Lex Sedet In Vertice: A Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest

[King crimson]

I asked for the action and you provided the DC for it and then I said that I wouldn't consider taking it given the cost/effect ratio, and you used that fact to further cement it in your mind as a throwaway action - I have been considering taking it, but now I'm not since the effort it'd take is too high (and the fact that IMO you might lowball the effect given your thoughts on the action certainly doesn't help)

It's fine to disagree but saying "well now that you've tried to argue about it I disagree twice as much" is needlessly contrarian

Click to shrink...

This is starting to get to the point of us talking past each other. If I'm allowed to defend myself and my character here's my basic take on the events as I perceived them.

1. You ask for a write-in option
2. I say that the write-in option matches up with preexisting options but I can get why you'd want the distinction so I agree to give you the write-in even though I don't think it's wholly unique so much as it is decoupling and more cleanly delineating stuff
3. You correctly point out that some of my examples of overlap were not perhaps the best
4. I retort that even if the specific example is bad there's still so much overlap that I don't really see it as that distinct
5. You argue that you should get exp and specifically argue that because it would potentially allow you to do an action (missile training) that I'm not going to include in quest due to it's specificity.
6. I outline my position about missile training and restate that even if certain examples previously given were bad (black sites and police bases) I don't see the actual utility provided being that distinct even if I do think there is value in giving you this specific action due to it more cleanly letting you get at stuff
7. You then give an argument I found entirely unconvincing about how it "makes sense" that you should have it while directly bringing up the utility covered by the equivalents as unique utility (lowering DC's of training forces). You then bring in a lot of distinction between my bad examples that I already agreed were bad and reiterate that the lowering training DC's action is why it's a unique action, even though that functionality is why I think it isn't. Only then do you bring up the idea of a "throwaway action" when it literally has not been brought up before. Literally in the comment you are quoting I say

   I can see the value in having a more direct focused way to lower the DC for training your forces

   Click to shrink...

   and yet you somehow think that lowering the DC is unique and that I view it as throwaway.
8. I get annoyed at you, point out that you've not made any argument that has convinced me that it's unique and worth giving exp for. I make an admittedly hasty comparison (the better one to have been made is that the equivalent "develop X place" subvote options also lowered the DC's you seem to think are unique to your write-in) to attempt to explain once more why you're not getting the exp.
9. In that same post in which I'm already annoyed at you, I get annoyed at you bringing the term "throwaway" into things and basically accusing me of undervaluing the option. I previously had thought that the action had value, including at the DC I provided it, but hearing that you had no intention of taking the action kind of annoyed me. The point of write-in actions is not to simulate realism, or to let you big brain your way into cheesing the quest, but rather to let people do things for fun and come up with unique angles I might not have considered. Hearing someone go "I'd never take this option, but I think it can be better than the trash you gave me after I asked you for it" is infuriating. As such I made the comment I did about how you convinced me that the action was "throwaway" because apparently it lowering DC's on training your forces (something I explicitly said it would do as a decoupled option) wasn't enough for you, you also had to get the exp for it

Now we come to where we are now. You claim that this is not about exp and start to claim that I'm undervaluing the action and being unfair. You then go on to say that I'm being needlessly contrarian because "now I disagree twice as much" after you argued with me. I never considered it a throwaway action until you started talking about it being a throwaway action.

You claim that it's not about exp, but the entire conversation on whether or not it's a distinct action or whether the functionality of

having a more direct focused way to lower the DC for training your forces

Click to shrink...

is distinct from preexisting options is enough to give you exp. In my opinion its not and even though I gave you the write-in, I'm not giving you the exp for it. I gave you the write-in because I thought it had value to be pulled out of a more round about method of getting it. I didn't think it was unique enough to be worth exp, but I still thought it was worth making an action you could directly pick and that the write-ins inclusion had value.

I could have phrased things better, and some of my examples were in fact bad examples. At the same time can you see how frustrating it is for someone to miss the main thrust of your argument and then to basically turn around and assign all sorts of negative labels to your behavior and your attempts to give what they'd asked for in a reasonable manner?

 

[HavocOrder0999]

@King crimson Nightshade is capable of traveling almost anywhere through her shadows

Nightshade had been able to travel instantaneously from Metropolis to Japan and back through her shadow portals, was able to freely exit and enter moving vehicles and could take objects with her. There was even some theorizing that she could instantaneously jump to the dark side of the moon at any given time, though obviously this idea wasn't tested due to not exactly having many safety precautions for if things go wrong.

Click to shrink...

Is it possible for her to take a Zeta Beam Station with her to the moon? Obviously not in small parts, that would take forever for her to assemble alone, but if we pair her up with Jinx to learn about Shadow Magic, or create darkness generators to cover an entire station, could that do it to put it on the moon and make building a moon base much easier? The spacesuits should be good enough to survive the surface of the moon, and combined with the lifter exosuits they should be able to sustain a work crew up there, they would need to keep sending them back and forth each day.

 

[Randino Treviani]

I think a multi ton structure the size of an average house is a bit beyond eve's ability overall.

 

[PickleJar]

@King crimson Nightshade is capable of traveling almost anywhere through her shadows

Is it possible for her to take a Zeta Beam Station with her to the moon? Obviously not in small parts, that would take forever for her to assemble alone, but if we pair her up with Jinx to learn about Shadow Magic, or create darkness generators to cover an entire station, could that do it to put it on the moon and make building a moon base much easier? The spacesuits should be good enough to survive the surface of the moon, and combined with the lifter exosuits they should be able to sustain a work crew up there, they would need to keep sending them back and forth each day.

Click to shrink...

Probably with some training. In the comics, she is capable of teleporting entire city blocks and streets at once, and she was in the middle of her training when she did that and her power only grew from there on out.

 

[HavocOrder0999]

I think a multi ton structure the size of an average house is a bit beyond eve's ability overall.

Click to shrink...

Probably with some training. In the comics, she is capable of teleporting entire city blocks and streets at once, and she was in the middle of her training when she did that and her power only grew from there on out.

Click to shrink...

That's why I'm hoping she could work on Shadow Magic with Jinx at some point (both on the action would only be 18 on a DC 34 learning action, so there should probably be a third hero on the action). Another option is having Eve practice her shadow powers in the training room, though I think the Shadow Magic action would be more interesting.

 

[Negation]

@King crimson Nightshade is capable of traveling almost anywhere through her shadows



Is it possible for her to take a Zeta Beam Station with her to the moon? Obviously not in small parts, that would take forever for her to assemble alone, but if we pair her up with Jinx to learn about Shadow Magic, or create darkness generators to cover an entire station, could that do it to put it on the moon and make building a moon base much easier? The spacesuits should be good enough to survive the surface of the moon, and combined with the lifter exosuits they should be able to sustain a work crew up there, they would need to keep sending them back and forth each day.

Click to shrink...

I was thinking of making her a space suit so she can send herself to the dark side of the moon to set up Zeta Beam & Mirror stations

 

[PickleJar]

That's why I'm hoping she could work on Shadow Magic with Jinx at some point (both on the action would only be 18 on a DC 34 learning action, so there should probably be a third hero on the action). Another option is having Eve practice her shadow powers in the training room, though I think the Shadow Magic action would be more interesting.

Click to shrink...

Having her take Learning actions seems like a bit of a waste given her stats and lack of good coops with units who have high Learning (except for Cassandra)

The best option would be to take a Martial training action with Carol and one of the magic users that we end up recruiting this turn.

Nightshade's magic allows her to create shadow constructs like Carol's ring does (though her constructs can be either inanimate or living, autonomous shadow homunculi) so Carol could be helpful with uncovering that, and having a good magic specialist would help her with her actual magic use.

 

[AizenMD]

If Nightshade learned divination could she open portals from afar?

 

[Randino Treviani]

If Nightshade learned divination could she open portals from afar?

Click to shrink...

Wrong magic I'm afraid. Your thinking of scrying. Depends on how capable she is with it. Not everyone is flexible with magic and she's not the youngest woman and her skills are more reflexive than controlled magic.

 

[HavocOrder0999]

Nightshade could drop a Kryptonite bomb right behind Superman while he's holding still if he's low enough to cast a shadow. She could also do the same to Wayne Enterprises and sabotage their labs, or drop an EMP bomb to wipe their servers. She just needs to be careful to not be seen by any cameras.

 

[Randino Treviani]

Nightshade could drop a Kryptonite bomb right behind Superman while he's holding still if he's low enough to cast a shadow. She could also do the same to Wayne Enterprises and sabotage their labs, or drop an EMP bomb to wipe their servers. She just needs to be careful to not be seen by any cameras.

Click to shrink...

We never want her in one of Batman/Wayne's buildings. There are tunnels under Wayne industries. Better to have her transport a large laser with an emergency detonator and some kind of failsafe melting protocol that reduces all evidence to a puddle of molten steel.

 

[jonasquinn]

Helena's trait adds +5 to the relevant stat whenever she takes an action against someone she hates so your calculation is wrong.

Click to shrink...

That's fair, I missed that. In that case we're both wrong and their total bonus is +47.

 

[King crimson]

@King crimson Nightshade is capable of traveling almost anywhere through her shadows



Is it possible for her to take a Zeta Beam Station with her to the moon? Obviously not in small parts, that would take forever for her to assemble alone, but if we pair her up with Jinx to learn about Shadow Magic, or create darkness generators to cover an entire station, could that do it to put it on the moon and make building a moon base much easier? The spacesuits should be good enough to survive the surface of the moon, and combined with the lifter exosuits they should be able to sustain a work crew up there, they would need to keep sending them back and forth each day.

Click to shrink...

The answer is yes, she can do this. You need a space suit good enough to survive being on the moon and a shadow big enough to cover the entire zeta beam station but the answer is yes.

There is admittedly an issue of locking the thing in place (the zeta beam station needs to be loose enough that she can have it move through a portal but sturdy enough to cling to the moon's surface) but once that issue is resolved (and it's not a difficult issue to solve) Nightshade can get stuff to the moon and make building a moon base easier.

I think a multi ton structure the size of an average house is a bit beyond eve's ability overall.

Click to shrink...

Yes and no. If you've got a shadow the size of an average house then Eve can theoretically move it. There are follow up problems (moving an object of that size and then making sure that the act of moving it through doesn't result in it drifting off into space), but size is pretty conspicuously not really a limitation of her power right now so long as she has a big enough shadow.

It's off topic but hypothetically her power is at it's most broken during a solar eclipse because then she's got an absolutely massive shadow to work with.

Probably with some training. In the comics, she is capable of teleporting entire city blocks and streets at once, and she was in the middle of her training when she did that and her power only grew from there on out.

Click to shrink...

So while training would make it easier, even the powerset Eve currently has would let her push massive objects provided she could generate enough force to actually move the thing.

 

[wabbitking]

The answer is yes, she can do this. You need a space suit good enough to survive being on the moon and a shadow big enough to cover the entire zeta beam station but the answer is yes.

Click to shrink...

Shouldn't be much of a problem. First send her over with a big ass tarp and a few extending poles and then have her come back with some robots programmed to rig it up.

 

[HavocOrder0999]

There is admittedly an issue of locking the thing in place (the zeta beam station needs to be loose enough that she can have it move through a portal but sturdy enough to cling to the moon's surface) but once that issue is resolved (and it's not a difficult issue to solve) Nightshade can get stuff to the moon and make building a moon base easier.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for the reply.

There is some form of industrial trailer that can carry it, just need to teach Eve to drive and park it to keep the station secure. Gravity shouldn't be too much of an issue since it's heavy enough that it shouldn't fly off, one-sixth of however many tons it weighs is enough to keep it down I'd hope.

 

[wabbitking]

Thank you for the reply.

There is some form of industrial trailer that can carry it, just need to teach Eve to drive and park it to keep the station secure. Gravity shouldn't be too much of an issue since it's heavy enough that it shouldn't fly off, one-sixth of however many tons it weighs is enough to keep it down I'd hope.

Click to shrink...

We probably wouldn't even need to have her learn to drive it herself. She can transport others so we could hire a professional, get a robot to do it or just ask NASA, they'd kill to get easy and cheap access to the moon.

 

[PickleJar]

Wrong magic I'm afraid. Your thinking of scrying. Depends on how capable she is with it. Not everyone is flexible with magic and she's not the youngest woman and her skills are more reflexive than controlled magic.

Click to shrink...

Scrying is a form of divination.

Naturally any form of scrying (seeing through objects), augury (using rituals to predict the future), clairvoyance (obtaining information magically) or future sight (knowing the future because of magic) is some form of divination.

Click to shrink...

So while training would make it easier, even the powerset Eve currently has would let her push massive objects provided she could generate enough force to actually move the thing.

Click to shrink...

So her magic power is "static" so to speak, and she just gets better at using it?

How is "magical power" determined anyway? I get that skill can probably let you use your powers more effectively or whatever, but how is it determined in pure energy output?

Thank you for the reply.

There is some form of industrial trailer that can carry it, just need to teach Eve to drive and park it to keep the station secure. Gravity shouldn't be too much of an issue since it's heavy enough that it shouldn't fly off, one-sixth of however many tons it weighs is enough to keep it down I'd hope.

Click to shrink...

We have artificial gravity generators. There's a Learning action to improve them, but they're probably still useable for what you are describing with some jury-rigging

 

[King crimson]

So her magic power is "static" so to speak, and she just gets better at using it?

Click to shrink...

No, I have no idea how you got to this conclusion as it's entirely removed from what I was saying. I wasn't saying that Eve can't become more powerful or that he magic couldn't get more powerful. All I was saying was that "even with her current ability set Eve could pull this off". I have no idea where the idea of powers being "static" came into things when I was just pointing out that she could already do it.

How is "magical power" determined anyway? I get that skill can probably let you use your powers more effectively or whatever, but how is it determined in pure energy output?

Click to shrink...

The big problem with "magical power" is that it's a bit of a nebulous term to dissect. After all using magic to view someone across the galaxy isn't technically expelling energy in a conventional manner but it's still clearly taxing on magic users and isn't easy to do. Additionally is magical power versatility (being able to do 100 things) or expertise (being able to do 1 thing really well)? How does scale of things come into play? Duration of time of the effect (is a fireball that blows up the earth in a single shot then vanishes after 5 seconds more powerful than a fireball that does no damage but lasts for 1 billion years)? A lot of conversation around this is difficult because the language can get really slippery really fast which can make it difficult to grasp.

Broadly speaking attempting to remove "magical power" from skill is an exercise in futility as to some extent magical power is derived from skill and clever work arounds. For a fairly clear cut example of this, Merlin has created some of the most magically complex and the most magically powerful items and spell work out there. For you to try and divorce the two kind of misses why his magic is as effective as it is.

That being said magical power broadly is determined from birth in two senses. The first is that some people are born with more magical potential than others. Jinx was born with a capacity to do magic that others don't have. She didn't earn it or do something special for it, but broadly speaking she has more magical power than Cassandra who got nothing at birth. This is doubly true with Raven who can use magic at greater strength then most of her magical peers because of her half demon biology making her innately more magical and thus the universe designates her as "better" at magic. This does benefit a fair bit from the non-birth related aspect of magical power as having magical power from birth is likely to affect your own conception towards it. The second way that magical power is affected by birth is that if you're born tougher then you can generally do more with spells and work around backlash when trying to force the universe to conform to your will. To use Trigon as an example, Trigon could hypothetically cast a spell to blow up the entire planet with no real issues. Any human being would have issues with this as they are born with a sense of self-preservation and a lack of toughness to survive such a spell.

It's also not determined from birth in the sense that magic is to an extent derived of willpower and thus wanting something more can make magic more powerful and allow you to juice up your spells. Generally speaking willpower/insanity in trying to "reject reality and substitute your own" is not something solely determined by birth (though it is influenced by it). This can let people grow more "magically powerful" in certain situations or as they grow older.

The entire concept of magical power gets even more complicated and confusing when looking at magic that draws upon something else other than the user directly. There are rituals that can enhance magic power, demons can offer deals to grant magic power and more. As such a person can use more magical power then they actually have by drawing upon a source external to themselves. For a basic example Billy Batson when untransformed has zero magical power (he cannot do anything). When transformed into Captain Marvel/Shazam he can call upon the power of Zeus and use magical powers. While he is still limiting himself, the "pool" of magic power he is drawing upon is not his own so he hypothetically has more innate power then he can use. This can get even more complicated. For a basic example in quest, Karkull broadly speaking has more power than Jinx (he can do magic on a scale that affects a city near instantly, Jinx cannot) but when tapping into

The concept gets even messier when we start talking about gods (which are egregores that theoretically have complete domain over a certain conception of a distinct area of magic), Lords of Order and Chaos (they don't function like humans due to being singularities who are not bound to linear progression through time and space) and things like the Endless (who regularly interact with magic but are instead more cosmic forces and there power is defined more as "I am a fundamental force of reality". How much energy is Death expending when making someone die when she literally is that concept?).

TLDR: Magical power is really hard to pinpoint and determine what it actually is and thus any conversation about it is doomed to get hung up on technicalities and nonsense. Broadly speaking I think a solid layperson definition applicable to most of the human entities you'll encounter in quest is that "magical power" is determined by circumstances of birth primarily and then development of specific mindsets and practice and/or rituals to enhance power or draw upon another's power. Attempting to use this definition outside of a loose layperson sense will break down and you can very easily find examples that fall outside of this definition/explanation.

Edit: Generally when I talk about "magical power" (which I have done a few times), it's in the sense of one spell cancelling out another (ex: Magician A wants to cast a fireball while Magician B wants to prevent fireballs from occurring. The winner will be whoever can affect reality the most and thus is the most "magically powerful"). However fully separating that definition of magical power from skill is kind of misleading as a sufficiently skilled magician can have their effect win out without actually overriding the other person's magic (ex: Magician A casts fireball and Magician B temporarily cuts oxygen in the room so that the moment the fireball stops being sustained it snuffs out. Magician A still made the fireball, but Magician B cancelled it without overriding their spell).

 

[H2F2]

It's also not determined from birth in the sense that magic is to an extent derived of willpower and thus wanting something more can make magic more powerful and allow you to juice up your spells. Generally speaking willpower/insanity in trying to "reject reality and substitute your own" is not something solely determined by birth (though it is influenced by it). This can let people grow more "magically powerful" in certain situations or as they grow older.

Click to shrink...

I remember you once mentioned that if the Joker had been trained in chaos magic, he would have been a mediocre, albeit unpredictable magician. Is it because he's not crazy enough, or does he just have no talent, and only madness allows him to do magic in any way?

 

[King crimson]

I remember you once mentioned that if the Joker had been trained in chaos magic, he would have been a mediocre, albeit unpredictable magician. Is it because he's not crazy enough, or does he just have no talent, and only madness allows him to do magic in any way?

Click to shrink...

It's a combination of him not having a lot of innate talent, and his mindset not actually not being all that conducive to chaos magic. My depiction of Joker, while still able to roll with the punches, is kind of not all that great with chaos. He claims to like chaos sure, but he likes it when it's on his terms and gets annoyed or frustrated when his plans (which often are pretty carefully crafted) are foiled or modified in ways outside of his specification. Drawing a bit on the DCAU version, Joker's actually so against chaos that he gets mad whenever someone else does his plans or takes the credit for them rather than rolling with the punches.

For Joker it's a combination of a lack of innate talent and a lack of a mindset that would really let you tap into chaos magic at its most effective. He could no doubt leverage a little bit of chaos magic to be creative and unpredictable with it, but his own nature as both a guy without a lot of talent and an individual who actually hates losing control make it so that he can't actually do all that much with it.

Edit: The Joker's lack of magical talent, and his awareness of his lack of magical talent are the biggest inhibitors to him becoming a master magician. That being said even if he had some talent, he'd still arguably not be an incredible chaos magic user because he doesn't actually like deviation from his plans all that much so he's fundamentally constricting his own capabilities with chaos magic. He's got a decent mindset for exploiting chaos when he's forced to, but he doesn't actually like inducing chaos into his own plans.

Edit #2: If they had equal talent in the art, Victor Zsasz would actually be a better chaos magic user then Joker because Mr. Zsasz actually doesn't care about the outcome of things so long as people die. His view of the world is a lot less about cause and effect and ascribing meaning and importance to things than the Joker is.

Edit #3: The best possible mindset for a chaos magic user would be to view everything as ephemeral and meaningless and everything as fluid and ever-changing. It's an inhuman, illogical mindset.

 

[H2F2]

Edit: The Joker's lack of magical talent, and his awareness of his lack of magical talent are the biggest inhibitors to him becoming a master magician. That being said even if he had some talent, he'd still arguably not be an incredible chaos magic user because he doesn't actually like deviation from his plans all that much so he's fundamentally constricting his own capabilities with chaos magic. He's got a decent mindset for exploiting chaos when he's forced to, but he doesn't actually like inducing chaos into his own plans.

Click to shrink...

So the Joker would make a good probability manipulator? One who would not rigidly program the paths that events would take and allow them to cause undesirable collateral damage, but would clearly and carefully preserve the final desired outcome.

 

[King crimson]

So the Joker would make a good probability manipulator? One who would not rigidly program the paths that events would take and allow them to cause undesirable collateral damage, but would clearly and carefully preserve the final desired outcome.

Click to shrink...

I think he might be better at that then at chaos magic but what you're describing is something that's really hard to pull of magically (busted magical items like the sword of Beowulf use "probability manipulation" to prevent certain outcomes from occurring and that took Merlin to make. forcing a specific outcome is generally harder especially as variables mount. It's easy to use magic to ensure you always draw the right card or that a coin always lands on heads. It's a lot harder to craft a spell that ensures that you'll always win at poker because the variables that need to be controlled keep on compounding and getting more complicated).

If I were to describe the magical discipline I think the Joker would be best at, I think he'd be best at something with illusions or conjuration of items. He still wouldn't be a master magician under most reasonable circumstances but that sort of magic plays well with what he's good at and doesn't force him to start bending his thinking too far away from how he already thinks about stuff.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Edit: This might be a controversial opinion but as a pseudo-game designer. I like ambiguity. There's a reason why I have a bunch of options with a DC of ??? for them and it's not just for immersion or difficulty. I like ambiguity in games and I think it makes them more fun. Beyond the fun of letting people gamble a bit, a win when you know the outcome and thus cannot lose is boring, while a win in which you make the right guesses and the right moves feels a lot more earned.

Click to shrink...

To a large extent I agree. There are some caveats.

One is that the psychology of gameplay can turn "uncertain outcome" moves into "moves no one ever tries" or conversely into "moves someone always tries." If gameplay as a whole channelizes players into making conservative, predictable moves with known results, or if the penalty for cracking open a gacha box and being unlucky is high enough, then the players will avoid unpredictable outcomes like the plague.

On SV, questers will very often vote for an interesting 'black box' outcome with uncertain possibilities if confronted with a short list of multiple choice selections.

At the same time they are, as this quest demonstrates, very unlikely to take such outcomes when they have a long, long, long laundry list of known options for advancing their goals. Especially if the one thing they do know about ???-DC actions is that the penalty for failure can be extremely punitive if the failure is by a large enough margin. Lex has been doing well in this quest in no small part because the players have carefully avoided the punishing consequences of failing an action by 50-100 points or more.

...

I think the really valuable kind of ambiguity in gameplay is in how the mechanics work "under the hood." There should be parts that are transparent to the players, but things like "what can impose bonuses or penalties on an action" needs to be determined at QM discretion and 'behind the DM screen,' as it were. Because to a large extent these bonuses and penalties exist as a way for the QM to impose basic logic and common sense on the consequences of a decision, when the "rules as written" do not directly impose this logic themselves.

For instance, if we throw 15 hero units into Gotham to indirectly but deniably make it easier for Helena Bertinelli to kill Mandragora, the odds are that a lot of them are going to be stirring up confusion that will interfere with each others' efforts. It's a near certainty that the sheer amount of chaos we're creating will cause Mandragora to do everything in his power to lay low and protect himself even if he doesn't know an assassin is after him. It'll attract attention from other powers in Gotham that could result in our hero units getting pushback and coming back to us rather dented. And it means 15 different vectors for Batman (and other heroic figures) to notice that we're meddling in Gotham and trace things back to us.

As a matter of common sense, this should have some negative potential ramifications, simply because it's so disproportionate to the scale of the problem (assassinate one B-list mafia guy).

But at the same time, most of the bad consequences likely to arise from us doing this rather excessive thing would be the result of forces unknown to us arising to complicate our efforts or bite us in the butt after the thing was done. So in-character we cannot predict exactly how bad the consequences would be or what would cause them to arise. And thus any out-of-character request for that information has to be slapped down. Otherwise, OOC requests for mechanical information start to take the place of IC attempts to make things go well by implementing plans that make sense.

 

[PickleJar]

@King crimson Could there exist hero units with high Stewardship or a strong Stewardship trait (in the same vain that Nightshade's works) that use their abilities with divination to plan large-scale projects more effectively and see "diverging paths" and/or figure out less risky ways to go about certain things?

Also, are there any protections from using magic to manipulate the stock market and crash the economy or something?

 

[King crimson]

@King crimson Could there exist hero units with high Stewardship or a strong Stewardship trait (in the same vain that Nightshade's works) that use their abilities with divination to plan large-scale projects more effectively and see "diverging paths" and/or figure out less risky ways to go about certain things?

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure I understand this question.

I could hypothetically design a hero unit that works that way. That doesn't mean that there is or will be a hero unit that functions that way. On top of that "divination" is really, really broad. You seem to be describing some form of prescience or precognition (which is arguably a subset of divination).

Broadly speaking what you're describing seems to align with how Atrocitus uses his abilities (he sees a myriad of possible futures and then attempts to prune as many branching paths as possible to give the actual future he wants the best chance of occurring), but he's not really stewardship focused at all. Lilith Clay in the comics could occasionally do something along these lines but it wasn't clear and it definitely wasn't stewardship focused.

In general I'll say that if a hero has the ability to see "possible futures" it'll almost certainly not be focused to just interacting with a certain stat and instead be more general.

Also, are there any protections from using magic to manipulate the stock market and crash the economy or something?

Click to shrink...

Technically no, functionally yes.

Broadly, outside of the US government employing its own magicians to block general exploitation there isn't really much defenses against messing with the stock market. That being said, if you were to attempt to pull a scheme to mind control people into a pump and dump scheme, if it got big enough then the US would investigate and then eventually you'd have to deal with the resources the US has. As such any magical scheme to manipulate the stock market on the scale that would crash the economy has a "defense" of sorts in that the US government is going to investigate and then set people on your ass.

Stuff like using magical powers to listen in to key conversations and predict motions of the stock market can't be too close or else it looks like you're doing insider trading and there's a chance it'll get kicked up the chain and the IRS will investigate and bring in a magic user to double check stuff. Attempting to use future sight to predict it is difficult since not only is future sight rare, the devil's in the details and you can get tripped up (even if I knew for sure that one stock would go up in the future, I don't necessarily know when, nor do I know that I'll have purchased stock in that company).

Adding onto the complexity of all of this is that in order to mess with the stock market, you need to understand it well enough to do so effectively. That's not a "defense" per se, but it's an additional barrier for someone like Merlin, who's magically powerful enough and subtle enough to potentially pull it off, making large scale stock market manipulations solely through magic difficult.

There's technically no explicit defenses against a magic user manipulating the stock market, but the combination of the necessary scale, the US government's willingness to bring in magic users to investigate blatant manipulation, the complexity of the action and the need for knowledge of the stock market in order to effectively manipulate it makes it so that practically it's fairly well defended against.

Edit: A magic user like Zatanna could use magic to play the stock market well enough to live comfortably but she can't get anywhere near crashing the economy without the US government coming down on her like a ton of bricks (especially since it's hard to hide manipulation on that scale).