Magna Graecia: Victory's Children (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
NothingNow
Corpse Wrangler
- Location
- Tampa
Not only that, but I'm leery of storing grain in the walls just to avoid any issues that could come from poor conditions in such a granary. Like, it's not going to be that well ventilated, and could be threatened by
projectile weapons or simply water collecting in a cool, shaded space.
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias east to Hellas, in the face of growing Korinthian trade in the Adriatic and their needling of the Kerkyrans. If need be, get some kind of assurance that Athens will come to Eretria's aid if Korinthos goes to war, negating their naval advantage.
[X] We need to have the wall fortify the shore and harbour, so that we are protected against naval raids and assault. [-270 talents, wall will protect the shoreand harbour, three turns to build].
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
New to this, so I think you need another vote for this motion to go through?
As such, I will carry your rock as well.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Okay, the motion is approved.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
I think you make some fairly convincing points, but I have two concerns about Harpos. Once we give Rhyps over, we don't have much else to entice Harpos with. That's not an insurmountable problem but it might make keeping Harpos under control trickier. The second point is that Rhyps really doesn't want to be under Harpos' control, and given that apparently they've been pretty good vassals themselves I'm not keen to dismiss their concerns. It's something we can afford to wait on for a little while: Harpos is unlikely to defect on it and as you say it doesn't much impact his situation.
Ideally, we'd get Harpos and Rhyps to sit at a table and hash it out themselves, but I'm not sure how practical that is in this setting.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
And would rescinding the laws on slave and serf labor, solely for such dedicated to building the wall, have any effect of speeding up construction?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Not much.
- Location
- USA
I must admit I do not like the idea of building in exceptions into laws. I can see the stretch on the sacred treasury as it improves the city for some of the situations the sacred treasury would be spent on but changing serf and slave laws is a can of worms I do not want to open.
Also I dislike the 75 per turn repayment as that prevents us from starting econ buildings for at least another year after this which we desperately need given how much in extra expenses we have.
Also I dislike the 75 per turn repayment as that prevents us from starting econ buildings for at least another year after this which we desperately need given how much in extra expenses we have.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Given we are building these walls for at least three years, do we even have the manpower to build anything else?
@Cetashwayo - On that note, if we were to drop 370 talents on The Wall: Platinum Edition would it take longer?
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Mmm. Yeah, I say we build the normal thickness walls with room for expansion plus the sea wall. That lets us get away with borrowing only 50 from the sacred treasury which we can afford to pay right back next turn, and given how quickly things are escalating yet another turn before the wall is done doesn't feel like a good call. Four is already too long.
- Location
- National Capital Region, USA
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].
I'd be more favorable to Harpos desire if we hadn't already told the Rhyps council specifically we would not do that. I don't want us to start appearing that fickle. And Harpos has already been given a big reward. Let him wait a bit before we toss yet more meat to him.
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].
I'd be more favorable to Harpos desire if we hadn't already told the Rhyps council specifically we would not do that. I don't want us to start appearing that fickle. And Harpos has already been given a big reward. Let him wait a bit before we toss yet more meat to him.
Harpos has thus far proven himself to be a very competent and resourceful ruler. To the point that i am pretty sure he would have ended up ruling Canossa eventually even if we had given their ruling council their choice of leader. Quite frankly i don't think he is going to subject Rhyps to the same treatment as Canossa. Rhyps and its notables are utterly afraid of him after that last demonstration of power. The chances of them rebelling against him are near nill, especially since they are a small city that knows its limits and never had any ambition to rule the Peuketi in the first place. If he is truly as competent as he appears thus far he should know that a display of mercy on his part is likely to have Rhyps kiss the ground he walks on.
Thus i feel that the fear of Rhyps is misplaced and that they will likely be better off under Harpos rule than they expect.
Thus i feel that the fear of Rhyps is misplaced and that they will likely be better off under Harpos rule than they expect.
[X] USER MOTION Harpos shall be King of the Peuketti, but at the hand of Eretria. He shall be elevated in a ceremony at Eretria a year hence, allowing him time to address the fears of the people of Rhyps, where he will reswear his oaths of allegiance in his new role. It will also allow him to reassure himself as to the welfare of his children guesting in the city.
I wonder if Harpos is just testing us to see how far he can go. I'd also rather not go back on Herodion's word of not turning the city over either.
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
I wonder if Harpos is just testing us to see how far he can go. I'd also rather not go back on Herodion's word of not turning the city over either.
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We shall open the Sacred Treasury this one time, for the construction of the stone wall is vital to the defence of the city. The funds taken out of the treasury will be repaid into it at a rate no less than 50 talents a year, on top of the 10% annual tithe. With the additional funds available we will extend the wall to cover a larger area so that we may account for the city's growth, as well as the construction of a sea wall, to ward off naval raids and assault. [-320 talents, wall will cover a larger area of the city, wall will protect the shore and harbour, four turns to build, will draw from the Sacred Treasury].
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- Location
- Canada
@Cetashwayo How many sons and daughters does Harpos have? And are any of them with us as our "hostages" already because of Canosa (as was discussed, but seemingly not acted upon)?
HanEmpire
Delicious
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We need to build the wall right to begin with. Let us use the Sacred Treasury to build a wall that befits the glory of Eretria, grand enough to impress the whole world! Extend the wall over a large area, fortify the shore and harbour, and thicken it to store grains. [-370 talents, five turns to build].
A better orator than me should clean up the User Motion vote.
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We need to build the wall right to begin with. Let us use the Sacred Treasury to build a wall that befits the glory of Eretria, grand enough to impress the whole world! Extend the wall over a large area, fortify the shore and harbour, and thicken it to store grains. [-370 talents, five turns to build].
A better orator than me should clean up the User Motion vote.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Harpos has three sons and two daughters. He'd be willing to send one son and one daughter to Eretria, but only on the condition that they are cared for by Herodion (for the son) and Drako (for the daughter) respectively. However, the concern, and the basic problem of hostage contracts, is they don't really work well when one side is a dynasty and the other's a city. How do you trust the city not to just turn on them as an angry mob? What if they decide to just randomly execute them one day? Barbaroi are just as fond of their kids as Greeks, and although Harpos is clearly a busy man a major Iapygian cultural norm is deep love of children so he would be loath to part with them. It's difficult for him to trust ordinary citizens with his kids and you can't really put them in the public trust, because Harpos would hate that even more.
In this case his opposition is at least theoretically based in real concerns rather than just blank refusal.
- Location
- Vicksburg, MS
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
Part of the reason why we were even able to subjugate these Peuketii in the first place was in that they were bickering and disunited. King Harpos now has all but the least of those cities behind him. For the time being, I think it's safe to assume that his interest lies in being fully acknowledged as the unquestioned king of the Peuketii and bringing all of the relevant cities under his rule. Presently he sees us as a means by which he can achieve this, which is why he's willing to not press the issue to stay on our good side. To a certain extent we can expect for him to have good behavior unless he starts seeing his ambitions as being easier to achieve by some other method. I think that for the moment it may be prudent to not let his ambitions drift higher by dangling Rhyps out of his reach until he can do a bit more for us, but if he does us some heroic deeds and Rhyps still stays maddeningly independent then the offers of the northern king may become more tantalizing. I can't help but feel that whenever he does end up with Rhyps such an ambitious character won't feel content to play second-fiddle to the Greeks who devastated his people, though.
[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.
Most relevant threat out of all of them is the Liburni, as much as I would like to set up in Metapontion. The death of Tyrant Gelo is going to be causing huge turmoil in Sicily and everyone with ambitions there, and while we could play a role with our huge population of refugees from that area and religious influence that's really something that we'd be intervening in rather than the other way around, at least for the moment. Korinthos is concerning given that they are not pals with Kerkyra but given that they strongarmed us into our current alliance we're not really either and would fight more out of obligation than any true passion... as Korinthos really does not have much of a bone to pick with us at the moment, I think that even were they to flatten us in a war that they would pretty much be trying to bring us and our dependent cities in line with propping up their Adriatic ambitions more than like scorching us from the Earth.
The Liburni, on the other hand, are out for our blood. Their pride stings from the humiliations heaped upon them and they remember well the raids we launched that devastated their cities alongside their hated rivals the Enetoi. Their is no doubt that they seek our destruction, and the presence of pirates on the Adriatic Sea is absolutely devastating to us; that discourages traders from taking to the seas, and that jacks up the price on basically anything to be had from Hellas and beyond tremendously as well as starving our info networks.of news from over there. Plus, our calming of the waves enabled some pretty impressive ahistorical Greek colony-planting in the area which allowed us to expand and assert our influence with not much more effort than playing a big brother to the inevitably smaller & weaker northern settlements; keeping the barbaroi of the area weaker makes it easier for sparks of Hellenic civilization on the frontier of the world like ourselves to be sustained by pushing that scary frontier farther away from us.
[X] We need to have the wall fortify the shore and harbour, so that we are protected against naval raids and assault. [-270 talents, wall will protect the shore and harbour, three turns to build].
Marginally superior growth rates are no good if we suffer a naval sneak attack while campaigning out in the Dauni Confederation or somewhere and half of Eretria gets burnt down; we know aside from that that the Liburni are looking for revenge. It only makes sense to have a defensible harbor in light of this concerning threat.
Part of the reason why we were even able to subjugate these Peuketii in the first place was in that they were bickering and disunited. King Harpos now has all but the least of those cities behind him. For the time being, I think it's safe to assume that his interest lies in being fully acknowledged as the unquestioned king of the Peuketii and bringing all of the relevant cities under his rule. Presently he sees us as a means by which he can achieve this, which is why he's willing to not press the issue to stay on our good side. To a certain extent we can expect for him to have good behavior unless he starts seeing his ambitions as being easier to achieve by some other method. I think that for the moment it may be prudent to not let his ambitions drift higher by dangling Rhyps out of his reach until he can do a bit more for us, but if he does us some heroic deeds and Rhyps still stays maddeningly independent then the offers of the northern king may become more tantalizing. I can't help but feel that whenever he does end up with Rhyps such an ambitious character won't feel content to play second-fiddle to the Greeks who devastated his people, though.
[X] Dispatch Kallias north to Arimnus and then on foot throughout Padanian Etruria on the road to Atria to build allies against a potential Liburnian incursion, as they are growing bolder every year and could potentially strike at Eretria.
Most relevant threat out of all of them is the Liburni, as much as I would like to set up in Metapontion. The death of Tyrant Gelo is going to be causing huge turmoil in Sicily and everyone with ambitions there, and while we could play a role with our huge population of refugees from that area and religious influence that's really something that we'd be intervening in rather than the other way around, at least for the moment. Korinthos is concerning given that they are not pals with Kerkyra but given that they strongarmed us into our current alliance we're not really either and would fight more out of obligation than any true passion... as Korinthos really does not have much of a bone to pick with us at the moment, I think that even were they to flatten us in a war that they would pretty much be trying to bring us and our dependent cities in line with propping up their Adriatic ambitions more than like scorching us from the Earth.
The Liburni, on the other hand, are out for our blood. Their pride stings from the humiliations heaped upon them and they remember well the raids we launched that devastated their cities alongside their hated rivals the Enetoi. Their is no doubt that they seek our destruction, and the presence of pirates on the Adriatic Sea is absolutely devastating to us; that discourages traders from taking to the seas, and that jacks up the price on basically anything to be had from Hellas and beyond tremendously as well as starving our info networks.of news from over there. Plus, our calming of the waves enabled some pretty impressive ahistorical Greek colony-planting in the area which allowed us to expand and assert our influence with not much more effort than playing a big brother to the inevitably smaller & weaker northern settlements; keeping the barbaroi of the area weaker makes it easier for sparks of Hellenic civilization on the frontier of the world like ourselves to be sustained by pushing that scary frontier farther away from us.
[X] We need to have the wall fortify the shore and harbour, so that we are protected against naval raids and assault. [-270 talents, wall will protect the shore and harbour, three turns to build].
Marginally superior growth rates are no good if we suffer a naval sneak attack while campaigning out in the Dauni Confederation or somewhere and half of Eretria gets burnt down; we know aside from that that the Liburni are looking for revenge. It only makes sense to have a defensible harbor in light of this concerning threat.
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
@Cetashwayo, is rammed earth construction known here in Europe at this time? It seems to me to be a much cheaper and faster solution than stone walls.
Also, trenches, punji sticks....how good are the shovels of this time? We could go Tunnels of Cu Chi on any landward invader.
Also, trenches, punji sticks....how good are the shovels of this time? We could go Tunnels of Cu Chi on any landward invader.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Greeks do not build with rammed earth.
[X] We cannot simply lay low all our allies when we see fit for the sake of empowering one man. He is capable, it is true, but the people of Rhyps have done nothing to deserve being turned over, and their fear keeps them well in line. There is little fear of them turning away from us, so why give Harpos a further boon so quickly?
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].
[X] Dispatch Kallias south to Metapontion, to gain allies, investigate the embezzlement tied to Lykai,and get a better read on the situation among the Italian Greeks and in Sicily, where it seems likely that the island's foremost tyrant will soon die.
[X] We need to extend the wall to cover a larger area, so that we may account for the city's growth and plan it in a more orderly fashion. [-270 talents will cover a larger area of the city, three turns to build].
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
Yeah, actually, my question was: if we wanted to fund two (or more) options for the wall by dipping into the Sacred Treasury, how should we format the vote?