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Kingdom Come: Deliverance

Magic_Pal said:
1. Budget and time are a factors. Yes deadline was set too soon. Remember this is their first game. Mistakes are bound to happend.
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If they textured and rendered the Cumans, it's not that hard to just drop an NPC or two during level design. I mean, with the way their file structure is totally insane from a patch stand point shows they weren't the brightest from a production standpoint. But this is actually trivially easy in game production to add in. Their nationalist as fuck dev supposedly had some experience in games before? It's not showing.

As for being historically accurate, no, not really. It's a pick and choose bonanza because ultimately this all comes down to core game design of what to keep and what to toss. I'll have to dig it up but I recall in the interviews leading up to the release there was a discussion of abandoning historical building precedent in order for towns to feel more "towny" because they were prioritizing player aesthetic experience.
 
The Laurent said:
Boo this man, boo him!:V

(One of those "Social Historians" you might have heard of.)
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In my thesis I literally argued against the separate idea of social and military history lol. Like one of my examples was the Romans as a militarized society because they may have lost lots of battles and be overrated in many ways but they fought constantly to a degree that has never really been matched.

So long as you're not an actual idiot quoting Plato (2008) as I've seen from some Sociologists who think they know about history you're A-ok with me.
 
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Old Spice Guy said:
In my thesis I literally argued against the separate idea of social and military history lol. Like one of my examples was the Romans as a militarized society because they may have lost lots of battles and be overrated in many ways but they fought constantly to a degree that has never really been matched.

Like so long as you're not an actual idiot quoting Plato (2008) as 8ve seen from some Sociologists who think they know about history you're A-ok with me.
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Yeah, not really? I mean, quoting Plato? Why would you do that.

Social History is, well. It's less sociologists doing history and more like.

I'm doing this super-Precis where I review four books on a specific theme. This being Early American women. One of them, the only one I've read so far, is basically classic Social History--

Revolutionary Concepts: Women, Fertility, and Family Limitation in American (1760-1820).

It's about just what it says, and one of the largest and most fascinating sources it uses is a massive amount of second-and-first-hand demographic analysises of family size and marriage that we have in this time period. Note, massive means: a lot to deal with, it's still very spotty.

Social Historians are usually very... anti-theoretical?[1] They want the hard data. So quoting Plato's p. sketchy. What was the context, incidentally?

[1] Honestly, blame McCarthy. A lot of American historiography was definitely shaped by the fears that that era created towards, say, being too open with, for instance, a Neo-Marxist interpretation of history.

And Social History has tons of nice numbers and etc to play around with.

*****

Edit: Sorry! Probably telling you things you already know, typing got away from me.
 
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The Laurent said:
Yeah, not really? I mean, quoting Plato? Why would you do that.

Social History is, well. It's less sociologists doing history and more like.

I'm doing this super-Precis where I review four books on a specific theme. This being Early American women. One of them, the only one I've read so far, is basically classic Social History--

Revolutionary Concepts: Women, Fertility, and Family Limitation in American (1760-1820).

It's about just what it says, and one of the largest and most fascinating sources it uses is a massive amount of second-and-first-hand demographic analysises of family size and marriage that we have in this time period. Note, massive means: a lot to deal with, it's still very spotty.

Social Historians are usually very... anti-theoretical?[1] They want the hard data. So quoting Plato's p. sketchy. What was the context, incidentally?

[1] Honestly, blame McCarthy. A lot of American historiography was definitely shaped by the fears that that era created towards, say, being too open with, for instance, a Neo-Marxist interpretation of history.

And Social History has tons of nice numbers and etc to play around with.

*****

Edit: Sorry! Probably telling you things you already know, typing got away from me.
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Don't sweat it lol. IIRC the context for the Plato thing came from a discussion on Athenian governance and the development of Democracy an acquaintance wrote and she didn't do it right at all. But she was a Sociologist as I noted not a social historian.
 
Magic_Pal said:
What I don't like about this whole situation is that just because game is not diverse enough and have no token characters people are so willing to throw shit at it.
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You're lying about a lot of things, and people have pointed out a lot of those lies, but I would like to zoom in on this particular lie.

People are not shitting on it just because there are no minorities in it, although for a game supposedly about historical accuracy this is an blatant error. People are shitting on it because the lead developer is an outspoken supporter of Nazis and rapists. People are shitting on it because it's a buggy piece of shit. People are shitting on it because its main storyline is utterly rote trash. People are shitting on it for a variety of crippling design decisions like the combat and save system.

People, in short, are shitting on it because it is a burning trash heap made by right wing morons, and its defenders are, themselves, right wing morons who insist that historical errors are actually accuracy, and when it is shown that no, they're errors, said right wing morons immediately insist that this game supposedly about accuracy was instead focused on the gameplay (the gameplay that is terrible).

E: also these right wing morons (tautology), when cornered, say things like "even if they portrayed minorities well, they'd just ask that WOMEN be treated well too!!!!!"
 
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Old Spice Guy said:
In all fairness to the dev team they did a lot right as I noted earlier (the map is so gorgeous as is the architecture etc).

However this only makes the myriad...questionable decisions all the more glaring.

This game is pretentious. Never thought I'd say that but fricking Vavra. So close to greatness.

Bugs can be patched. An asshole lead dev? Not so much.
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That's probably the reason he is taking as much heat as is. Dude is not shy about sharing his political beliefs. So instead of us maybe thinking he just didn't know a damned thing about Cumans and assuming Czech-people land of 1403 resembled Czech-people land of 2018 demographically, it instead looks like he was trying to craft an idealized, escapist fantasyland for alt-righters.

But the worst sin of all is that this shit is fucking buggy. A game being a hot, buggy mess was acceptable back in the nineties golden era of gaming, but not today.
 
all fictions said:
ok.jpg

Are you saying paintings of the Magi, part of one of the significant events in the New Testament, the one event celebrated each year by Christians everywhere, would be rare? That it is a drop in the ocean? Whut?

And even Wikipedia notes that Parzival "was the most popular vernacular verse narrative in medieval Germany", so what are you talking about.

It's not a drop in the ocean, it's there in plain sight.
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It is a drop in the ocean. Popular drop is still a drop.

Rodyle said:
You're lying about a lot of things, and people have pointed out a lot of those lies, but I would like to zoom in on this particular lie.

People are not shitting on it just because there are no minorities in it, although for a game supposedly about historical accuracy this is an blatant error. People are shitting on it because the lead developer is an outspoken supporter of Nazis and rapists. People are shitting on it because it's a buggy piece of shit. People are shitting on it because its main storyline is utterly rote trash. People are shitting on it for a variety of crippling design decisions like the combat and save system.

People, in short, are shitting on it because it is a burning trash heap made by right wing morons, and its defenders are, themselves, right wing morons who insist that historical errors are actually accuracy, and when it is shown that no, they're errors, said right wing norons immediately insist that this game sipposuppo about accuracy was instead focused on the gameplay (the gameplay that is terrible).

E: also these right wing morons (tautology), when cornered, say things like "even if they portrayed minorities well, they'd just ask that WOMEN be treated well too!!!!!"
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Milions of sold copies say otherwise. Yes it is buggy to the point that you want to throw your computer out. Yet it is still fun to play. People are not shitting about minorities yet this is the point that they most yell about. Story line to many people is good or good enough. This depends on invidual people. Combat is great. It is just git gud or die tryin. Out of all mechanics safe system and lockpicking are trash.

Apocal said:
That's probably the reason he is taking as much heat as is. Dude is not shy about sharing his political beliefs. So instead of us maybe thinking he just didn't know a damned thing about Cumans and assuming Czech-people land of 1403 resembled Czech-people land of 2018 demographically, it instead looks like he was trying to craft an idealized, escapist fantasyland for alt-righters.

But the worst sin of all is that this shit is fucking buggy. A game being a hot, buggy mess was acceptable back in the nineties golden era of gaming, but not today.
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The only thing I would argue is that buggy games are more common now than in old days. AC Unity, ME Andromeda were big AAA games yet they were buggy to the point that one of them create new type of comedy.
 
Magic_Pal said:
Milions of sold copies say otherwise.
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I don't understand this logic at all. It sold well therefor it isn't problematic and broken on pretty much every level? I mean given that a lot of this game seems to have been sold on lies or near lies and most of the people shitting on the game played it at least a bit the thing selling well doesn't really mean anything.
 
Magic_Pal said:
The only thing I would argue is that buggy games are more common now than in old days. AC Unity, ME Andromeda were big AAA games yet they were buggy to the point that one of them create new type of comedy.
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Then you weren't playing games in the old days (the nineties). This isn't common. This isn't normal. This is buggy. There is no reason not to jump down their shit about this sort of thing.

Magic_Pal said:
The facts are: They were close to 0 poc in bohemia at that time. It is insane to call someone nazi for saying that. It is just stupid to rate games by looking at cast diversity.
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Bro, KCD also erased a lot of the Germans right the fuck out of their "historically accurate" time, place and story.
 
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VolantRedX said:
I don't understand this logic at all. It sold well therefor it isn't problematic and broken on pretty much every level? I mean given that a lot of this game seems to have been sold on lies or near lies and most of the people shitting on the game played it at least a bit the thing selling well doesn't really mean anything.
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I'm not saying that there are no bugs. I'm saying that there are not that big of an issue. If this game was that bugged as people claim then we would see that in sales.

Ford Prefect said:
The story of the birth of Jesus Christ is a drop in the ocean for medieval Europe?
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Look. You have say 1000 stories. One of them is known by everybody. It is still one story.
And I'm not saying that nobody knows that poc existed. I'm saying that they were a rare sight.

Apocal said:
Then you weren't playing games in the old days (the nineties). This isn't common. This isn't normal. This is buggy. There is no reason not to jump down their shit about this sort of thing.



Bro, KCD also erased a lot of the Germans right the fuck out of their "historically accurate" time, place and story.
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I played many games, but bugs in my case were more prominent in todays games. And I'm not saying that the game isn't buggy. I'm saying that bugged games are not a rarity today.
 
Magic_Pal said:
I'm not saying that there are no bugs. I'm saying that there are not that big of an issue. If this game was that bugged as people claim then we would see that in sales.
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OK first off the bugs are a massive problem. I ran into three game breaking bugs in the first few hours and that's a real small sample size. Secondly when have bugs ever impacted sales? Buggy games sell all the time because there isn't a great way to warn people about them until after people bought the game. Especially given the fact that people preorder games more than anything. This game was sold on lies and people are justifiably pissed that the game they bought is both very broken and kinda racist. Saying "well it sold well so shut up" is a logical fallacy.
 
Magic_Pal said:
Look. You have say 1000 stories. One of them is known by everybody. It is still one story.
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And not all stories are equal. Like holy crap, we are literally talking about the birth of Christ here. No story could have been better known at the time and place in which the game happens. You clearly know numbers aren't everything.

More than that, you've never addressed my points about the lack of Jews and how there should have been even one or two people of different ethnicities present and visible in small numbers. That the game is small is no excuse because they were present in a big way.

That and the completely wrong portrayal of the Cumans. The Cuman-Kipchaks actually had a pretty good rep in general. Someone like Sir Radzig for example would likely have had a generally positive opinion about them (probably would have hated Gascons and the French though...). To bang on about Christian Cameron again there is a Kipchak in his works and he is portrayed very well. They had a good reputation amongst the nobility and educated of Christendom; it's remarked that the Monghul (spelling is correct for the time) are honourable men who do not lie.

But we got Orcs. So yeah. The game deserves to be dumped on because it came so close and may have poisoned the well for any actually accurate games we get later (hopefully).
 
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Magic_Pal said:
Milions of sold copies say
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-that it sold millions of copies. Nothing more, nothing less (also it didn't sell millions, it sold ONE million). It says nothing about the quality, accuracy, or design.

I did not say people aren't complaining about the portrayal of minorities, that would be an odd thing for me to do since /I/ am doing that. I was correcting your lie about that being the only complaint. It is the PRIMARY complaint because it's the most heinous part, it's the part that most directly undermines the "realism" pitch, and because it's the part the Nazi developer shakes his ass on stage about.

Your lying isn't getting you anywhere here. The only people "sold" by this paper thin trash are those already in camp bigot.
 
Magic_Pal said:
Milions of sold copies say otherwise.
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Certainly over a million copies were sold but about that. Less then 50% player retention over the month it has been purchased is fairly middling and it has more churn then games that would be within its category (Skyrim, etc.). Note that it only gained 200k more users on steam in the following month since Warhorse announced that they surpassed a million too.

Successful for a smaller studio, but this isn't wearing big boy pants.
 
You know I might have a go at rewriting this myself. No promises, but I reckon I could do it pretty well. Stay tuned folks...
 
What would have been kind of cool would be it beginning as the game we got, with now Jews, and Cumans as Orks . . . but as you progress in the game and boost your stats and skills, you come to be able to speak the Cuman language, and understand other minorities, and when you go back you find that it wasn't ever the nationalist fantasy, but your character just couldn't understand it.
 
comradepitrovsky said:
What would have been kind of cool would be it beginning as the game we got, with now Jews, and Cumans as Orks . . . but as you progress in the game and boost your stats and skills, you come to be able to speak the Cuman language, and understand other minorities, and when you go back you find that it wasn't ever the nationalist fantasy, but your character just couldn't understand it.
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Yeah if this game was just the prologue like holy shit you know what? It would have been fan-fuckingtastic.
 
Flibspeak said:
Certainly over a million copies were sold but about that. Less then 50% player retention over the month it has been purchased is fairly middling and it has more churn then games that would be within its category (Skyrim, etc.). Note that it only gained 200k more users on steam in the following month since Warhorse announced that they surpassed a million too.

Successful for a smaller studio, but this isn't wearing big boy pants.
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I know. For small studio this is a success. But for a big boys it would be just a small side project.

And please don't call people nazi ect just because they have other opinions. In my opinion this game is good. Not exellent or a masterpiece but a good game. And about all minority issues. This game is in 4x4km area. Small space like that could not include all types of people. For first try, this is a good result.
 
Magic_Pal said:
I know. For small studio this is a success. But for a big boys it would be just a small side project.

And please don't call people nazi ect just because they have other opinions. In my opinion this game is good. Not exellent or a masterpiece but a good game. And about all minority issues. This game is in 4x4km area. Small space like that could not include all types of people. For first try, this is a good result.
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You're not quite getting it. Okay, a question. How many in-game NPCs were there? I mean, roughly?
 
Magic_Pal said:
No idea.
Really.
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Well, the Wiki lists 229, I'm not sure if there are any "generic townsfolk" or the like, but let's say 200? That's very rough.

About ten of them should be Jewish, roughly. It could be a few less, it could be a few more, being sticklers doesn't help anyone. But not zero. All you have to do is include them as part of, you know, your realistic medieval demographics. That doesn't require you to add 400 new people to mix things up or something, it just requires you to use the sample you have correctly, rather than with the intention of white-washing the country as part of a modern bias/lack of historical understanding.
 
The Laurent said:
Well, the Wiki lists 229, I'm not sure if there are any "generic townsfolk" or the like, but let's say 200? That's very rough.

About ten of them should be Jewish, roughly. It could be a few less, it could be a few more, being sticklers doesn't help anyone. But not zero. All you have to do is include them as part of, you know, your realistic medieval demographics. That doesn't require you to add 400 new people to mix things up or something, it just requires you to use the sample you have correctly, rather than with the intention of white-washing the country as part of a modern bias/lack of historical understanding.
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I personally don't feel the need to do that. But in my opinion if you have let's say 100 people A 700 people B and 200 people C if you mix them together you have 1000 people. 10% A, 70% B and 20% C. But if you would pick random 100 from that the % would not be the same. You could pick 100 people B or 75 C and 15 A. In my opinion if they were more minority's it would be great but the lack of them is not making game worst. This is just my opinion.
 
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