symbol "X" appearing on the ground one minute into the future? Then you know that future-you saw X happening, meaning X happens within two minutes. Scale up, and you can see indefinitely many minutes into the future.)

But, again, Itachi having this sort of ability seems inconsistent with the current state of affairs. I think the whole "visions grow hazier the further into the future you predict" thing foils this: he wouldn't see "X" carved into the ground, he'd see "X" and "Y" and "Z", and a ton more symbols.

Hm, I'd guess that by the same logic as the ambush defense, it might still let him see any big-enough events? Like, if the Five break out within 5 years, he'd be able to see that! Maybe that's a source of some of his Forbidden Lore.

(Although this is kind of good news, too: if he can make these predictions, this implies the Five don't actually get unsealed in the near future! Because they'd be able to exploit this precognitive communication channel to mind-whammy Itachi and upload themselves into the present from the hypothetical futures he foresaw. Since he doesn't appear to be a suborned agent of some future horror (or does he?)...)
 
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Shrooms said:
[X] (MARS loadout) Stack Buffs Punch Hard
Word Count: ~200
  • Chain 1 (Worn)
    • Yuno (or next highest initiative) activates top of chain, propagates through rest of the party's seals immediately.
      • Banshee Slayers
      • Banshees (slightly away from body, and far from any organs, such as legs/feet or hanging off of clothes.)
      • Pangolin Pepper Macerators
      • Strobelight Seals
  • Chain 2 (Worn)
    • Same as Chain 1, but you only activate the loadout on yourself.
  • Chain 3 (Dropped or Thrown)
    • Instant visual cover if needed
      • A handful of Macerators full of sand activating simultaneously.
      • Storage seal that deploys caltrops within the sand cloud.
      • Goo bomb within cloud
  • Chain 4 (Thrown)
    • A sudden firestorm if needed (presumably just an environmental aspect.)
      • A handful of Macerators full of burning sawdust.
  • Chain 5 (Dropped or Thrown)
    • Explosives
      • Leave two explosives in a zone or two zones, activate with a MARS when outside the zone. Most ninja are not accustomed to Seals activating from afar, which lets us control space.
  • Chain 6/7 (Dropped or Thrown)
    • Earth/Air Dome
      • Similarly to Chain 5, leave Dome seals where enemies or allies could step near them, activate from afar with ARS or MARS as a Supplemental. Could block attacks or trap enemies for a round as they need to break through the wall or find the seal.
Revisiting MARSCATEARS loadouts.

Repeating Implosion Seal
MARS1Goo Bomb1
MARS2Implosion1 stores
MARS3Implosion1 releases
MARS4Implosion1 stores
MARS5Implosion1 releases
MARS6Implosion1 stores
MARS7Implosion1 releases
MARS8Implosion1 stores
MARS9Implosion1 releases
MARS10Implosion1 stores
Explosion1-
Goo Bomb sticks the package to the ground, securing it in the zone it is activated. Wrap loadout in leather, clasp in metal or cover in granite to protect from implosions. Millisecond delay between chaining MARS is more than enough for air to reach equilibrium before the next Implosion activation. Explosion destroys package and releases last stored air in Implosion seal.

Ranged Repeating Implosion Seal
MARS1-
MARS2-
MARS3-
MARS4Goo Bomb1
MARS5Implosion1 stores
MARS6Implosion1 releases
MARS7Implosion1 stores
MARS8Implosion1 releases
MARS9Implosion1 stores
MARS10Implosion1 releases
Any seal-
MARS have 25m activation range. Loadout is dropped from 3 zones above the target, tied to spool with first three MARS seals spaced out to start the chain.

Ranged Goo Bombs
MARS1-
MARS2-
MARS3-
MARS4Goo Bomb1
MARS5Goo Bomb2
MARS6Goo Bomb3
MARS7Goo Bomb4
MARS8Goo Bomb5
MARS9Goo Bomb6
MARS10Goo Bomb7
Goo Bomb8 or Explosion1-
Goo Bombs release near weightless, sticky goo in a half dome. Not sure how hard it is to stop earlier Goo Bombs in chain from gunking up later seals. Not effective on anyone rolling more than Athletics 72. Might be good for wasting chakra before temporary retreat to wait out buffs.

Ranged CHAOS Loadout
MARS1-
MARS2-
MARS3-
MARS4Goo Bomb1
MARS5Pangolin Pepper Macerator1
MARS6Banshee1
MARS7Strobelight1
MARS8Implosion1 stores
MARS9Implosion1 releases
MARS10Any seal, Strobelight2 or Implosion1 stores
Any seal, Strobelight3 or Explosion1-
 
Maybe worth considering that Itachi was severely weakened at that point.
I guess. And if I were to put my tinfoil hat on, then obviously Zabuza was acting on the orders of an Itachi-suborned Akatsuki pawn when he attempted to tank the Mist/Leaf alliance just as they were about to share the Nagi Island information:
Subconclusion: Captain Zabuza here purely of his own accord? Laughable but possible.

The figure in the shadows?

Possibility: Words from the dark, "Ren is selling us out to those Leaf monsters in order to secure her position and we must save Mist from her machinations." Highly feasible.

Conclusion: Captain Zabuza was here to destroy the alliance, probably at the behest of one or more senior Mist politicians, against the clear wishes of his Kage, and he was being partly driven by his grief and anger.
That "figure in the shadows"? An Itachi victim! And it's only thanks to us, the Out monstrosity meddling into the EN's events, that the day was saved! Something Itachi's scaled-up strategic precognition couldn't have predicted at all!

It all fits!
 
That doesn't function as evidence, it's the same problem as 'what if Itachi has extremely powerful mind control' earlier. Can you give anything specific for Ami having the relevant level of Tower access at the time of any of the Tower leaks?
What would she need Tower access for? To figure out that Akane caused that EM storm? Or that Asuma nuked Isan? Or maybe when Team Akane was going on that mission? She has no need to go to the Tower, she could find all of that out from Kei. Or she could figure it out herself like Kei, Shika, and Mari did.

But if the whole Tower access thing is still needed, then the fact that Ami was the AMITY ambassador, one of the KEI heads, and a dozen other roles means that she would have frequent cause to meet with the Hokage or be doing things in the Tower.
 
What would she need Tower access for? To figure out that Akane caused that EM storm? Or that Asuma nuked Isan? Or maybe when Team Akane was going on that mission? She has no need to go to the Tower, she could find all of that out from Kei. Or she could figure it out herself like Kei, Shika, and Mari did.

But if the whole Tower access thing is still needed, then the fact that Ami was the AMITY ambassador, one of the KEI heads, and a dozen other roles means that she would have frequent cause to meet with the Hokage or be doing things in the Tower.
Yeah, these are fair points. Ami was definitely capable, but unless she betrayed her seeming core motive of Kei or thought this would be best for Kei in the long run, I'm not sure what reason Ami has for doing this.
 
NB: Hidan has previously been able to sneak through Leaf to surprise Hazo, but the Sarutobi clan lord's personal quarters are a step up from there.

Regardless of the fact that this was not inside Leaf, "he successfully sneaked in, meaning that no one noticed at the time, but no one had any particular reasons to look for it" is much easier than "the place where the crime happened was carefully examined by Leaf's best investigators, including Canvass who's an order of magnitude better than Inuzuka dogs who are already supposed to be good at this, and yet nothing suspicious was found at all"

However, there is another possibility to explain the shirt "perfect crime" if Itachi controls Hidan. Hidan did break into the Sarutobi compound to retrieve the shirt, claiming that he was following the blood scent; everyone knows that.

Afterwards, he resummoned her and learned that neither she nor the "spoiled Inuzuka mutts" had been able to find any suspicious scents in Asuma's bedroom or in the laundry area where Hidan had found the shirt (except, of course, Hidan's scent, which raises her hackles for reasons she can't articulate through the gestalt field).

What if Hidan just grabbed any dirty shirt from Asuma, and put the blood on it at that time? The main problem I have with this theory is that from my understanding, the shirt retrieving break in happened right before Hidan went to the Tower to confront Asuma (though it's not said explicitly as far as I know). If Hidan put the blood just then, Asuma would probably have noticed that the blood was not dry, and pointed it out as another reason the whole thing makes no sense.

Hidan turned the sleeve over, showing a faint, darkened speckling on the underside of the sleeve's cuff.

Is the speck small enough that Asuma can't even tell it's fresh? That's possible, especially considering that the scene mentions Asuma looking at the shirt from afar but not holding it to examine. Inuzuka Yamato probably had a better look into it, but was only asked whether the blood matched the vial. He knew very little about the situation, so I don't see him volunteering observations he was not asked for in front of Akatsuki. Actually, it could be useful to ask him how old he thinks the blood was, he might remember. Or did he die in the fighting?



My theory is that he also whammied Hidan. Genjutsu is a noted weakness of his and witnesses saw him acting weird about Jashin.
When/which witnesses saw this?

Maybe you were thinking of Yuno saying that Hidan's behavior was inconsistent with what Hidan taught her about Jashinism. Which might indeed be a clue. Or it could simply be that Yuno didn't understand Hidan's teachings as well as she thought, or that Hidan was mad enough about loosing the jounin aura contest that he wanted Asuma's head immediately more than he wanted a great fight.

"But then, the Great Prophet said Lord Jashin had guided him to the Hokage. He was confident enough to kill. How is that possible?"

She sat down next to Noburi, cradling Satsuko in her arms.

"And then… and then… Noburi, he didn't fight the Hokage. Fighting a worthy foe is one of the holiest things in Jashinism, alongside blood sacrifice and peppermint tea. We live in the age of AMITY, where even the Great Prophet doesn't get to walk up to strong people and challenge them to a deathmatch for religious reasons. This time, he had the law on his side, his worthy foe was right in front of him, he even had Kakuzu to make sure the small fry didn't get in the way… and he didn't fight. He just ended it and ran."

She looked at him almost pleadingly.

"I don't understand, Noburi. Everything that just happened… it doesn't make sense with the things the Great Prophet himself taught me. I hold Lord Jashin in my heart and that'll never change, but what if there are things the Great Prophet taught me wrong? And if he did, why would he do that?"
 
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But I think the current state of affairs is inconsistent with Itachi having long-term total mind control. Even if it's limited to a few targets at a time... I dunno, I have a feel we'd be living in a very different world. The Akatsuki would have deeply-rooted control over the EN, not just based on biggest-stick diplomacy.

Even if Itachi can control just one target at a time? Even if it doesn't work on people with high Resolve / high Chakra Reserves / high XP / anything that prevents him from directly controlling most S-rankers?

Yes, I grant you that the more rules I have to make up for the world to remain consistent, the less likely the whole theory is. Still, do you think it's so unlikely that it's not even worth bringing up with Kei?

What about something close to his canon ability: one order, that will trigger when some condition is met. Though this also requires Itachi to have access to memory erasing to make Kurenai forget things she did for him (is this why Kurenai was described as unstable? though Asuma's death does explain it well enough). But Mari already has something like that so it's on the table. Maybe Itachi has a more powerful version of it, he is the genjutsu grandmaster.

(Say, the BotG? Never would've happened, because they would've mind-controlled the villages into failing to coordinate.)

"For what it's worth," Pain said softly, "we really did try to take the path of least suffering. We had the firepower to level villages. We had the knowledge to trigger a new world war." He looked pointedly between the clan heads and the Mizukage.

"Either would have made our work much easier."

Pain says there are many things they could have done to increase their chances, but didn't want to do. Maybe this is just one of them. They thought they had victory already in their grasp, and were blindsided by the villages ganging up so well, Leaf sharing skywalkers with everyone, etc. It's plausible that by the time they realized how bad it was, it was already too late to address even with mind control, especially if they were all busy with preparations for the ritual
 
Even if it doesn't work on people with high Resolve / high Chakra Reserves / high XP / anything that prevents him from directly controlling most S-rankers?
Sure, I think we can safely assume it doesn't work on other high-end S-rankers. But the theories discussed imply that it works on elite jounin, at least, like Kurenai. I'd say being able to compromise those would be enough to basically suborn the whole village system.
Yes, I grant you that the more rules I have to make up for the world to remain consistent, the less likely the whole theory is. Still, do you think it's so unlikely that it's not even worth bringing up with Kei?
Oh, I'm not at all against discussing that with Kei!
Pain says there are many things they could have done to increase their chances, but didn't want to do. Maybe this is just one of them. They thought they had victory already in their grasp, and were blindsided by the villages ganging up so well, Leaf sharing skywalkers with everyone, etc.
"The path of least suffering", not "the path of least agency violations" – mind-controlling people seems pretty tame by their standards.

Using this sort of ability proactively would've likely let them not be blindsided by the villages. That's my point: that if Itachi could compromise people at a glance so deeply, they'd have had so much intel that something like the BotG Alliance would never have had even the chance to take off. Like, he could've whammied Ren. That would have been that.

Hypothesizing some limitations like "only works on one target" is indeed a way to make the theory work. But as you said, such details get a penalty.
 
What if Hidan just grabbed any dirty shirt from Asuma, and put the blood on it at that time? The main problem I have with this theory is that from my understanding, the shirt retrieving break in happened right before Hidan went to the Tower to confront Asuma (though it's not said explicitly as far as I know). If Hidan put the blood just then, Asuma would probably have noticed that the blood was not dry, and pointed it out as another reason the whole thing makes no sense.
Wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Hidan had some utility jutsu which could be used to make bloodstains dry faster. Maybe a blood-specific analogue to Earthshaping, inefficient in real combat but versatile for gory theatrics. Oro's dossier mentioned uncertainty about how much of the wound-mirroring technique's setup was really necessary. Similarly, given that it was some sort of plot with Itachi pulling the strings, would almost be more surprising if it didn't involve Itachi finding some clever, easily-overlooked way to apply Hidan's existing powers.
Genjutsuing someone to overlook a single subtle detail tends to be easier and more effective than full-immersion dream worlds, right? "Apply the blood sample to the stolen laundry, dry it out, then forget that you did so - the stain was already there when you found it."
"The path of least suffering", not "the path of least agency violations" – mind-controlling people seems pretty tame by their standards.
But breaking a potential international alliance by stirring up otherwise needless dissent would mean directly increasing the exact sort of suffering they're trying to end, so I could believe they'd be reluctant to do so just to hedge against what seemed at the time like a long-shot contingency.
 
I think Itachi is the most plausible suspect, but I'm going to entertain a possible alternative for the sake of thoroughness.
"To figure out a strange plot, look at what happens, then ask who benefits"
Rock benefits.

In order for Rock to pull it off, they'd need two things: Akane's blood and the ability to infiltrate the Sarutobi compound and leave no scent.

Instead of a tower mole, what if Rock sourced the blood from Akane's body? We already suspect Rock was responsible for Akane's murder due to the proximity to the border.

We don't know much about Rock's infiltration ability so let's assume they have the capability for now.

The problem is would Rock have had the right intel to know that framing Asuma would get him killed by Hidan?

Rock would need to know that Hidan was tracking Akane. Was it widely known that we'd set Hidan on the trail?

Placing a bloody shirt in Asuma's room wouldn't work to frame him unless the perpetrator specifically knew that Hidan was tracking Akane's traces via blood.
 
Rock benefits.


We don't know much about Rock's infiltration ability so let's assume they have the capability for now.

Sure,

The Atae can animate small objects for a short period, for purposes of espionage or combat.

Any ninja who could animate objects could have planted it in Asuma's room. I don't believe they are the only one's in the world, because the Arachnids can also manipulate silk.

And restricting your enemies movement by manipulating clothes in combat or before sounds useful.

Rock would need to know that Hidan was tracking Akane. Was it widely known that we'd set Hidan on the trail?

Maybe they planted it because they hoped Hazou or the Inuzuka would find it? Cause distrust between Hokage and clans.

But suddenly Hidan.

Maybe their source was Grandmaster F?
Mara
Summoner: Grandmaster F of Cloud's Raiyoke clan. Don't screw with her, she's terrifying. Used to be allies of the Capybaras, split two generations ago; dunno why. Masters of temptation, subversion, misdirection. Shit fighters. Toads have been on neutral terms for decades, but there's a kill-on-sight order for any Mara found in Toad territory. They're on the coast, stuck between Toad (S), Pangolin (W), and Monkey (N). Bad place to be, if you ask me.
Masters of temptation, subversion, misdirection.They're on the coast, stuck between Toad (S), Pangolin (W), and Monkey (N). Bad place to be, if you ask me.
Masters of temptation, subversion, misdirection.


She also came back with a lot of Yakuza (Kakuzu) information and is a known Hedonist (Jashin cult):
Apparently, the Raikage had had one of his desk-splitting incidents when he heard. Then, two years later, Grandmaster F had turned up as suddenly as she'd left, bringing with her a complete report on the clandestine activities of the yakuza gambling houses… of every country in the known world.
 
Placing a bloody shirt in Asuma's room wouldn't work to frame him unless the perpetrator specifically knew that Hidan was tracking Akane's traces via blood.
Strictly speaking all they'd need to know was that the matter was being thoroughly investigated, and that Leaf had some way to identify the blood - which wouldn't be hard to guess if they knew Hazo was the Dog Summoner, Akane's clan head, and cares about his own people enough to pick fights with a kage, none of which are particularly secret.
 
Minatosealing is cool and all, but on further consideration, I think the real potential for technique hacking lies elsewhere: we've gotta reinvent paper ninjutsu.
It's chakra efficient, it synergizes with graphosealing, and it's what made Konan S-rank and Goro Dan nearly so.

As a start, I propose the following utility technique, which should both serve as a highly cost-effective buff to Hazō's social skills and as a way to begin gaining veterancy in the creation of paper ninjutsu:

Gōketsu-style Paper Art: Post-interaction Survey


TypeAttackStrain
ElementNon-elemental0
Effect1+10
DurationInstant
Durability16
Range0+0
Casting SpeedStandard
DisadvantageStatic Effect-10
Totals2; Elemental Source (-2)6

The user conjures a double-sided post interaction survey into existence in their hand, bearing questions such as 'How do you feel the conversation impacted on your level of sanity?'

Due to the nature of paper arts, despite being a non-elemental technique, this jutsu receives an Elemental Source discount of -2 on its chakra cost if the user is already holding a suitable blank piece of paper, which the jutsu will transform into a post-interaction survey of the kind previously described.
 
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I think Itachi is the most plausible suspect, but I'm going to entertain a possible alternative for the sake of thoroughness.

Rock benefits.

In order for Rock to pull it off, they'd need two things: Akane's blood and the ability to infiltrate the Sarutobi compound and leave no scent.

Instead of a tower mole, what if Rock sourced the blood from Akane's body? We already suspect Rock was responsible for Akane's murder due to the proximity to the border.

An interesting theory. As you say, it's nice to have an alternative even if it's not that likely.

It's true that Rock benefits from anything that weakens Leaf. We were also told that they have a motive for killing Akane: revenge for her capturing the Tsuchikage's husband. Moreover, they don't need to exactly predict whether the plot is going to kill Asuma / Kakuzu / Hidan. Anything to brings tensions between Leaf and Akatsuki is good for them. Asuma dying, and/or an Akatsuki member dying and bringing retaliation on Leaf, are great but not necessary for the operation to be useful.

We don't know much about Rock's infiltration ability so let's assume they have the capability for now.

Yeah that's one of the reasons the odds that it's Rock are rather low.

The problem is would Rock have had the right intel to know that framing Asuma would get him killed by Hidan?

Rock would need to know that Hidan was tracking Akane. Was it widely known that we'd set Hidan on the trail?

Placing a bloody shirt in Asuma's room wouldn't work to frame him unless the perpetrator specifically knew that Hidan was tracking Akane's traces via blood.

If they killed Akane, maybe they were paying particular attention to anything related to her death? But that doesn't explain how they got access to the intel in the first place. Hidan's visit to Leaf was very public, but I don't know how widely known his mission was, that's a good question. It might have been highly classified since anything that brought attention to Akane was bad. On the other hand, Hazo is known for interacting with Hidan; him asking Hidan to track her murderers for the sake of revenge, without particularly trying to hide it, is another way to hide the fact that Asuma is also very interested in the investigation. I think that's what they were trying to project when giving the mission to Hidan: Asuma reluctantly allowing Hazo's whims. If you're not sure you can rely on Hidan to keep OPSEC anyway, you might as well prioritize setting up the right narrative. You also need Akatsuki themselves to buy this line.

Actually, I think the hardest thing to explain intel-wise is still how they knew about Akane's mission. Ino interrogated all the Tower's ninja staff, Shikamaru interrogated the Tower's civilian staff, Ino went through their immediate family and friends...

Maybe they planted it because they hoped Hazou or the Inuzuka would find it? Cause distrust between Hokage and clans.
Strictly speaking all they'd need to know was that the matter was being thoroughly investigated, and that Leaf had some way to identify the blood - which wouldn't be hard to guess if they knew Hazo was the Dog Summoner, Akane's clan head, and cares about his own people enough to pick fights with a kage, none of which are particularly secret.

I don't buy this, because multiple characters have stated that the evidence doesn't make any sense, and that only Hidan would ever think it points toward Asuma being guilty. Even if it's Rock, I still think it's more probable that they knew about Hidan's investigation and had enough intel on Hidan to expect him to react strongly, so they put the shirt there for him to find.

To sum up, the main arguments in favor of Rock being the culprit are that they have clear motives for both killing Akane and framing Asuma, and they don't need to accurately predict how things will unfold: all outcomes are good for them. Arguments against are that we don't know how they infiltrated the Sarutobi compound without even Canvass picking up anything (very hard), how they know about Akane's mission so that they could kill her (very hard), how they knew about Hidan's investigation (maybe easy if Asuma and Hazo went for the "hide the true motivation, not the mission itself" strategy), and how they knew that Hidan was likely to have a strong reaction (medium? Hidan doesn't make any efforts to hide his personality, but that's still a bit specific).
 
Reuploaded with a version that should have slightly better audio editing!

"Soon We'll Go Missing Again" - a Marked for Death sea shanty

View: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lyZsTESyHXdDIHYObEnr8IpuRp52fS-C/view?usp=drivesdk

There once was a kid who lived in Mist,
his teachers found him quite a pest.
Inoue chose him with the rest -
to Noodle they would go

Soon we'll go missing again
and research things beyond our ken.
Leave everything else behind,
just take the fam and go.


Denouncements flew and blood was shed.
The jounin fought; commander's dead.
Marked for death, survivors fled
to Hidden Swamp they'd go

Soon we'll go missing again
and research things beyond our ken.
Leave everything else behind,
just take the fam and go.


Away from Swamp, the world was bleak—
the mighty prey upon the weak.
The ninja only war do seek:
this Uplift swore they'd change.

Soon we'll go missing again
and research things beyond our ken.
Leave everything else behind,
just take the fam and go.


They turned their eyes up to the sky,
to walk on clouds, to try to fly.
And soon—success!—they did belie
the ground far down below

Soon we'll go missing again
and research things beyond our ken.
Leave everything else behind,
just take the fam and go.


Established clan, they can proceed
in teaching all the Uplift creed.
In ninja they'd instill a need
to help civilians grow.

Soon we'll go missing again
and research things beyond our ken.
Leave everything else behind,
just take the fam and go.


If we could open up the rift,
the paradigm would quickly shift.
But Akatsuki's moving swift -
we must not be too slow.

Soon we'll go missing again
and research things beyond our ken.
Leave everything else behind,
just take the fam and go.

My friend started writing this ~2 weeks back when it looked like we were about to go missing from Leaf.

Also, I'd love to do a recording sometime with more voices and a more high-energy boisterous vibe.

If anyone wants to link up and help make this happen, let me know either here or on the discord, and I'll try to coordinate.
 
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PSA: Chapter 664 has been updated to have the whole fight scene.


I'm threadmarking this only so that people see it and get to it easily, then bounce to the actual chapter. It will be unthreadmarked tomorrow.
 
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