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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Halberdier said:
Maybe with Naruto in charge and Mari officially unretired, having her as the acting plan head is best? Certainly, she does a lot of the job of it already. Otherwise, only slightly kidding, I'd back our Chancellor.
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Oh no, impossible. Naruto is not a member of the Goketsu. It's gotta be Mari. That's alright.

We should ask her to run major decisions by Nobs if she can.

EDIT: I think I maybe misunderstood this. "With Naruto in charge [as Hokage], Mari being acting clan head is best."

Instead of Naruto being in charge of the Goketsu.

Yes I agree, I would also argue that it would be best regardless of who the Hokage is. But w/e
eaglejarl said:
If you mean in ch487, you asked for jutsu instruction, not technique hacking.
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eaglejarl said:
You talked to Cantahapuyu. She's willing to try teaching a human technique hacking but she's not optimistic after Hazō's failure at learning the jutsu she had explicitly adapted for humans
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I think they're referring to this.
 
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eaglejarl said:
If you mean in ch487, you asked for jutsu instruction, not technique hacking.
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Apparently you need some Ninjutsu creation skill to deal with the anatomically differences:

eaglejarl said:
"I spoke with Ebisu," Hazō continued. "He's finding it interesting and a little frustrating to train Canun. Apparently there's a real challenge to teach an elemental nature to someone who can't make handseals, can't take a flick of the switch, doesn't have a human bodyplan, and already has two elemental natures not known on our path. Canun is grumbling but feeling generally pleased. In another couple of weeks he'll be willing to sign a pact with me. Put together an appropriate ceremony."
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eaglejarl said:
Atomu has made no progress and is very ashamed of that fact. He has been holding off on reporting his lack of progress because he's afraid of disappointing you.
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Cannai gave us Canun to teach Atomou and didn't warn or inform us. It seems out of character that he would just want all three (Hazou, Canun and Atomou) to fail at this, just to teach us a lesson.

Were all his previous Summoners TH experts? Maybe.

But considering the current circumstances he should find it annoying but funny that the Toad Sages are teaching his Summoner.

"Yeah my Summoner is so important that foreign Sages teach him" *rolls around in grass*
 
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Noumero said:
As you've pointed out, the main issue would be the association between these new "chakra donors" and the old "skinwastes". We'd need to destroy that association: figure out how to present the new demographic in a way that makes people interpret its members as "elevated civilians" rather than "failed ninja".
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I don't think that would work. The comparison is too obvious, and too legitimate. Also, "elevated civilians" isn't exactly an unambiguous positive either - arming civilians with stuff that lets them credibly threaten ninja tends to provoke strategic panic and massacres. Piling on a bunch of wild new ideas would set off peoples' bullshit / fast-talk defenses. I'd say, keep it simple, and start by building off of stuff they wouldn't dare argue against. Something like:

"The Will of Fire is something we all partake in, and contribute to. We're not like Yagura's Mist, tangled up in paranoia and coercion. We've got Tsunade, who's the greatest mednin in the world, and such a badass that even Pain basically admitted she'd be able to beat him in a fair one-on-one duel. You think it's just a coincidence she spends so much time out there using her skills to benefit civilians? Given the world we live in, violence is necessary... but cooperation and mutual support are the true source of our lasting strengths.
"Now, obviously, cowardice and sloth are moral failings. The question is what to do about it. In Yagura's Mist, well, long story short they mostly tried to compel people to work harder, or trick them into informing on their neighbors. Buried that sort of problem pretty well, but didn't solve it. Forced behavior isn't virtuous any more than having a rock thrown at your head is weightlifting. We can do better. When someone's naturally weak, or injured, or busy with other things, training needs to start small, so they don't overdo it and end up worse off.
"Accordingly, we've discovered a new minimum-viable exercise of virtuous, supererogatory pursuit of the Will of Fire: trading away your own chakra to directly support other Leaf nin. This form of service will never be compelled. Not even by the Hokage, short of the most desperate military or medical necessity - we're NOT like Yagura's Mist! Forcing it would defeat the whole point. Lord Goketsu tried that on one of his own people, as punishment for a very serious crime, but the whole situation was a fiasco start to finish.
"So, if you're a good Leaf nin, come and sell any chakra you have to spare, at fair market rates - and whenever you see someone waiting in line there who you'd previously dismissed as a skinwaste, reconsider that assessment. Just showing up and giving what they can is proof they're trying to become better, same as you. That's worth something."
 
Summary of stuff that wasn't included in the update:
  1. Watsonian: The training optimizations were deemed too hard to share with anyone not working super closely with Hazō. Doylist: The reason the QMs let the players have access to the kids' character sheets was to take the load off of us, not because he had any particular advantage at teaching. As such, we feel it's inappropriate for Hazō to provide mechanical/political benefit in this area.
  2. Kei is willing to join the mission team for a couple of months, as she needs some time off her political duties to discharge her obligations to the Pangolin Clan on the front lines of the Hyena conflict. War crimes aside, it seems better than twiddling her thumbs while Hazō and Kagome talk research for months.
  3. Kei already has a representative in Toad, and can probably ask that representative to go to wherever is needed.
  4. Kei and Noburi nixed the idea of asking for training for the full team. The Toads and Pangolins may be allies, but they felt that the Toad Sages would almost certainly deny to teach the Pangolin summoner anything of note and that only Hazō's special connection gave him even a slight chance of a yes. Turns out, they were right.
  5. Kei declines hunting chakra beasts if she is to come along with you -- in as much as she is coming on the mission as the team's combat-capable ninja, it doesn't make sense for her to not travel with you.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Wrapping Up (This Is A Constrictor Pun)
Word Count: <599
  • Sanity check/optimize with Mari/Kei
  • Orochimaru
    • Attend the last conversation while Noburi learns his new combat medical jutsu.
    • Bring a package containing:
      • MS1-8 - research notes, blanks, infused copies
        • Ensure these, and any other information we turn over, are scrubbed of all mentions of MS9+
        • Don't answer questions about where we got them from, let him assume they're original to Hazou if possible.
      • Our partial progress on RS0, and our plan to open the rift with RS0-3.
      • Notes for moving the Rift, if any.
      • Location of the bladehorror Rift in Iron, if he wants a Rift to practice on.
    • Mention that our Rift-opening plan dates to before we (re)discovered runecrafting. Much of it will need to revaluated.
      • In addition, Sasori has access to all this, since it was all stolen by Akatsuki.
        • Note that Sasori's Yodomi bloodline makes him poor at innovative thinking, so disrupting our (former) plan is a possible delaying tactic, as Akatsuki will likely be relying on it.
    • Offer him the package in exchange for a few of Noburi's barrels worth of substrate, and further considerations later.
      • Created in Arachnid if possible. If not, under the Goketsu estate will do.
    • Suggest he meet with us in Arachnid during Hazou's long-term mission if he would like to cooperate over moving the Rift.
    • For the foreseeable future, Hazou is going to be hard at work researching weapons to kill Akatsuki. A difficult task. Here are the further considerations we mentioned earlier.
      • It would be incredibly beneficial in that regard if you were willing to act as a sounding board of what stands a reasonable chance of killing/incapacitating them.
      • We want your word that if you successfully steal the Rift from Akatsuki, you won't stop us from trying to resurrect Jiraiya and Akane. We don't ask for your help opening it or exploring it, just give us a chance to do it ourselves.
    • What are your thoughts about Pain returning? Given how powerful he was, Hazou doesn't think the EN can possibly resist him andthe rest of Akatsuki (minus Kakuzu).
      • It seems inevitable to Hazou that they'll crack the Rift at this point. Now that the Dragon threat is contained for the foreseeable future, is this your top priority?
    • Finally, let's pivot to something else. Are you familiar with the Nara's predictions of humanity's extinction in the next century?
      • Assuming they're not overdramatic nonsense, as an aspiring immortal, how do you feel about that?
        • How do you think a society of aspiring immortals can avoid the same pitfalls as the Hidden Villages? It seems to Hazou like they would end up in a similar race to the bottom, of trying to compete with the only threats left - each other.
      • We seek more than just our own survival standing in the graveyard of humanity. We want to build a better world, one where humanity can last forever.
        • Our efforts at Uplift are aimed towards this. We want to change the balance so that collaboration and improvement are rewarded instead of wasteful, self-destructive madness.
        • Given our values, are there flaws in our goals or approach?
        • What should we do to maximize Uplift? Both in the short/medium term, and to help ensure humanity's persistentence.
      • Lastly, sir, if you don't mind us asking, we've read your notes from when you were Hazou's age. You've changed since then, a lot.
        • Jiraiya once said that you decided not to care about other people. Would you tell us why you decided that, and how you you did it?
 
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quick thoughts:

Sir Stompy said:
Attend the last conversation while Noburi learns his new jutsu
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Remember how vehemently opposed to this Noburi was. also notice that this plan has us repeatedly offering to help Oro and collaborate with him, in front of Noburi. the challenges of getting Noburi's cooperation here cannot ignored. also, he would need to be examined beforehand, but we should try to get Kabuto to do it. we should also tell Noburi to keep his damn trap shut during the meeting, unless it's a practical question about what Oro is teaching him.

Sir Stompy said:
  • Bring a package containing:
    • MS1-8 - research notes, blanks, infused copies
      • Ensure these, and any other information we turn over, are scrubbed of all mentions of MS9+
      • Don't answer questions about where we got them from, let him assume they're original to Hazou if possible.
    • Our partial progress on RS0, and our plan to open the rift with RS0-3.
    • Notes for moving the Rift, if any.
    • Location of the bladehorror Rift in Iron, if he wants a Rift to practice his seals on.
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Sir Stompy said:
Offer him the package in exchange for a few of Noburi's barrels worth of substrate, and further considerations later.
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I'm verry iffy on this.
note that moving and opening the rift are unrelated sealchains.
once the Akatsuki are(partially) defeated and the rift stolen, there will be a wait while oro figures out how to open the rift.
being able to whip out a rift-opener we've been secretly working on all along would let us keep our leverage/agency in the lategame. it also curtails Orochimarus final position, which I'm worried about.
This seems like something we're likely to regret later.
We should try to get the substrate some other way first. pay for it in chakra-refills, for example.

Sir Stompy said:
  • Mention that all our notes are from before we discovered runecrafting. Much of this will need to revaluated post-rune.
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Sir Stompy said:
  • Here are the further considerations, For the foreseeable future, Hazou is going to be hard at work researching weapons to kill Akatsuki. A difficult task, but not an insurmountable one, since Hazou's already done it once by accident.
    • It would be incredibly beneficial in that regard if you were willing to act as a sounding board of what stands a reasonable chance of killing/incapacitating them.
    • Even more so if you were willing to turn over some of your countermeasures (dubious may cut)
    • Or if that's a bridge too far, giving us seals that'd help us build up mastery in a domain that we think has potential as an anti-Akatsuki weapon. Hazou's most interested right now in a few domains:
      • Seals that affect storage spaces
      • Seals that affect other seals
      • Chakra-affecting seals
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I think flying under his radar is much safer and will let us catch Orochimaru by suprise, either with weaponry or solving necromancy faster than expected.
It's a godsend that we're still stealthing on his threat radar. bragging seems actively unhelpful.

Sir Stompy said:
Created in Dog if possible. If not, under the Goketsu estate will do.
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Sir Stompy said:
Suggest he send a Snake to Dog to ease collaboration during Hazou's long-term mission. Offer to collaborate with him over the Rift.
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Getting a snake to Dog will be a pain for Oro, if only socialy with Manda.
Also, I want Oro to stay the hell away from Toad/our research, or he'll learn all of our crazy shit like Time Chamber, WMDs, secret rift research, ect.
and he'll ask why we're going to such lengths to learn TH when we could be rune-ing, and why Ma&Pa are teaching. we're putting Minatosealing at risk, both of being directly snatched, and of Oro figuring it out after the fact.

Sir Stompy said:
Finally, let's pivot to something else. Are you familiar with the Nara's predictions of humanity's extinction in the next century?
  • Assuming they're not overdramatic nonsense, since you plan to be alive for it, does the thought bother you?
    • It would certainly be more difficult to acquire test subjects.
  • Hazou didn't need to know humanity is doomed to want Uplift, but it's certainly excellent motivation. Still there's always room for improvement. What do you think we could be doing better for it in the short, medium, and long term?
  • Lastly, sir, if you don't mind us asking, we've read your notes from when you were Hazou's age. You've changed, a lot.
    • Jiraiya once said that you decided not to care about other people. Can you tell us why you decided that, and how you you did it?
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I love this, but think this is a clumsy approach. getting my preferred framing/approach down in text is hard for me, but I'm looking forward to our planed voice chat tomorrow.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Created in Dog if possible. If not, under the Goketsu estate will do.
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Can't we safely put these in storage seals? They're entirely mundane, and the internal structure will remain intact if stowed properly. Neji decided against storing them when he retrieved his batch, but that was because he didn't know what was up with them and didn't want to take his chances.
Offer to collaborate with him over the Rift.
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"Collaborate" is a risky word here. We can't have Hazou becoming Orochimaru's research assistant when he needs to be doing his own research instead. I do want to cooperate with him, but "cooperate" is probably a better word that's less likely to cause any misunderstandings.
It would be incredibly beneficial in that regard if you were willing to act as a sounding board of what stands a reasonable chance of killing/incapacitating them.
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My inner Orochimaru.exe is stuck between "Ugh, no, this is a waste of my time. I've already told you everything I'm willing to tell you about them, figure it out yourself." and "Why yes, nephew, please do tell me every innovative weapon idea you come up with. Make sure not to leave any out." It's leaving me pretty leery about the line.

More broadly, remember that Oro dislikes finnicky details and prefers to deal with people on a sort of honor system. It's how we handled the rune trade, a "deal between men" with the expectation that each side faithfully pays up their end of the bargain. It is not necessary, and indeed likely counterproductive, to seek permission for every scrap of cooperation we want from him. Rather, we should ask for a more general "cooperation against the Akatsuki" (or thereabouts) and then simply trust that if he accepts that it means he's willing to entertain good-faith applications of that like "do you think this seal would kill Konan?" We likely gain more (and spend less) here if we focus on the general thrust of our request, cooperation towards our shared goals, than if we hand him an itemized list of every finnicky little thing we need from him.
 
[X] Action Plan: Parselmouth
Word Count: 399
  • Sanity check/optimize with Mari/Kei
  • Noburi
    • Ask Yakushi if he can do Oro's examination instead.
      • If not, ask if Oro will teach us an Earth Taijutsu/Ath buff instead?
  • Orochimaru
    • Noburi: We're gonna talk to Oro in the terms he understands. don't be alarmed, let us cook.
    • Trade our rift resources for a few chakra-barrels worth of BoC substrate.
      • Kagome&Hazou's(expunge minato references!) work on MS1-8, RS0, and planed sequence of Rift Seals.
      • Location of the bladehorror Rift in Iron, for testing.
    • What might long-term equilibrium look like between immortals?
      • If immortals see each other as threats, are they forced fight until only one remains?
        • That's pointless. Idiots killing each other for minimal gain. If they could coexist, everyone would be better off.
          • Other amicable immortals means allies against X-risks.
          • Is long-term peace and collaboration possible, at least among those wise enough to truly persist forever?
    • Hazou seeks more than just his own survival among the few immortals standing in the graveyard of humanity. He wants to build a better world, one where humanity can last forever, growing wise and stable.
      • (If Orochimaru dismisses us out of hand): Ambition and Cowardice are incompatible, Uncle.
      • You scorn most humanity for it's failings. But we find most of these failings are from circumstance, not inviolable nature.
        • Yes, it is a failing that they aren't you, that they haven't the vision and brilliance to begin breaking their chains on their own.
        • But they can be taught, incentives can be changed. Just because the bulk of humanity is lesser than you, they needn't be so lowly as this.
        • We know you've found the existence of stable competent people useful. We want everyone to be more like that.
    • Civilization is ending itself. It's caught in a downward spiral, empowering shortsighted fools to destroy each other while everything else burns.
      • We want to change the political/economic/social/institutional balance so collaboration and improvement are rewarded instead of wasteful self-destruction.
        • It's possible. Heck, if Akatsuki weren't largely made of short-sighted and unstable people, AMITY would be a viable route to world peace. After a generation, human culture could adapt to new circumstances and let people truely believe in peace.
    • We'd like advice:
      • Given our values, are there flaws in our goals or approach?
      • What should we do to maximize Uplift short/medium term, and to help humanity become stable for the infinite future.


oooookay, I went a little bit supervillain rant there, as a mix of "talk to Oro in his terms" and "paint a grand vision of what Uplift means and could become".

core perspective: Orochimaru expects a few people besides himself will manage true immortality. while he's stopped caring about "mortal" people who will die anyway, he's assuming some kind of nonhostile community of other immortals will exist.
we can use this. if the only people he think of as "people" are wise/stable long-view immortals, we can position ourselves towards that category, and paint a picture of uplift as being about the wisdom/sanity and long-view immortality of humanity(if not the humans that form it). then try to get whatever crumbs of buy-in he can spare for uplift. a foot in the door, so to speak.

I'm currently soliciting help rewriting the "Civilization is ending itself" section.
It could be made clearer and present it's argument more strongly, but my writing skill doesn't seem to be up to the task. plz halp.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Parselmouth

Subject to some wordcount optimizations in the next few days, but this approach really resonated with me. More thoughts (hopefully) after I sleep
 
Tax Reform!

@QMs, can we just link this as an offscreenable thing to hand off to Mari/Kei? I'm assuming you want to avoid spending a whole chapter just discussing proposed tax reforms, but LMK if that sounds fun.

  • Policy proposals
    • Seal supply (issue: Leaf as a whole is undersupplied on seals, and those seals are missalocated.)
      • move seal sales to a modestly-taxed freemarket system. let the huge demand cause more people to become sealsmiths and drive the price back down as leafs produces a huge ammount of seals.
      • start a sealmith educational track built into the last year of the acadamy.
        • This can overlap heavily with the new "chakra-donor" specialization.
    • Tax Collection (issue: when the tower lowers taxes, the daimyo/taxmen just pocket the difference)
      • inform Daimyo that next year, ninja will randomly check a few villages in each daimyo's lands. if the villergers were substantialy overtaxed, that daimyo will be publicly whipped.
        • controlling their taxmen is the daimyo's duty.

  • Why these policy proposals? (you can skip this part if you want)
    • Seals:
      • Every Leaf ninja should carry explosive tags and skywalkers. If they don't, it's because leaf isn't producing enough.
        • seals are a special case(like substitution) where they dramatically improve survival rates, and we don't need to worry about theft because they're already widely known.
        • explosives are particularly useful for genin, the exact group who are priced out of buying them.
        • The first nation to radically expand its sealsmithing capacity will be at a big advantage. We want that to be Leaf.
      • Training some academy students as noncombat sealmiths means that instead of dying young and leaving Leaf weaker, their seals will keep their classmates alive, ultimately leading to more surviving field ninja.
        • This can overlap heavily with the new "chakra-donor" specialization
          • Chakra-donors will have plenty of spare time, but almost no spare chakra. sealsmithing only takes time, and has negligible chakra requirements.
      • Jiriaya's sealing notes can easily guide a novice to the skill level where they can make skywalkers.
    • Tax Collection:
      • Lower taxes on farming villages would be incredible for leaf's long-term growth. but when the tower lowers taxes, the daimyo/taxmen pocket the difference, massively reducing the effect.
        • The daimyo have the beauracratic capacity to create oversight and keep taxmen honest, but have no incentive to do so.
          • One ninja can spot-check a few villages easily, and punish the daimyo if they/their taxmen have been systemicly robbing farmers.
          • The Daimyo's incentives are now correctly aligned, and they in turn can align the incentives of the taxmen.
            • Probably by setting up their own auditing and oversight body, and threatening to execute taxmen that use their position to rob villages.
 
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@Left-Hand Mutant you need to reword the part about the chakra donor specialization. There is no such thing right now.
I also encourage you to NOT do this. You have been asked not to change the conversation Mari will have with Naruto. Making things that would impact her proposal (like "just teach them all basic sealing, get double value from them") is a no-no.

I also think it's a bad idea, but that's unrelated to the "please be nice to the QMs" objection.

@Sir Stompy I recommend cutting the part about the countermeasures. That will definitely annoy him for no reason.
 
T_of_A said:
@Left-Hand Mutant you need to reword the part about the chakra donor specialization. There is no such thing right now.
I also encourage you to NOT do this. You have been asked not to change the conversation Mari will have with Naruto. Making things that would impact her proposal (like "just teach them all basic sealing, get double value from them") is a no-no.

I also think it's a bad idea, but that's unrelated to the "please be nice to the QMs" objection.

@Sir Stompy I recommend cutting the part about the countermeasures. That will definitely annoy him for no reason.
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This... was meant to take place afterwards, as I imagine that getting Noburi examined and scheduleing a meeting with Oro will take a longer than Mari's conversation.
I'll add a clarifying note, thanks.

Separately, if it's a bad idea, could you try to explain why? that would be helpful.
 
Cariyaga said:
@eaglejarl Both of the last chapters are labeled 655 -- probably the latter of them should be part 2, or just 656?
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The first one is eventually going to be re-posted with a new chapter number.
Left-Hand Mutant said:
sub-plan: Tax Reform!
@QMs, can we just link this as an offscreenable thing to hand off to Mari/Kei? I'm assuming you want to avoid spending a whole chapter just discussing proposed tax reforms, but LMK if that sounds fun.
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That is a LOT of text, most of which isn't actionable, and I have no idea what you want to do with it. My eyes glazed over as I was reading it. What's the intent?

T_of_A said:
You have been asked not to change the conversation Mari will have with Naruto.
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This, except we'll simply ignore anything that would mess with the timeline by changing that conversation.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Can't we safely put these in storage seals? They're entirely mundane, and the internal structure will remain intact if stowed properly. Neji decided against storing them when he retrieved his batch, but that was because he didn't know what was up with them and didn't want to take his chances
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Yeah sure, but this is like 20 tons of rock, it's going to be a pain to move. So where he makes it very much matters.
Inferno Vulpix said:
"Collaborate" is a risky word here. We can't have Hazou becoming Orochimaru's research assistant when he needs to be doing his own research instead. I do want to cooperate with him, but "cooperate" is probably a better word that's less likely to cause any misunderstandings
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Can do
Inferno Vulpix said:
My inner Orochimaru.exe is stuck between "Ugh, no, this is a waste of my time. I've already told you everything I'm willing to tell you about them, figure it out yourself." and "Why yes, nephew, please do tell me every innovative weapon idea you come up with. Make sure not to leave any out." It's leaving me pretty leery about the line
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T_of_A said:
@Sir Stompy I recommend cutting the part about the countermeasures. That will definitely annoy him for no reason
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@Noumero you were asking for this on Discord. Do you have a rebuttal before I significantly rework the section?
 
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