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Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)

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[X] All have a place in Eretria, and we must not worship the dead. There cannot be any discrimination in the graves of the dead beyond the wealth of the individual.

He makes a good point about not wanting to be chained by the past.

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.

We need allies and he seems like he needs is as well so mutual need will keep us fast friends.

[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.

We definitely can't afford to have Korinth and Taras ganging up on us.
 
afterthought53 said:
He makes a good point about not wanting to be chained by the past.
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If we forget the past we repeat it dude. Or law code is built on remembering what occurred before, our military is built from looking at what didn't work and what did in the last and improving upon it.

The basis of Eretria is learning from the last. If we don't record it properly, remember it as it was, we cannot do that.

We cannot be chained to the past, but we shouldn't dismiss it so easily.
 
[X] No, he is a weakling who cannot hold his post among his fellows. Better a strong man who does not like Eretria than a weak one who does.
[X] All have a place in Eretria, and we must not worship the dead. There cannot be any discrimination in the graves of the dead beyond the wealth of the individual.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
 
[X] No, he is a weakling who cannot hold his post among his fellows. Better a strong man who does not like Eretria than a weak one who does.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.

"Hear me now O Eretria! Lykos has shown proper deference to us and has recognized our greater arete this is true, but this does not make him an able leader of men, nor does it give us cause to interfere in the matters of our ally Metapontion. For indeed what would be gained by this foolishness? The ire of some notables in exchange for letting a man who has been found wanting by the gods command for another season. Let them order their own house that we might focus on our enemies in Italia and further afield.

Now as to our great men, our heros, what is to be done? Of course there the answer is simple they must be honored and allowed to light the way that our children and their children might follow. Like calls to like, and this way Antipater and others like him will remain alive in the hearts of generations to come.

And finally we must determine where to send wise Kallias, strong of arm and silver of tongue, to do the will of the poleis. Korinthos troubles me deeply this is true, but the loss of our Ionian brothers and the shame that would come from failing to honor our oath to them before the gods troubles me far more. Our course of action here is clear, we must bring the other cities into the war against Syrakousai. However, we must also be on our guard, so that if the Korinthians attempt some base treachery, they will find us ready for them."
 
Sarpedon said:
"Hear me now O Eretria! Lykos has shown proper deference to us and has recognized our greater arete this is true, but this does not make him an able leader of men, nor does it give us cause to interfere in the matters of our ally Metapontion. For indeed what would be gained by this foolishness? The ire of some notables in exchange for letting a man who has been found wanting by the gods command for another season. Let them order their own house that we might focus on our enemies in Italia and further afield.
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The other generals are most surely our enemy, for did they not attempt to see our Polis routed for their own gain? Lykos may lack in Arete when compared to Herodion, but the other generals are enemies of us and their own people. Metapontion is a young democracy, and it is clear that these "Generals" have not truly accept this fact, choosing to promote personal glory over true Arete, and that they curse Lykos as "Populist" because they know that they do not hold the trust of their Polis. Can our hoplites truly stand alongside a Phalanx led by such a man?
 
[X] No, he is a weakling who cannot hold his post among his fellows. Better a strong man who does not like Eretria than a weak one who does.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
 
"O sons of Eretria, the Liburni roam the seas like wolves, yet find defeat while battering at the bloodied but unbroken Enetoi. As for Taras, the Daxtus holds to the bond under Artemis, and Harpos remains ever watchful of the Dauni. You see? Korinthe may intrigue against us, but their puppets lie feebled.

Let us instead further secure Eretria through our own terms rather than by relying upon that snake Leonteos, who will find some way to steal away from the polis in the shadow.

So says, Ulysses, son of Acron."

[X] No, he is a weakling who cannot hold his post among his fellows. Better a strong man who does not like Eretria than a weak one who does.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
 
McLuvin said:
Boy, life is not a tale or game or show. It is not about speeches, it is about heroes and the bloody paths they leave in their wake. Eretria is founded in Blood. It is founded on Bones. Built by Heroes. Great Men are it's lifeblood, and they must be respected and learned from properly.

Mayhaps you will one day be amongst them, and I think you would rather like to have people remember you, aspire to be like you and learn from you to make the city even greater. To become a part of Eretria's heart and blood as Antipater will.

I sincerely hope your defeat here humbles you. You'd be dangerous beyond belief without that Hubris.

Until then boy, I suggest you buy a horse, take one of mine if you must, if you are half as good a rider as you are a speaker and as good with a spear as you claim then I rather think you'll be entertaining to fight alongside when you are a man and not a boy.
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OBANDER: What is a man without his comrades? What is a hero without his companions? The hero is built upon the foundation of the city. Every man and every part of the city, from the women to the children to the metics, has a role to play in the construction of greatness. To place so great a role in the hands of Antipater or Herodion or Drako is a crass forgetfulness of the dangers that tyranny can provide when men are allowed to believe that all their accomplishments are their own. The resting place of glory is in the extraordinary fortitude of every citizen- my father, who was a slave before he had been freed and fought for the city- my mother, who had to struggle and work every day as the servant for wealthier women until she was pale of face, her hair sticky, its black locks the texture of straw from the pangs of hunger. You speak of Great men, but the city is great- it facilitates greatness. Without Eretria Herodion would be nothing, a mercenary captain in Illyria. Without Eretria Drako would be nothing, a lesser noble of no great stature. Without Eretria Antipater would be the poor farmer's son. It is the collective citizenry and its accomplishments which provide the buttress below these heroes, and yet you would suggest that we separate them and put them above that collective, as if they can be separated. This is not the time that Homer spoke of, when great heroes do battle beneath the walls of Illion, and they all seek to distinguish themselves in individual combat. Combat is a matter of the battle array, and it is our phalanx, or else our cavalry, or else our ekdromoi, or else our psilloi, that in sum accomplish the work of battle.

Heroes are movers of men, and that is where their talents lie, but to distinguish them so blithely is to separate them from the men they moved, as if they could survive without them in life.
 
Cetashwayo said:
OBANDER
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A middle-aged, disfigured man hobbles forward. Perhaps some will recognize him as Akakios, who holds enough lands to afford a panopoly and has long and unstintingly fought as a hoplite. He has earned no great honors but also never begotten any great disgrace. Within Eretria itself, men like him are as common as mushrooms after spring rains.

"I loved Antipater. All the city did, and yet I lay special claim to him as do all farmers; it is no secret to this assembly that Antipater fought so that we would not be made powerless at the hands of those whose station supercedes ours. Yea, and he fought not only with words but with arms, not only on his rock but also as a rock, our rock on the field of battle, whose arete and amicability turned aside the spears of the foemen until Lord Ares himself descended from Olympus to reap his life.

In life, the ox who upturned the fields of our foes; in death, the redeemer who rinsed our sins in the Styx: this was Antipater!

We owe him more than we can replay in this life alone, and that is why we must not erect any monument in his honor! If we honor Antipater, if we loved him, then we must honor the principles that he girded himself with tighter than any armor. He did not move about us as an aristrocrat, never held himself apart, never demanded any honors but those which naturally accrue to the ablest man in a brotherhood of men. And yet we, in our misguided grandure, in our aristocratic delusion, seek to separate his body from his ideals.

Do the gods not judge every soul and send it to its rightful reward or punishment? Who do we think we are to separate the wheat from the chaff? Mark my words: we have grown swollen with hubris like overripe grapes. We build this abomination and title it a hall of heroes only because our minds are sick, because we are slowly abandoning the Eretria of Antipater and Eusebios and Herodion for the Old Eretria of aristocratic domination and limited franchise.

The gods struck down Antipater so that we might learn and amend our ways; should we do so we will see an Eretria of marble walls where all the riches of the world gather. But the gods are impatient and do not suffer fools; we have no second Antipater to give! Harken to my words, citizens, and turn away from this foul enterprise!"

[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] All have a place in Eretria, and we must not worship the dead. There cannot be any discrimination in the graves of the dead beyond the wealth of the individual.
 
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how do people speak in this debate as a citizen of Eretria exactly? Like do you need three people to support your proposal or speech before it's recognised? Just curious
 
Attache said:
how do people speak in this debate as a citizen of Eretria exactly? Like do you need three people to support your proposal or speech before it's recognised? Just curious
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It's three to get a user motion going, but you can RP as a citizen of Eretria without any special permission (I believe). Kallios (@Cavalier) has been the most successful in that regard and was also the person who launched our war against the Peuketti way back when.
 
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HYPSENOR, FRIEND TO ANTIPATER: The young Obander speaks with a fleet tongue that could shock old Nestor with its wit and speed, and yet he forgets that the heroes who rise above the city are not just distinguished because they are great, but to serve as the models of greatness. To be sure, this city of ours has become a great city due to the contributions of every citizen. But it is the citizens who place in their heart the pursuit of excellence, who see to it that they can become the best of men, who see that all that is before them is theirs for the taking, and who understand the limits of the city in order to push it, who must be encouraged and given opportunity. So as the crops in the field require rain and sun to rise and grow beneath the eye of watchful Demeter for the sake of the bountiful harvest, the hero must be provided the space and encouragement to become a great man who can give back to this city. Throughout their lives they work tirelessly, they contribute, they work, and in the end they are given a reward for their work in life: A monument in death. So that the city does not so horribly forget them, and allow the legacy which Antipater hoped to build, that every hero hopes to build, fall to dust, crushed by the passage of time. It is the building of these monuments that is the building of traditions, that gives us something to tell our children, that gives youths something to walk out to appreciate, that gives all a quaking feeling of pride and happiness that the men of our past were good and we will continue to do good.
 
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Satar said:
It's three to get a user motion going, but you can RP as a citizen of Eretria without any special permission (I believe). Kallios (@Cavalier) has been the most successful in that regard and was also the person who launched our war against the Peuketti way back when.
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That is correct. Occasionally if I'm feeling inspired or if the debate is particularly good I will interject with my own QM controlled characters. It is a useful exercise for players to gauge how these guys speak, to emulate them if they want, but mostly to understand who they are and where they are coming from.
 
It may be so that any hero relies upon the polis, as Obander would have it, and yet not all men serve the polis equally well. Men who win great renown in the service of the city should be recognized for that service. Such is the case in Athens, and many other poleis besides. The charge that it represents an aristocratic fallacy is unjust and misguided, for the common hoplite whose valor is seen before the polis has as much claim as a proboulos, and indeed much more claim than a proboulos of no particular merit, to such honor. While all men are not equal in their talents, or their skills, or even their opportunities, the courage that is needed to act for the good of the polis in war or other grave danger is something that any man may display.

And by honoring those who do demonstrate such bravery and sacrifice, we keep alive their kleos, the great renown of their example. In doing so however we do not just honor the dead but serve the living. Men are driven by competition and by example to demonstrate arete. By singling out Antipater we do not make him an idol but rather than example to follow, that more men may demonstrate arete in the same way they might do so by the example of Achilles or Heracles; but as mortals who achieved mortal good for the polis, without the blessings of divinity. The cemetery of heroes, by encouraging all men of the city to live up to the example of Antipater and demonstrate the arete to join him in the blessed repose, will make our city more equal and not less equal.

And so Kallias son of Aristedes urges that this wise motion to honor our celebrated dead be passed.
 
[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Phoenician cities to gain fleets, mercenaries and wealth beyond Greek imagining, to be levied against Syrakousai.
 
Oh cool, so people can literally grow characters properly into the quest itself!
 
Attache said:
Oh cool, so people can literally grow characters properly into the quest itself!
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Indeed. I don't generally give them big positions- Kallias and Sideros (Ironanvil's character) were just easier to work with and both were really active- but they will occasionally be mentioned. For example, the group of young men, the "Bull Runners" of which Obander is the leader, was originally devised I believe by @BlueFlamingWings as one of his ideas. The Kleos Exoria was @McLuvin's idea, and many of the other major parts of Eretria Eskhata (Ekdromoi, the Divine Marriage), etc have been player write-ins.
 
[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
 
[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
 
[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly faceamong the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.
 
[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance with them against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
 
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[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to the Sicilian Greek Cities to forge an alliance withthem against Syrakousai, convincing them to enter the war in Sicily.
 
[X] All have a place in Eretria, and we must not worship the dead. There cannot be any discrimination in the graves of the dead beyond the wealth of the individual.
[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.
 
[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly faceamong the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.
[X] Heroes great and small have played a role in Eretria. We must not forget them by letting their graves be forgotten, and encourage future heroes to rise up.
[X] Kallias should be sent to Lykai to investigate rumors of a Korinthian Conspiracy against Eretria Eskhata potentially involving the Tarentines, Liburni, and Dauni.
 
[X] Yes, he is a trusted and friendly face among the Metapontines. No other general is so supportive of Eretria, even if it for self-serving purposes.

[X] All have a place in Eretria, and we must not worship the dead. There cannot be any discrimination in the graves of the dead beyond the wealth of the individual.
Adhoc vote count started by Chrestomanci on Apr 11, 2018 at 5:14 AM, finished with 1525 posts and 38 votes.
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