What does Kyubey deserve?

  • Plan Gundam Antagonist

    Votes: 4 18.2%
  • Plan Versailles Treaty

    Votes: 4 18.2%
  • Plan Loot and Plunder

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • Plan Regulation

    Votes: 9 40.9%
  • Plan Cabinet War

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • Plan San Francisco

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Plan Marshall

    Votes: 1 4.5%

  • Total voters
    22
  • Poll closed .

John Smith

Banned Forever
Banned
"Removing evil is not the same as creating good." - Thane Krios

Assume you have been given total power over humanity. Also assume that you know about the Incubators and their deceptive exploitative behaviour in contracting little girls to stave off the heat death of the universe. Assume that you have resolved to use all of humanity's political, economic and social capabilities to fight them.

Posit that you have met other species who have been wronged by the Incubators and who join your alliance to fight against Kyubey's entropy-reduction racket. Sailing through the sea of stars, you encounter the remains of countless fallen civilizations, who have fallen victim to Kyubey's failure to address population dynamics. Remember that in episode 10, Kyubey dismisses any responsibility over the planet after his actions lead to the creation of Kriemhild Gretchen, something that will destroy all life on Earth. He simply does not care about it. From this, we must presume he has destroyed countless civilizations due to this mismanagement.

Eventually, somehow, just somehow, in your war against the Incubators, you have fought them to their final planet. You have the capability to destroy their planet. You have a moral cause on your side, the condemnations of thousands of civilizations, fallen and alive, railing against the Incubators. You are judge, jury and executioner.

Countless civilisations humanity have met clamor for humanity to bring justice to the Incubators, whatever that means. A successful method of reducing entropy has been discovered that does not involve the pain and death the Incubators bring into the universe. A process has been discovered to further progress science, technology and society without their interference. The Incubators are now obsolete, their sole self-justification for existence gone. Yet, they intend to continue making contracts in the Universe because they view their method as more efficient than the newly discovered method of entropy reduction.

Question 1: What do you accuse them of and how do you judge them? How do you justify your viewpoint? How is your viewpoint problematic?

Options that I've thought of for discussion:
  • Plan Gundam Antagonist, where humanity carries out some pretty extreme actions and is consequently hated and feared by the rest of the universe.
  • Plan Treaty of Versailles, where the Incubators are forced to accept harsh terms to compensate for all the damage they've caused and are not allowed to make further contracts.
  • Plan San Francisco, where humanity concludes a peace treaty with the Incubators, changing them into a species that doesn't need to form contracts and where the Incubators are obligated to enter humanity's sphere of influence in return for protection from the other angry civilizations of the universe.
  • Plan Regulation, where the Incubators are allowed to make contracts, severely regulated and scrutinised to aid the hypothetical entropy-reduction program.
  • Plan Loot and Plunder, where all the civilisations of the universe are allowed to freely exact their revenge on Kyubey for one day, after that, returning to status quo ante bellum.
  • Plan Cabinet War, where a peace treaty is concluded without harsh terms for the Incubators, returning to status quo ante bellum, the war having functioned only to humiliate them.
  • Plan Marshall, where a peace treaty is concluded that actively pursues good relations with the Incubators and is similar to Plan San Francisco, with an ulterior motive, being humanity becoming more powerful than humanity's other allies combined.
 
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Treaty of Versailles is, in my opinion, the most ethical option. Holding the moral high ground over the Incubators is a huge priority of mine, and since they're incapable of emotions, you can't really cause them to suffer. Make them make amends, make sure they can't harm anymore, and then move on. Any warfare or destruction beyond that is just meaningless, boorish catharsis.
 
Plan Cabinet War

If making little girls as miserable as possible and destroying entire civilizations is what it takes to keep the universe going then that's what it takes. I can't fault the Incubators' actions in the slightest.
 
Plan Cabinet War

If making little girls as miserable as possible and destroying entire civilizations is what it takes to keep the universe going then that's what it takes. I can't fault the Incubators' actions in the slightest.

The hypothetical stipulated that a more ethical alternative to the Entropy problem has been found and the Incubator's methods are no longer necessary.
 
The hypothetical stipulated that a more ethical alternative to the Entropy problem has been found and the Incubator's methods are no longer necessary.

I think this is more along the lines of punishment for the Incubators.

I'd take Plan Regulation, where the Incubators are allowed to make contracts, severely regulated and scrutinised to aid the hypothetical entropy-reduction program.

Magical Girls become witches eventually, yeah, but the vibe I got from watching it (I finished Rebellion thirty minutes ago) is that it's possible to stave off the transformation indefinitely. Two related factors cause it: the Soul Gem becoming filled with Curses and the magical girl in question falling into depression. More likely, a magical girl who's unstable will have her soul gem filled up faster, and someone whose magical gem has been filled with curses will become depressed.

(Least that's what I got from Sayaka and Homura. Sayaka started off unstable, her mentor figure dead, refused help, and turned to a witch within days. Homura went through the equivalent of eight years without cracking because her determination and love for Madoka kept her stable and after a while she just detached herself).

So, with proper care, psych counselling, properly knowing what they're getting into, proper rationing and sharing of Grief Seeds, a magical girl could live out most of her life stable.

There's always a need for wishes that are impossible even by technology.
 
I find myself incapable of that assumption.

Assume Humanity is on par with the Culture or Xeelee or whatever's needed to fight the Incubators on an equal footing and you have popular support?

(I say Culture and above because most Sci-Fi civilizations below that don't tend to worry about Entropy and because I know next to nothing about the Incubators aside from that and Soul-Manipulation).
 
Assume Humanity is on par with the Culture or Xeelee or whatever's needed to fight the Incubators on an equal footing and you have popular support?

(I say Culture and above because most Sci-Fi civilizations below that don't tend to worry about Entropy and because I know next to nothing about the Incubators aside from that and Soul-Manipulation).

What Dakka means is that he wouldn't want to fight them, even if he could, since AFAIK he doesn't consider the Incubators to have done anything wrong.
 
What Dakka means is that he wouldn't want to fight them, even if he could, since AFAIK he doesn't consider the Incubators to have done anything wrong.
Well, they certainly have done things many things wrong in a moral sense, but honestly? An emotional race, even humanity, would probably have ended up creating a similar system if faced with the end like they did. Probably will again even, if nothing is done about entropy.

Though, they should probably also need to be punished for their terrible safety measures when it comes to their research operations. I mean, I would not trust a teenager to use my computer, let alone have a yandere one run the freaking universe. Come on man, even Cerberus wasn't that fail.
 
Well, they certainly have done things many things wrong in a moral sense, but honestly? An emotional race, even humanity, would probably have ended up creating a similar system if faced with the end like they did. Probably will again even, if nothing is done about entropy.

Though, they should probably also need to be punished for their terrible safety measures when it comes to their research operations. I mean, I would not trust a teenager to use my computer, let alone have a yandere one run the freaking universe. Come on man, even Cerberus wasn't that fail.
I'm not sure they had any idea something like that was possible, given they have a limited understanding of magic.
 
Honestly? If they have been doing this for thousands of years accross hundreds of planets, causing many to fall? Then they are a plague, a sickness, something to be excised with every measure. For how would you know if they follow any terms? or even if they would honour them?

They seem to be immortal, they could simply sit around and wait out their enemies until they suffer some sort of civilization ending event like massive civil war/invasion/supernovas. Hell, they could keep their word to never bother the worlds that found out and start contracts on other worlds with no FTL abilities at all far, FAR away from the problem space. After all, it matters not where they gather energy/stop the energy death.

Soo, Nuke 'em. if you can. If you can find their last planet and assuming the survivers don't simply hide out on other occupied worlds, if we can reach it and have to means to glass it/reduce it to rubble/supernova the sun? I'd say do it. They say they are saving the universe? I say they are killing/have killed untold numbers of civilizations that would have all died out peacefully before the end of the universe is even EVER close
 
Meh fuck the little bastards, remove their own souls, shove them into bodies capable of feeling emotions but not able to die and toss them into an empty planet full of witches to suffer forever.

FUCK THOSE MONSTERS, plus given souls apparently exist then there's the possibility of an afterlife (such as what Madokami created) so even if heat death happens who cares?
 
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Meh fuck the little bastards, remove their own souls, shove them into bodies capable of feeling emotions but not able to die and toss them into an empty planet full of witches to suffer forever.

FUCK THOSE MONSTERS, plus given souls apparently exist then there's the possibility of an afterlife (such as what Madokami created) so even if heat death happens who cares?
Souls are a cluster of nerves that allow for things like emotions. It's questionable whether Incubators have them, and their existence doesn't at all guarantee things like an afterlife.
 
Souls are a cluster of nerves that allow for things like emotions. It's questionable whether Incubators have them, and their existence doesn't at all guarantee things like an afterlife.

Oh well :(

Eh then just nuke the bastard's back to the stone age and let's take a chance on saving the universe our way if it works good if it doesn't meh at least we tried
 
Oh well :(

Eh then just nuke the bastard's back to the stone age and let's take a chance on saving the universe our way if it works good if it doesn't meh at least we tried
This is assuming they're still using the meguca process and wouldn't stop if there were more efficient means. They don't really have a reason to continue making contracts if there are more practical methods, and the only reason they did it in the first place was to literally save the universe.
 
You're making an awful lot of assumptions that Incubators are some sort of inherent evil, rather than simply an organization of evil within a large species.

Collective Punishment is a warcrime for a reason.

It's deeply hilarious that you say "everyone is clamoring for justice" and then don't offer a single outcome that involves it.
 
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Mhh, despite how damn satisfying plan loot and pillage sounds, regulation is the best option provided.
 
I don't think they deserve to be wiped out or genocided or even harshly punished. They're the reason Humanity came to the state it is. They only started using the meguca process just because they couldn't find any other method of saving the universe, not out of active malevolence towards others.

They're pretty much the Firstborn from Arthur C. Clarke's Odysseys. And yet, in the end after the Firstborn try to lifewipe Earth multiple times (and do obliterate another planet), they're not described as actively malevolent: merely concerned with a greater picture.
 
I don't think they deserve to be wiped out or genocided or even harshly punished. They're the reason Humanity came to the state it is. They only started using the meguca process just because they couldn't find any other method of saving the universe, not out of active malevolence towards others.

They're pretty much the Firstborn from Arthur C. Clarke's Odysseys. And yet, in the end after the Firstborn try to lifewipe Earth multiple times (and do obliterate another planet), they're not described as actively malevolent: merely concerned with a greater picture.

You're taking their word for anything. That would be a grave miscalculation.

We also know that they've actively allowed/encouraged the extermination/genocide of countless civilizations for their 'plan', and have otherwise spread misery across the galaxy, and immediately go back to their old ways whenever they think they have a chance. It's not worth the risk, they have to go.
 
You're making an awful lot of assumptions that Incubators are some sort of inherent evil, rather than simply an organization of evil within a large species.

Collective Punishment is a warcrime for a reason.

It's deeply hilarious that you say "everyone is clamoring for justice" and then don't offer a single outcome that involves it.

Thank you.

Most of the time people on this site are against genocide, but the second one of these types of threads show up a lot of people go all cleanse purge kill, which I find both hypocritical and disgusting. Sorry, but I have a thing against indiscriminate mass murder, even if the victims may have been responsible for ruining the lives of some cute girls.

Personally, the worst I'd do is to force the Incubators to regain emotions and banish them to pocket universe for a few million years. Effectively make them sit in a corner and think about what they'd done.
 
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Is it equally effective? If so, politely ask them to switch over. If not, I guess we hold long and complicated negotiations with final authority given to mathematicians.

Apparently the hypothetical is that humanityh as a method that's effective enough that the Incubators cannot justify their actions/existence at all.

But then they're also refusing to change their ways so the hypothetical is really weird, I dunno.
 
Apparently the hypothetical is that humanityh as a method that's effective enough that the Incubators cannot justify their actions/existence at all.

But then they're also refusing to change their ways so the hypothetical is really weird, I dunno.

...Why? If there's literally no reason not to change, and not changing results in a bunch of angry people, why would an emotionless race cling to the old ways?

 
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