Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

What sort of tone should I shoot for with this Quest?

  • Go as crack fueled as you can we want Ambush Bug, Snowflame and Duckseid

    Votes: 30 7.7%
  • Go for something silly but keep a little bit of reason

    Votes: 31 7.9%
  • Adam West Camp

    Votes: 27 6.9%
  • Balanced as all things should be

    Votes: 195 50.0%
  • Mostly serious but not self-involvedly so

    Votes: 73 18.7%
  • Dark and brooding but with light at the end of the tunnel

    Votes: 12 3.1%
  • We're evil and we don't want anyone to be happy

    Votes: 22 5.6%

  • Total voters
    390
  • Poll closed .
Yes, and we are very much not trying to recruit to many heroes. Remember we have the soft cap, and we just got an unexpected sweep of learning heroes from skilled doctors, one of which is good for stewardship. Also stronger success tend to come with more options to choose from. We'd have fairly good odds of getting the stewardship heroes we need without needing to guarantee reroll, and decent odds of them also being good for learning.

But if those heroes are split between all stats roughly equally, at least in terms of options, then we will not get a significant number of them and those that are will not necessarily be at the top of their fields.

Saying "soft cap" doesn't apply in this case either since it's more of a quality vs quantity issue rather than decrying quantity outright.

Yes, carl doesn't have especially amazing stats, but he has good ones in two catagories and makes up for them with particularly good traits and a lack of work he insists on doing semi-frequently. Same with Felicity.

Yes, the two heroes who didn't have a particularly great roll to split between them didn't come out the strongest. If we are planning to use them for learning, particularly strong learning teams, that will fix itself relatively quickly with a few learn about actions we want to take anyway.

Felicity and Carl are very good for what they are - Carl is a world-class security expert and Felicity is one of the world's leading experts on computers. They are both good hero units individually, I very much consider them to be outliers, however - in the same way that I consider the original "recruit scientists" subvote that got us Pamela and Ivo to be an outlier.

Please name these scientists. Pamela had human plant serum and environmental preservation. Ivo had his amazo project. Karl is still working on bone serum over 20 turns later.

Meena has Dhawan Particle, but is the rare exception who is excited about all science and so isn't too particular about it, or may simply be easily sated because Dhawan Particle pops up unexpectedly in a lot of learning projects we undertake.

Louise and Caitlin were a package deal and Caitlin more like Louise's assistant than not and were exclusively good for cold engine and not much else before lucky breaks with it and heat chamber much improved Caitlin.

Enoch has achieved his big science project and wants legal help and vengeance instead. Catherine was snatched up early enough that she hadn't had a chance to find her focus yet, which is the whole reason we picked her.

Yes, there are characters who function like scientists for us at times but are distinctly not scientist. Felicity and frost are more engineers than scientists, even if Felicity has grown into the role. Raven is a magic user who will do a lot of research on our behalf but isn't a scientist.

Sure. Most of the scientists from all of the subvotes that we were offered but didn't take, for one thing (Ted Kord, Ray Palmer, Ira Selby, Karen Lou Falkner, all the doctors etc. Dozens of characters).

Also, you are being revisionist here - Pamela wasn't recruited with the goal of the Human Plant serum (the players chose to create that) and Meena wasn't recruited for the Dhawan Particle (players chose to create and pursue it). In terms of particularness, Karl isn't very particular about the bone growth formula either since it's technically complete and has been for a long while.

Caitlin was never particular about anything (she came with Louise as her lacky, with Louise being the particular one - if the players put Louise on Cold Enginer actions but not Caitlin then Caitlin wouldn't have minded)

There' arealso Moon and Villain, and Enoch Brown as you said came with a finished product that we can choose to expand upon or not.

I think that portraying all of our scientists as special snowflakes like this is a bad take.

I really feel we need more stewardship than we need a batch of fresh quirky learning heroes. The main reason we don't have another 2 good learning heroes is there locked up handling stewardship, which isn't always a bad thing. Our flexible hero units tend to get more important things done than the ones who are just good for one thing, Ivo's trait making him the exception.

Depending on what happens this turn, an influx of competent assistants with stewardship to pair with heroes we already have and free up Felicity and Frost to team up with meena is probably a better approach than going strait for scientists. If we decide we need to follow up with a recruit scientists then we can do that.

I agree with you in that we do need Stewardship more than we need Learning - we have taken steps to mitigate our issues with Learning (recruiting doctors, recruiting occultists) so it's not as much of a problem. What I am saying is that if we want good Learning units then we should pursue them directly rather than trying to go about it in a roundabout way through recruiting assistants, especially since the DC for both is roughly equivalent.

I do think that, if possible, we should prioritize recruiting executives and managers over recruiting assistants, since while the DC is a lot higher, the quality of the relevant hero units will be higher and more specific to our needs as well.
 
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Could a production action make the bone serum cheaper and thus more ubiquitous?
No.

I'm not giving you a stewardship action to improve the bone serum, stop asking me for one. I've already said this three times, don't make me repeat myself a fourth time.
@King crimson How does Carl compare to (other) world-class security experts?
How do you qualify a security expert? Because under the definition I tend to use, Catwoman, Batman and Scott Free are all "world-class security experts" even if their expertise is more in breaking or evading security than in putting it to use for others. They still generally need to know how it works in order to get around it.

I'm not going to give the concrete answer you're looking for and instead I'll say that Carl is good enough that Amanda Waller wants to headhunt him for her own projects involving the detaining of metahumans given his past work for the US government. That should give you an idea of at least what the in-universe perception of his quality is by someone with a good amount of knowledge on the subject.
Also, who would you consider to be the best (by whatever definition you'd like to follow) lawyer in the setting? Icon? Someone else?
James Madison.

More seriously, I'd probably give it to Malet Dasim (he's broadly considered to be the best lawyer in all of the Green Lantern Corps and broadly deals with way more legal systems than any individual on earth).

Edit: There's also a strong argument for Themis to be the greatest in-setting lawyer but I consider her to be a bit of a copout answer.
 
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Also, you are being revisionist here - Pamela wasn't recruited with the goal of the Human Plant serum (the players chose to create that) and Meena wasn't recruited for the Dhawan Particle (players chose to create and pursue it). In terms of particularness, Karl isn't very particular about the bone growth formula either since it's technically complete and has been for a long while.
Well I didn't know that. I haven't read thousand plus pages between the brainiac update I joined during and the quest start.
Felicity and Carl are very good for what they are - Carl is a world-class security expert and Felicity is one of the world's leading experts on computers. They are both good hero units individually, I very much consider them to be outliers, however.
With zero justification given we have only taken the action once. They are impressive heroes who have come in handy and accomplished a lot for us despite lacking the high roll that gave us the D'Amaris twins and Frost. By this same logic I could imply the same of the executives and managers action. I do not, because there is zero grounds to think this about either action.
I think that this is a bad take.
It seems a fair take to me that the majority of the actual scientists the threads pick tend to be high maitenance mini projects. It's at least 50/50.

Also, Villain is in my opinion a business man with a medical who has the smarts for research roles rather than a cut and dry scientist. I refuse to consider moon a scientist of any kind. The man is a surgery nut who we can't assign to learning actions that might bore him because he'll just flake to do his own fucked up shit.
What I am saying is that if we want good Learning units then we should pursue them directly rather than trying to go about it in a roundabout way through recruiting assistants, especially since the DC for both is roughly equivalent.
I actually am not particularly interested in learning heroes at the moment, but am willing to compromise and make a characters applicability to learning actions a factor when considering subvotes this turn and next.
I do think that, if possible, we should prioritize recruiting executives and managers over recruiting assistants, since while the DC is a lot higher, the quality of the relevant hero units will be higher and more specific to our needs as well.
I really can't agree. We have to succeed by a more significant margin to make it worth it. You've personally put a lot of emphasis this turn alone, on this page even, about knocking dc down because it's better to take actions with low dc's because of the impact on reward tables.

I'm certain we could get quality heroes for either with major investment, but even an amazing team can fail to crit, as we experienced turn 31. With Competent assistants, as long as we assign a good team, even if the roll doesn't crit, we likely get a quality hero or two.

We need to get Rene back on hero Maitenance with the Therapy action, and if we pick Paige that's another diplomacy hero out. Tora and Beatriz need to do some actual heroing, and we probably have people who will want to talk to another superhero. It's a lot easier to swing a decent team to recruit competent assistants than it is to get an amazing one for Recruit Managers and Executives that might still flop.

Overall you've been very dismissive of the possibility of recruiting competent assistants of good quality and the High DC of recruiting Managers and executives being a negative, with little facts to support either opinion. It isn't the best assessment of the situation in my opinion.
 
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No.

I'm not giving you a stewardship action to improve the bone serum, stop asking me for one. I've already said this three times, don't make me repeat myself a fourth time.

But it is not improving the serum. You can make the creation of something cheaper by creating more specialized facilities to make it, giving a license for other companies to produce it for Lexcorp, getting better distribution deals, and so on.

I only asked you about improving the bone serum once. The second comment was a clarification ("just to make sure that we are on the same page") since I thought I was unclear with what I asked before but did not believe that the answer would change and notably I was not asking (you yourself noted that there was no question and it confused you, and there wasn't since it was specifically just a clarification) and now I'm asking for something that will not improve the serum itself IMO.

No is no obviously, but I think that your assessment is unfair.

With zero justification given we have only taken the action once. They are impressive heroes who have come in handy and accomplished a lot for us despite lacking the high roll that gave us the D'Amaris twins and Frost. By this same logic I could imply the same of the executives and managers action. I do not, because there is zero grounds to think this about either action.

The justification that I edited is that the original scientist recruitment action is also an outlier (turn 2). I assume that back then in the earlier stages of the game more hero units were free and thus recruitment was higher.

The more likely answer is rebalancing of the recruitment mechanics.

It seems a fair take to me that the majority of the actual scientists the threads pick tend to be high maitenance mini projects. It's at least 50/50.

Then that's what the thread chooses. It doesn't mean that it's inherent to the aciton, that's a narrative that you made up.

I really can't agree. We have to succeed by a more significant margin to make it worth it. You've personally put a lot of emphasis this turn alone, on this page even, about knocking dc down because it's better to take actions with low dc's because of the impact on reward tables.

I'm certain we could get quality heroes for either with major investment, but even an amazing team can fail to crit, as we experienced turn 31. With Competent assistants, as long as we assign a good team, even if the roll doesn't crit, we likely get a quality hero or two.

We need to get Rene back on hero Maitenance with the Therapy action, and if we pick Paige that's another diplomacy hero out. Tora and Beatriz need to do some actual heroing, and we probably have people who will want to talk to another superhero. It's a lot easier to swing a decent team to recruit competent assistants than it is to get an amazing one for Recruit Managers and Executives that might still flop.

Overall you've been very dismissive of the possibility of recruiting competent assistants of good quality and the High DC of recruiting Managers and executives being a negative, with little facts to support either opinion. It isn't the best assessment of the situation in my opinion.

Lowering DC for an action is important, but not all actions are created equally - beating one action by 30 can be vastly better than beating another by 200 or more. A good Diplomacy team is highly likely to clear both actions by hundreds of points either way, so it's a moot point.

Actions can always roll a one and fail. That is no reason not to take more difficult actions that will lead to better results. We can always roll a one or a two and not get a reroll.

I'm not being dismissive, I'm saying that *if we can afford it* then one is better than the other. As in, if we gather a +60 team then I'd prefer going for the assistants action, but if we gather a +90 team then I'd go for recruiting managers and executives.

I will also say that "little to no evidence" is absurd, are you going to argue that taking an action specialized in recruiting business experts will not result in recruiting better and more varied business experts compared to a more generalized alternative?
 
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But it is not improving the serum.
Lets play a game of "what did you say that I was responding to?"
Could a production action make the bone serum cheaper and thus more ubiquitous?
I don't know about you but making something cheaper and more ubiquitous sure as hell sounds like improving it.
I only asked you about improving the bone serum once. The second comment was a clarification ("just to make sure that we are on the same page") since I thought I was unclear with what I asked before but did not believe that the answer would change and notably I was not asking (you yourself noted that there was no question and it confused you, and there wasn't since it was specifically just a clarification) and now I'm asking for something that will not improve the serum itself IMO.
Correct you only asked me about the bone serum once. Let's count all the times I said, explicitly "I will not give you a stewardship action to improve the bone serum".

1.
I'm not folding a learning action for the creation of new variants under a stewardship action to sell an existing one.
2.
I will not give a stewardship action that lets you cover a learning action functionality.
3.
All bone serum improvements will be learning actions regardless of whether or not I choose to disaggregate things.
4.
I'm not giving you a stewardship action to improve the bone serum, stop asking me for one

So that's four times not three (meaning I undercounted) in which I said to you "you will not get a stewardship action to improve the bone serum". I can only repeat the same information so many times before I start to suspect someone is deliberately trying to get around wordings and play games with meaning.
I think that your assessment is unfair.
I think you need to stop looking for injustice when I say no to you.

Edit: Maybe my assessment is unfair but when everytime I disagree with you, you think my assessment is unfair, I start to think our perceptions of the world are fundamentally incompatible. If I cannot tell you to stop doing something without you writing out why it is unfair that I am asking you to stop, then you should not be participating in the quest. I am the QM and I need to be able to tell people "no". You don't have to agree with my decisions, but that is a power I need to have in order for the quest to run.
 
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Lets play a game of "what did you say that I was responding to?"

Look, I'm trying to avoid being needlessly argumentative, so I will not be playing this game.

To reiterate - I asked you a question about improving the bone serum with the production action, you said no. This is the only time I asked that. Your second and third addresses were unprompted by me, and the fourth one (in my mind) misreads the issue.

I don't know about you but making something cheaper and more ubiquitous sure as hell sounds like improving it.

I think that this depends on the definition of "product" used.

If Coca Cola found a way to drop their prices then the product of Coca Cola would be better (more bang for your buck) but the Cola itself wouldn't (the recipe would not improve and the contents will remain the same).

If you don't agree with this reasoning then I'll accept your word for it, but I don't think that it's an unreasonable thing to ask and in my mind it's a nuance worth clarifying.

I think you need to stop looking for injustice when I say no to you.

Edit: Maybe my assessment is unfair but when everytime I disagree with you, you think my assessment is unfair, I start to think our perceptions of the world are fundamentally incompatible. If I cannot tell you to stop doing something without you writing out why it is unfair that I am asking you to stop, then you should not be participating in the quest. I am the QM and I need to be able to tell people "no". You don't have to agree with my decisions, but that is a power I need to have in order for the quest to run.

I respect your decisions and I understand that no means no. What bothers me is this part:

I'm not giving you a stewardship action to improve the bone serum, stop asking me for one.

Since it attributes to me a behavior that in my mind is not applicable.
 
Edit: Maybe my assessment is unfair but when everytime I disagree with you, you think my assessment is unfair, I start to think our perceptions of the world are fundamentally incompatible. If I cannot tell you to stop doing something without you writing out why it is unfair that I am asking you to stop, then you should not be participating in the quest. I am the QM and I need to be able to tell people "no". You don't have to agree with my decisions, but that is a power I need to have in order for the quest to run.
I wouldn't say you are being unfair. Nobody134 had a question about a possible action for the quest and you gave him an answer, which then devolved into an extensive drain on your self acknowledged limited free time by a back and forth discussion related, directly or indirectly, to the action request. Naturally you have the right to assert that you do not have the time for this circus of a discussion and that he should drop the subject.

I think that this depends on the definition of "product" used.
The product is a one of a kind miracle serum with it's own unique lab which exists to best facilitate the transformation process involved. The advanced labs we are building this turn are our means of DC lowering. You are trying to fit a canning machine into an laboratory shaped hole. Even if there was a remotely plausible streamlining of the process for mass use, it would save money rather than lower DC, which would likely be dismissed as worthless by the thread in the long run.
Since it attributes to me a behavior that in my mind is not applicable.
You have either been asking for and attempting to justify receiving an action, understandable but clearly pushed to extremes in this case, or you have been arguing the semantics behind your perception of the nature of the bone growth serum and how the processes your describing would interact with it to make it cheaper or easier, purely to insist that quest applicability not with standing, your logic is sound, which is distinctly not a qm concern.
 
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@King crimson once a Zeta Beam station connects to a location, how much of a DC drop would it cause to actions in that city/country, generally? Is there going to be a big demand from the US government or military for them (assuming we make a big announcement about it)?
 
@King crimson once a Zeta Beam station connects to a location, how much of a DC drop would it cause to actions in that city/country, generally? Is there going to be a big demand from the US government or military for them (assuming we make a big announcement about it)?
At minimum I'd expect Waller might become very interested in moving whatever vault of goodies and archive of secrets she wants no one but her to have access to to a secured facility with no entrances besides a zeta beam transit station she can aim a million guns at.
 
At minimum I'd expect Waller might become very interested in moving whatever vault of goodies and archive of secrets she wants no one but her to have access to to a secured facility with no entrances besides a zeta beam transit station she can aim a million guns at.
That's fine as long as she can pay for it. 💰

@King crimson sorry for the second tag, but I also wanted to ask if the DC for making more will fall since we'll have one station already set up, or if it requires the "improve zeta beams" action only. Would learning about physics/engineering lower the dc to build them?
 
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This is the only time I asked that. Your second and third addresses were unprompted by me, and the fourth one (in my mind) misreads the issue.
The second and third addresses were me reiterating my point in an attempt to clarify things for you. They were directly prompted by you asking for clarification. The fourth time was me asking for you to stop as I had stated my position multiple times.
Since it attributes to me a behavior that in my mind is not applicable.
How exactly am I supposed to tell you to stop asking for this action? I'd said multiple times that I would not give a stewardship action that fulfills this functionality and you asked me again. How am I supposed to communicate that I don't want you to ask me a different variant of the same point?

It has become increasingly clear to me that we cannot communicate productively with one another. Just last week we had an argument over EXP for write-ins. Previously we've had other notable incidents in which we argued for a very long time (most notably the "hero recruitment being worthwhile" debacle). I don't have it in me to continue doing this. I have neither the time nor the patience nor the inclination to quarrel with you constantly. Maybe once I would have but as of right now I'm done with repeating this song and dance.

I'm going to try and politely ask you to leave. Feel free to air out your grievances against me outside of the thread but I can't keep doing this song and dance. I've tried being patient and there are elements of your contribution that I enjoy but frankly dealing with arguing with you has gotten draining and frustrating to a point that I can't do it anymore.

Please leave the thread.
 
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@King crimson once a Zeta Beam station connects to a location, how much of a DC drop would it cause to actions in that city/country, generally? Is there going to be a big demand from the US government or military for them (assuming we make a big announcement about it)?
If I were being idealistic/realistic, the US government would declare it a mandatory service and force you to sell the service to everyone else in your area (similar to what is done with electricity). There'll be a massive demand to use it and if you make a big enough announcement the US government would be willing to subsidize the construction of more zeta beam stations.

As for the DC drop, it varies pretty wildly, but off the top of my head, a potential drop of 20 as a floor seems pretty reasonable for every place outside of the US.
@King crimson sorry for the second tag, but I also wanted to ask if the DC for making more will fall since we'll have one station already set up, or if it requires the "improve zeta beams" action only. Would learning about physics/engineering lower the dc to build them?
The DC will not fall simply for completing the action and having one station set up (I'm being nice and making the first two easier than every subsequent station added into the network).

Learning about physics/engineering would eventually lower the DC to build them but practically speaking you're at least somewhat far off from being able to do so with either without a really good roll. Once you do the action a few times and build up a bit more of a base, then you'll be able to get much more consistent DC reductions.
 
If I were being idealistic/realistic, the US government would declare it a mandatory service and force you to sell the service to everyone else in your area (similar to what is done with electricity). There'll be a massive demand to use it and if you make a big enough announcement the US government would be willing to subsidize the construction of more zeta beam stations.
As long as they're paying for it 🤑:lol:

Hopefully, they're also willing to invest in our construction company and our alien research division (we milk it for all we can if they want these all over the country, that's a big action commitment unless we tell them how to do it). Is there a way we can blackbox it further?

Thank you for the reply.
 
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As long as they're paying for it 🤑:lol:
To clarify things a little bit. The "mandatory service" aspect will not come into play in the quest. That's a level of realism I don't want to put in the quest and I'm fine with giving you guys what IRL would be pretty solidly an illegal monopoly if you start a transport service using it. The "government subsidizes you to build more" can come into play in quest.
Hopefully, they're also willing to invest in our construction company and our alien research division (we milk it for all we can if they want these all over the country).
The construction company is shaky, but the alien research division is definitely possible, you just need a big win to the right people.
Is there a way we can blackbox it further?
I assume you're talking about the Zeta Beam transport system? I suppose you could kill everyone who worked on the schematics or ensure that nobody gets to observe the full process of putting it together, but that's a level of paranoia that has its own set of consequences.
 
When we show off the Zeta beam station at the Lexpo I want to be in Japan or something and have a video feed of us on a massive monitor do a short speech and then BOOM we're in the room with everyone. Really flex on our accomplishments.
 
When we show off the Zeta beam station at the Lexpo I want to be in Japan or something and have a video feed of us on a massive monitor do a short speech and then BOOM we're in the room with everyone. Really flex on our accomplishments.
Not shooting down the idea, but we should at least consider the ramifications of showing it off right away to the public rather backroom VIP access style to the military/government. There is a brewing cold war after all. Need to measure the potential value to our Allies in being able to sneak people or objects across borders through our transit stations before the public, and our/their enemies know about it.
 
Not shooting down the idea, but we should at least consider the ramifications of showing it off right away to the public rather backroom VIP access style to the military/government. There is a brewing cold war after all. Need to measure the potential value to our Allies in being able to sneak people or objects across borders through our transit stations before the public, and our/their enemies know about it.
No reason we couldn't still do it with the video speech, just privately instead of publicly.
 
[ ] Test Venom compatibility
DC ??? (Human-Plant Integration formula DC ???, Bone growth formula DC ???, conventional steroids DC ???, Whisper's Corpse DC ???, Gingo fruit juice DC ???) Venom is an interesting substance that could potentially be combined with other substances to generate interesting effects.
Hey @King crimson next turn can we get Enoch's growth formula added to the Venom testing? Or is that locked behind the human version?
 
Hey @King crimson next turn can we get Enoch's growth formula added to the Venom testing? Or is that locked behind the human version?
I think that's ill advised. The main issue with his growth formula is slightly more aggressive giant animals. Not really wise to introduce an already more aggressive giant goat to mood worsening super steroid.

What we might do is develop the medical version of Bone growth serum and combine that with venom for a super soldier cocktail. They would still have greater durability, strength, and regeneration from Bone growth, and Venom would increase that strength further.
 
Hey @King crimson next turn can we get Enoch's growth formula added to the Venom testing? Or is that locked behind the human version?
I'll add Enoch's growth formula.

Edit: It has been added. The DC listed should be 23?
I thought we lost Whisper's corpse?
You did, I just forgot to cut it. I'll fix that soon.
The main issue with his growth formula is slightly more aggressive giant animals.
You're technically not wrong but I want to point out that it's less that the growth formula is making the animals aggressive and more that being massive warps their natural fight or flight responses. It does broadly result in slightly more aggressive giant animals but its also somewhat dependent on which species is getting enlarged.
 
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I think that's ill advised. The main issue with his growth formula is slightly more aggressive giant animals. Not really wise to introduce an already more aggressive giant goat to mood worsening super steroid.
If we're going to be giving the growth formula to animals to weaponize them*. It's probably going to be used for dogs. Though I'll admit combining it with Bone growth to bring back horse cavalry amuses me.

But the action isn't for actually doing it it's for testing what it'll do. If we do make it a super soldier serum for humans combining it with venom(or whatever we call our version venom) might make them even stronger. If it turns people into roided up berserkers we just put a warning label about combining the two on the product.

*The most common use for them is probably going to be making meat cheaper. After we make some tougher animal pens.
 
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