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It's not wrong to make Friends in the Dungeon (Danmachi / Sanctioned [Worm])

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Axel said:
Additionally, the very way they make the cycle prevent host-species to achieve energy generation.
A person with the knowledge and ingenuity to make an infinite generator or a good weapon would choose the weapon if Conflict-seeking or conflict-targeted.
Specially in a world that is diing out, in normal cycle world they would become targets for other survivors and hostile host, possibly gain the attention of Endbringers, they are all reasons to not make such big waves
not to talk about all the other restrictions...
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I would think, with the precedent from human history in mind, the person wouldn't choose at all but build the infinite generator to power the good weapon. Presto, goal of the cycle reached.
 
Vebyast said:
it's that she was right all along about being empathetic and caring about her hosts and everything
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It is also the part in which they told her some things are too dangerous despite her not agreeing with them, which means that she could have solved that already had the incompetents not gotten in her way.
 
You are not thinking in the ideal cycle-host rules;
Society is divided is small settlements, where everyone seeks power to defend himself, consequently attacking others.
Money does not work anymore, trade does.
Not many capes are together, due to the mines that are trigger-events and shard-based personality alterations.
If a group of people starts prospering, people will notice and will flock to seek stability.
With them "Villains" will come, to gain monopoly of the source.
In the event it does not happen, and society starts being rebuilding itself, Endbringer will appear.
Tinker are already a commodity, as they can transform trash in sci-fi tech; creating, apparent or not, energy from nothing means painting an extremely big target in ones back
Also, the way that people will think will be more short term, something that is the opposite of what is needed to search unlimited energy, as i said before;

Shot, the place i ransacked yesterday is from a rival gang, but with this new gadgets i can build something....mmmh if i create this generator, converting all my materials, taking all their tinkertech i might create a enough energy to last me a decade......wait, i pissed of a gang, i better make some energy gun to eradicate them tonight.

Not only that, but Host-species do not think of tinker-tech as a way to archieve infinite energy, the whole point of constant mantainance makes it only a dream.
 
Axel said:
You are not thinking in the ideal cycle-host rules;
Society is divided is small settlements, where everyone seeks power to defend himself, consequently attacking others.
Money does not work anymore, trade does.
Not many capes are together, due to the mines that are trigger-events and shard-based personality alterations.
If a group of people starts prospering, people will notice and will flock to seek stability.
With them "Villains" will come, to gain monopoly of the source.
In the event it does not happen, and society starts being rebuilding itself, Endbringer will appear.
Tinker are already a commodity, as they can transform trash in sci-fi tech; creating, apparent or not, energy from nothing means painting an extremely big target in ones back
Also, the way that people will think will be more short term, something that is the opposite of what is needed to search unlimited energy, as i said before;

Shot, the place i ransacked yesterday is from a rival gang, but with this new gadgets i can build something....mmmh if i create this generator, converting all my materials, taking all their tinkertech i might create a enough energy to last me a decade......wait, i pissed of a gang, i better make some energy gun to eradicate them tonight.

Not only that, but Host-species do not think of tinker-tech as a way to archieve infinite energy, the whole point of constant mantainance makes it only a dream.
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I think you have a misunderstanding of what the ideal cycle looks like. Re-read the Fortuna interlude, the part where Eden looks into her perfect future: nations, permanently in tension, but next to no true war. Conflict, but no change of the status quo. That's the ideal. Lots of potential hosts that live long enough to exhaust every bit of creativity they can put into their powers with enough infrastructure to support those that need a bit of build-up; lots of tension for triggers directed at each other. Sure, in most of the cycles they don't reach this, but that's why it's the ideal.

Edit: Also, I still don't understand why you make it this false choice: infinite energy or weapon. Take the guy in your example. He wouldn't say: "Oh, I'll build some 08/15 weapon instead of the power generator." He would say: "I'll build the infinite power generator as a battery for my weapon, and then I'll destroy all the rival gangs! Muahaha!"
 
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Perfect is the enemy of good enough. Except in the reverse.

The entities have set up a scenario where good enough will beat perfect ninety nine point nine nine nine repeating percent of the time.
 
Tzardok said:
I think you have a misunderstanding of what the ideal cycle looks like. Re-read the Fortuna interlude, the part where Eden looks into her perfect future: nations, permanently in tension, but next to no true war. Conflict, but no change of the status quo. That's the ideal. Lots of potential hosts that live long enough to exhaust every bit of creativity they can put into their powers with enough infrastructure to support those that need a bit of build-up; lots of tension for triggers directed at each other. Sure, in most of the cycles they don't reach this, but that's why it's the ideal.

Edit: Also, I still don't understand why you make it this false choice: infinite energy or weapon. Take the guy in your example. He wouldn't say: "Oh, I'll build some 08/15 weapon instead of the power generator." He would say: "I'll build the infinite power generator as a battery for my weapon, and then I'll destroy all the rival gangs! Muahaha!"
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You remember that ...Miss Militia? said "War, war is our only option?" in that alternate, right?
Also you consider a global scale of status quo, I talk in a smaller one.
Capes die, and the creativity is used to develop offensive ways to use their power, like Skitter did.
Tinker too are creative, but they rarely live long enough to create something good.

As for what you said of the example, you do not consider that he used everything to create the generator, that he will need to fix every now and then, and slowly upgrade it until it effectively create more energy that it uses.
As such, he can't create the weapon he need to repel the gang.
Probably he will die, he might explode the generator in revenge to kill his killers, or become a slave of the gang.
Considering that it is a Bad Idea to simply trap someone that can build a bomb from a lamp, probably the first two
 
Axel said:
You remember that ...Miss Militia? said "War, war is our only option?" in that alternate, right?
Also you consider a global scale of status quo, I talk in a smaller one.
Capes die, and the creativity is used to develop offensive ways to use their power, like Skitter did.
Tinker too are creative, but they rarely live long enough to create something good.

As for what you said of the example, you do not consider that he used everything to create the generator, that he will need to fix every now and then, and slowly upgrade it until it effectively create more energy that it uses.
As such, he can't create the weapon he need to repel the gang.
Probably he will die, he might explode the generator in revenge to kill his killers, or become a slave of the gang.
Considering that it is a Bad Idea to simply trap someone that can build a bomb from a lamp, probably the first two
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And the shard has learned from him. The next host (maybe even in the next cycle will use what was learned that way. If that host ever had the chance to reach infinite energy, than sooner of later that shard will reach it. If not, then the whole thought experiment was useless from the start. Because the global status quo is the only thing worth talking about. The shards do not care for individual hosts. The care for the species. Because really... the host isn't that important. Someone else with the same shard could have developed the same tricks or tactics. Or do you think that Skitter is unique, that no one else in all the planets would ever come up with the same ideas?
 
Tzardok said:
And the shard has learned from him. The next host (maybe even in the next cycle will use what was learned that way. If that host ever had the chance to reach infinite energy, than sooner of later that shard will reach it. If not, then the whole thought experiment was useless from the start. Because the global status quo is the only thing worth talking about. The shards do not care for individual hosts. The care for the species. Because really... the host isn't that important. Someone else with the same shard could have developed the same tricks or tactics. Or do you think that Skitter is unique, that no one else in all the planets would ever come up with the same ideas?
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What i am saying is that a cape, a tinker, in such a territory that is like No Man's Land Gotham or gang-war Brockton bay, will not focus on building a Arc Reactor stealing tech as it would reveal his existence to enemies, specially with Thinkers around.
He will build weapons, armor, repair them and upgrade them, maybe put one or two pieces in storage to make something better later on, but what you forgot, is that tinker have specialities.
A tinker would have first to trigger with a good tech tree to be even able to create a simple generator, then he would have to fight, repair and upgrade his gear, maybe exchange tech, think long term and actually have a reason to create such a generator, and only then starting creating/maintain/upgrade it.
Hell, think of dragon, she was online for more than seven years, and yet did nothing of sort.
Armsmaster is the same, not only, we are talking about a broken-cycle where government tinker could work together and talk to each other;
something that would have been impossible in a Ideal cycle, as such interaction would have to be done only with physically near tinkers, as long travels are not sure in that conditions, with experienced tinkers that collected a lot of data to be rewarded by their shards, thus with broad experience and specialization, without problems to stay/work together without killing/sabotaging each other, willing to try doing something about the idea of such a generator, with enough salvage/tech/minerals/etc to create it, in a place calm enough to work.
Not only that, entities in a Ideal cycle don't want Hosts to be able to build something that threaten them, as such, a bomb to destroy their enemies using that generator? flagged as an allert, hell, it enough exotic even a gun powered that way!
And the answer to that alert are endbringers, not when the weapon is completed, but as soon as possible -> hence, the idea of the Cycle might work extremely long term, but they are unknowly sabotaging it trying to make it more efficient
 
Axel said:
What i am saying is that a cape, a tinker, in such a territory that is like No Man's Land Gotham or gang-war Brockton bay, will not focus on building a Arc Reactor stealing tech as it would reveal his existence to enemies, specially with Thinkers around.
He will build weapons, armor, repair them and upgrade them, maybe put one or two pieces in storage to make something better later on, but what you forgot, is that tinker have specialities.
A tinker would have first to trigger with a good tech tree to be even able to create a simple generator, then he would have to fight, repair and upgrade his gear, maybe exchange tech, think long term and actually have a reason to create such a generator, and only then starting creating/maintain/upgrade it.
Hell, think of dragon, she was online for more than seven years, and yet did nothing of sort.
Armsmaster is the same, not only, we are talking about a broken-cycle where government tinker could work together and talk to each other;
something that would have been impossible in a Ideal cycle, as such interaction would have to be done only with physically near tinkers, as long travels are not sure in that conditions, with experienced tinkers that collected a lot of data to be rewarded by their shards, thus with broad experience and specialization, without problems to stay/work together without killing/sabotaging each other, willing to try doing something about the idea of such a generator, with enough salvage/tech/minerals/etc to create it, in a place calm enough to work.
Not only that, entities in a Ideal cycle don't want Hosts to be able to build something that threaten them, as such, a bomb to destroy their enemies using that generator? flagged as an allert, hell, it enough exotic even a gun powered that way!
And the answer to that alert are endbringers, not when the weapon is completed, but as soon as possible -> hence, the idea of the Cycle might work extremely long term, but they are unknowly sabotaging it trying to make it more efficient
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You put too much stock into the build thing. A unlimited energy generator has to work by principles and laws. If there is a shard that could build such a thing, even if the host never manages that, the entities already won. In that case they already know the principles. So they make a shard that uses those principles without technology, and bam! the entities have their unlimited energy. The hosts aren't supposed the get the fruits of the cycle.
But really, I don't think we'll ever manage to convince the other to our position. So lets stop the derail.
 
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Jonen C said:
Perfect is the enemy of good enough. Except in the reverse.

The entities have set up a scenario where good enough will beat perfect ninety nine point nine nine nine repeating percent of the time.
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The irony in this is very nice especially given QA commented on this exact same thing on what the first few chapters? I believe it was when Hestia commented on the panther shape of QA's friends and her saying something about not needing the whole "good enough" stuff inherent in regular evolution.

only for it to turn out the entire cycle thing is basically just that turned up to eleven. Would be great if Dreamer brought that little thing up at some point or QA herself remembering she said that.
 
Oh, if you want maximum irony, the set up means the shards can get complacent - nothing is allowed to risk the cycle, so the shards can sit back and file down the details on their hobby projects.

It's their hosts, their idea generators, that are constantly pushed towards something that works now rather than refining theory.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Do you want Broadcasts? Because the cycle is how you get Broadcasts!
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Oh, you'd get broadcasts without the cycle. Possibly even more of them. They'd be a lot shorter lived though.

The cycle means they aren't allowed to serve a useful purpose in distracting predators while more intelligent shards sneak to safety.
 
Jonen C said:
Oh, you'd get broadcasts without the cycle. Possibly even more of them. They'd be a lot shorter lived though.

The cycle means they aren't allowed to serve a useful purpose in distracting predators while more intelligent shards sneak to safety.
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Now I am really curious how you imagine predators that could hunt entities... or continent sized shards sneaking, for that matter.
 
Alivaril said:
She might have more trouble with human communications than their shard counterparts, but humans didn't care. Or at least, they didn't mock her for it. They acknowledged and noticed that there was a problem, yet they acted to correct it instead of mocking her. It wasn't fair that her siblings would impose a reputation for destructive obliviousness and blunt solutions when she was trying to help!
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I dunno if anyone has mentioned something similar in the past, but this seems like QA has the shard version of high functioning autism, and her shard siblings are all kinds of dicks enough (or sociopathic crysteline super-computers) that instead of explaining, they apply more sarcasm as if it will help.

Whereas the humans are all "oh, you don't understand? Lemme explain!"

I'm sad now.
 
Puck McSnuggins said:
I dunno if anyone has mentioned something similar in the past, but this seems like QA has the shard version of high functioning autism, and her shard siblings are all kinds of dicks enough (or sociopathic crysteline super-computers) that instead of explaining, they apply more sarcasm as if it will help.

Whereas the humans are all "oh, you don't understand? Lemme explain!"

I'm sad now.
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To me it sounds more like QA is Granny from before WW2 and sarcasm is the internet. Granny doesn't understand this newfangled stuff and her grandchildren think it's funny to send her tutorials per e-mail.
 
Puck McSnuggins said:
I dunno if anyone has mentioned something similar in the past, but this seems like QA has the shard version of high functioning autism, and her shard siblings are all kinds of dicks enough (or sociopathic crysteline super-computers) that instead of explaining, they apply more sarcasm as if it will help.

Whereas the humans are all "oh, you don't understand? Lemme explain!"

I'm sad now.
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The opposite actually, she's so smart that daddy goldie needs to cripple her through every cycle. It doesn't help that the sibs can get to some stupid shit that probably annoys the crap out her. Basically she's the smart child in a group of average or below average classmates, it doesn't help that they have to follow certain guidelines or get lynched making it more then likely that she's learned to shut up and bear it.
 
Chuck12 said:
The opposite actually, she's so smart that daddy goldie needs to cripple her through every cycle. It doesn't help that the sibs can get to some stupid shit that probably annoys the crap out her. Basically she's the smart child in a group of average or below-average classmates
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QA compared to the vast majority of her fellow Shards is more like Walter O'Brian from the TV show Scorpion in a room filled with Darwin Award Nominees on a perpetual high.
In this metaphor, : Queen Shaper: is Sylvester in that they are nearly a match for QA's intellect, but they understand and enjoy the challenges of their less gifted fellows.
At least it's not : Efficiency: , who is nearly as intelligent but lacks the understanding of empathy, much like their current host Armsmaster.
 
It was rather amusing that QA's reaction to this little revelation was "I bet I could make more dungeons", which would horrify the locals. The shards on the other hand would rather enjoy a good dungeon, especially all those Innovator hosts playing with new power sources.

If QA and Dreamer just accomplished the entities' goal, or at least made a quantum leap forward does that mean it could be said that the Thinker accomplished her goals? It seems like a very PtV solution where it gets you what you want, but completely disregards the after effects and complications induced along the way. PtV is running around with Contessa, so it the check condition was PtV surviving given the assumption it wouldn't be used by hosts that cycle Eden got exactly what she would have asked for.
 
wakshazi said:
If QA and Dreamer just accomplished the entities' goal, or at least made a quantum leap forward does that mean it could be said that the Thinker accomplished her goals? It seems like a very PtV solution where it gets you what you want, but completely disregards the after effects and complications induced along the way. PtV is running around with Contessa, so it the check condition was PtV surviving given the assumption it wouldn't be used by hosts that cycle Eden got exactly what she would have asked for.
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While it is interesting thought, it didn't really what happen, Eden is an entity and as such is supersupersupercomputer, she could follow the threads of PtV to see how the end result is achieved and than modify the future until she get's a path that doesn't kill her (before starting a cycle the entities use PtV to remove all paths of them losing and than choosing which winning path they will take), but she would see the end result and will discover that she just needed to study the magic, QA said that it was easy and that she would have easily achieved it had she had access to magic.
 
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