Is warhammer 40K actually any good at warfare the thread

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this was thread drift in Unpopular Opinions but I think it fits in here pretty well. The discussion is basically as the thread title suggests. Is warhammer 40K, which I am told by youtube videos is one of the most overpowered settings around actually any good at warfare?

Could it beat modernity?

Could it beat WW2?

are Tau actually bad at fighting because of their wierd lack of indirect fire weapons other than seeker missiles?

Discuss.
 
If you restrict it that much people are just going to be like "but space marines are better", which while true, elides a bit the question.
 
Everyone but Chaos and the Imperium are good at war (though what counts as good at war is heavily impacted by the physical abilities and goals of those factions).
 
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As the question is posed as 'any good' at warfare then the answer is basically yes. As a miniatures wargame WH40k has a variety of armies that each have pretty extensive org charts including specialist units, support weapons, artillery, air power, etc. It doesn't have many of the limitations imposed on television science fiction and its theme is pitched battles. In that respect it's sort of like Star Wars and its toyetic collection of vehicles and five hundred million soldier action figure variants.

If the question was phrased 'is Warhammer 40k good at warfare' then the answer would be mostly no. The individual warfighting ability of certain units is high, like there's plenty of skilled and tenacious soldiers with solid gear or enhanced abilities. Those Space Marines with autocannons and jet packs are pretty impressive, for example. There's plenty of that, and there's little in the setting I would describe as weak (though some of the vehicle design leaves a lot to be desired lol).

What armies in WH40k lack is a real science of war and they have a focus on what are basically completely absurd methods, because the theme is set out in the tagline: in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. It's all grinding attrition and hopeless sieges and trenches and charging into minefields with fixed bayonets. There are some slick elements even in the most ossified parts of the setting but even the elite regiments of the Imperial Guard will fight shoulder to shoulder in static firing lines while there are Space Marines that will let themselves bogged down in fixed positions, on purpose.

The aliens are somewhat harder to judge because their approach is so much weirder, but to take the Craftworld Eldar, second only to the Necrons technologically and arguably second to none in terms elite training (and the undisputed strongest army on the table top), largely squander their distinct advantages on moving to close combat. There are historical, cultural and even psychological reasons for the Eldar approach to warfare but there's no denying that if they did almost literally anything else with their incredible mobility and highly advanced weapons they would be much more fearsome lol
 
There are few settings based on visual media that portray how modern-ish militaries fight well. The same goes for stuff that is a game first and a setting somewhere further down the list.
 
Very little really captures the sheer complexity of modern operations outside of like, C:MANO, and just looking at the UI for that gives me a nosebleed. However some media does a decent job of capturing the sense of up to standard military capability whether that's due to a specific focus such as small unit actions or even just the aesthetic, usually in terms of movement. WH40k has such a defined aesthetic that really clashes with some of that, to the point that making an army that kind of did AirLand Battle was really controversial lol

To be honest the area I'm most interested in in this respect is the Votann, who are potentially a kind of blank slate and not technologically limited in the way that the other human factions are. Unfortunately so far, their clean aesthetic aside, GW hasn't really been pushing the envelop like they did with the Tau back in 3rd.

e: I appreciate that it might have been somewhat foolish of me to think that GW might do something interesting in terms of operational tempo with a spacegoing take on their dwarfs :V
 
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Very little really captures the sheer complexity of modern operations outside of like, C:MANO, and just looking at the UI for that gives me a nosebleed. However some media does a decent job of capturing the sense of up to standard military capability whether that's due to a specific focus such as small unit actions or even just the aesthetic, usually in terms of movement. WH40k has such a defined aesthetic that really clashes with some of that, to the point that making an army that kind of did AirLand Battle was really controversial lol

To be honest the area I'm most interested in in this respect is the Votann, who are potentially a kind of blank slate and not technologically limited in the way that the other human factions are. Unfortunately so far, their clean aesthetic aside, GW hasn't really been pushing the envelop like they did with the Tau back in 3rd.
GW hasn't really done anything with the Votann, and it's really annoying, TBH. You'd think that there'd be at least one Black Library book accompanying their release, if only to leech off the popularity of the squats returning as an almost entirely new faction, but nope. Frankly, we'll probably have to wait for their second codex release to get anything else on their society and military.
 
Copying over my answer from the thread:
Well fundamentally that's sort of the rub, because there's multiple readings of the source materials, all of which are ultimately equally valid. In many depictions, absolutely WH40K armies are bad at performing expeditionary warfare on a planetary scale. In a smaller number of other depictions they're implied not to be, and some are unclear or arguable. There's simply no consistency, and it's a setting written by people who on the whole are not even armchair military experts.

If you want to interpret Warhammer 40,000 as the Imperium and friends just fundamentally being very bad at war, there is definitely ample evidence to support this reading. If you want, you can find a lot of stuff which seems incompetent to a degree where even the Iraqi army would look like gods next to the best formations of the Imperial Guard. Equally, if you want to say, "this is a civilisation which has been fighting wars for almost as long as human history since the invention of agriculture, and where martial exploits are the single most important achievement for their elite class, their way of fighting war should at least make sense within their social context", then there's sources you can emphasise and readings you can take which do that. Personally I find this fun because it makes the Imperium feel more real and idiosyncratic and fucked up, a sort of mirror to the darkest times in our own history, but... it's not more valid because of that.

To be clear, I think even in a fairly generous view of the Imperium, it would be hard to argue without really squinting at the texts that the average Imperial Guard deployment is much better at war than, as an incredibly rough comparison, Russian forces in Ukraine today. Huge fuckups at the outset of campaigns due to a lack of clear orders and poor planning, different service branches at loggerheads, unsupported infantry assaults in conditions reminiscent of the Western Front, an air force which struggles to do more than basic CAS and gravity bombing... but somewhat ameliorated by a massive advantage in supporting fires which are used as the solution to most problems, and an ability to replace losses. There are probably specific regiments or campaigns which rise somewhat above that standard, and ones that fall far below. Many PDF forces have combat showings which do seem very reminiscent of the Iraqi army circa '91.

But ultimately it's what reading you want to take out of this massively internally contradictory and sprawling set of source materials. No one actually cares about how operationally incompetent 40K armies are, outside of discussions online like this, and it's clearly not a priority for GW because why would they care? Their demographic is a million miles away from people who play Command: Modern Operations for fun, or even relatively soft wargames.

There is no reading of the setting of Warhammer 40,000 which is so ironclad that it is not going to be contradicted by a single line from Codex somewhere, or a paragraph from a Black Library novel, or a whole page from one of the rulebooks. The Imperium are bad at war, except when they (sort of) aren't, the Tau are good at war, except when they (sort of) aren't, massive orbital insertions and usage of orbital bombardment as standard tactic are not a thing, except when they are clearly described, and so on. So we necessarily have to make choices about what to ignore and what not to ignore, based on what is "reasonable". But this necessarily implies a value judgement on our part.

Even quite common aspects of the fiction can vary a lot in meaning depending on how we interpret them. The Imperial Guard's usage of bayonet charges, for example, could imply a paradigm of warfare somewhere in the 19th century (or worse), or a last-ditch tactic used essentially to avoid being captured alive for cultural reasons, similar to many banzai charges by Japanese forces in WW2. Or even (being very generous) an infantry tactic to infiltrate and encircle foes who will broadly win a straight firefight like the Tau, similar to Chinese tactics in Korea. None of these is good in terms of what it says about the Guard's overall limitations, but each has meaningfully different implications for how (in)effectively we expect the Guard to fight.

So I think before we ask this question, we have to sort of interrogate what view of the Warhammer 40,000 setting we want to take first, and why we find that reading valuable or interesting first. I realise this is kind of a non-answer to your question, and I apologise.

But I think it's sort of necessary, because we have the situation you see in a lot of Versus debates, where the argument basically flips between two levels simultaneously; there's the diegetic layer focussing on how the fictional property interacts with the opposing side, and the non-diegetic layer where people usually have diametrically opposite reads of the fiction, usually solely based on how this makes them good at fighting or not:
"I think that the Care Bears could defeat NATO forces in the Fulda Gap if they were swapped in for WARPAC forces."
"No, I think they'd totally get owned."
"But a Care Bear Stare is described as having a yield of somewhere between 5-100 kT, and as seen in Care Bears II: Revengeance, Cheer Bear is able to deliver hugs to all the children of Grumpy Gulch in under 2 seconds despite being behind a ridge, implying an ability to non-visually identify and track hundreds of targets, whilst in Care Bears IV: The Reckoning we see Funshine Bear, one of the weakest of the bears, managing to hit a target in low orbit across the horizon-"
"That stuff is all stupid and doesn't make sense. In an of the episodes of the cartoon, the Care Bears get beaten by a small cat, and in the 1990s text adventure game, the Care Bear Stare can't get through a locked wooden door."
"Sour Puss had been empowered directly by the dark sorcerer Mordred, and that door was made of-"

...and so on.

Once you've accepted that a value judgement is involved somewhere, I think you have to interrogate why a given internal model of the fiction is interesting in the first place. Or to centre it directly in terms of what is relevant or not for a discussion of practical fighting capabilities; I think the only way this conversation does not get fundamentally repetitive by the second or third reply is to talk much more explicitly about the exact models we have of the fiction, and why we have them, etc..
 
It certainly doesn't help that WH40k is at this point an old franchise with a lot of material written at various times and by various writers, without that much in the way of central editorial control. It's gotten more managed with time (which has arguably caused other, different issues lol) and relative to WHFB it was typically more financially successful which had its own impacts on how the main source material, the codexes, have been written. Everyone wants their army to be the best and for their investment in the franchise to be rewarded, so each codex has a real slant.
 
Yeah, it's especially funny when sometimes the depiction in a new Codex which is clearly meant to make a particular faction sound really hardcore instead makes them seem incompetent instead, which also happens a lot.

Or what happened with the Custodes, where they went from a small corps of elite bodyguards in the background to apparently being thousand of them with their own tanks and vehicles. This makes them appear like gold-plated regime protection forces and the Imperium like a third world dictatorship. Which admittedly does make a lot of sense for the Imperium LMAO. But it also sort of makes the Space Marine Legions and by extent the Great Crusade era Imperium seem retroactively much less competent if (as some novels dubiously claim) the Custodes (no supporting fires, no fleet) were "always intended" to defeat even an individual Space Marin Legion in a war, unless we interpret those statements very narrowly or (preferably) ignore them.
 
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I'm struggling to see by what definition the Imperium is bad at War, and asking if a modern military can be them seems facetious because you would have to be deliberately fishing for the absolute lowest calcs for that to not be a joke.

Like, the Imperium has everything we have today and more, and even the baseline humans are freaks crafted by millenia of genetic engineering to be superhuman by today's standards (See Catachans, or any art of IG troops carrying Heavy Bolters around).

This reads like the deliberately comically low calcs people use to lambast the opposing side in VS are being taken seriously. Of course those numbers are silly, they were made to be silly. That's why they directly contradict the point of the series.
 
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40k is highly inefficient at warfare and it would be trivial to find way more effective ways to fight a war with the same resources.
But they still have absurd amounts of resources and thus they could trivially conquer modern Earth.
 
The Imperium of Man is good at fighting. There's no denying that they've got over the top super soldiers, weapons and starships. Put a space marine up against almost any other soldier in a 1 on 1 fight, and you end up with a space marine and one pile of chunky salsa.

But fighting is only a small part of warfare. For every soldier, there's ten people behind the scenes making sure that soldier can actually fight. People who manufactured and maintain weapons, who grow their food, mine the resources to build the war machines, pilots who get them to the battle, people who make the spaceships. And this is where the Imperium fails. They might be good at fighting, but they suck at logistics.

Their bureaucracy is so bloated and inefficient, there is so much wasted resources. Planets do get lost because of rounding errors. Ships ferrying goods and men regularly get lost in the warp. The adeptus mechanics doesn't understand it's technology, and use rituals to repair stuff. A lot of their best pieces of hardware are irreplaceable because nobody remembers how to make more. The Imperium has rejected robotics, and instead rely on inefficient teams of slaves, serfs, or servitors. Their cities have entire levels that don't produce anything, but instead are filled with gangs, mutants, and renegades.

And all this doesn't even touch on their horrible diplomacy, which doesn't extend beyond DIE XENOS!

So no, despite their impressive fighters, the Imperium is not good at war.
 
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Pre-Mechsuit Spam Tau would be the closest faction that has the organization capabilities of modern times. GW kind of inadvertently hit upon modern drone warfare before they swapped to heavy mechsuits that they could sell for mucho money. Markerlights are 1:1 copies of laser guided weapons, etc.
 
Modern drone warfare has more to do with loitering munitions than guns on drones.

So the closest one would be spore mine spam.
 
Modern drone warfare has more to do with loitering munitions than guns on drones.

So the closest one would be spore mine spam.

It's more the idea that every infantry squad could/would have a drone. Vehicles have drones to cover them. Squads have markers for targeting designation.
 
Yeah, it's especially funny when sometimes the depiction in a new Codex which is clearly meant to make a particular faction sound really hardcore instead makes them seem incompetent instead, which also happens a lot.

Or what happened with the Custodes, where they went from a small corps of elite bodyguards in the background to apparently being thousand of them with their own tanks and vehicles. This makes them appear like gold-plated regime protection forces and the Imperium like a third world dictatorship. Which admittedly does make a lot of sense for the Imperium LMAO. But it also sort of makes the Space Marine Legions and by extent the Great Crusade era Imperium seem retroactively much less competent if (as some novels dubiously claim) the Custodes (no supporting fires, no fleet) were "always intended" to defeat even an individual Space Marin Legion in a war, unless we interpret those statements very narrowly or (preferably) ignore them.

One things I kind of can't get over is how the Primaris reboot has actually sent the Space Marines back in time organisationally. They have more and generally better toys but Intercessor squads are just guys with battle rifles like it's the 1950s. Tactical squads weren't amazing in this regard but having an organic heavy weapon is such a boon makes them a much better formation. But of course all marketing is all about how Roboute is back and now the Space Marines are more amazing than ever, but as they want you buy as many different boxed sets as possible you end up with hyper specialised squads with no flexibility. It's a big step back.

I'm struggling to see by what definition the Imperium is bad at War

That's because your entire conception of 'war' is just guys getting into gunfights, which is like the least important thing.
 
That's because your entire conception of 'war' is just guys getting into gunfights, which is like the least important thing.

No?

The Imperium makes regular use of everything else too. They have giant landing craft, orbital drop pods, long range guided missiles, armored vehicles, drones, artillery, aerospace support, E-War, mass conscription, magic, and entire worlds to supply it all.

They don't actually lack anything in particular.
 
As I said in that thread, I think the answer for, say, Space Marines is that Space Marines are not bad at war, but the scenarios in which they fight on the tabletop obscure their strengths. Tabletop battles operate on two conceits: restrictions of space, and roughly equal forces. On a regular-scale table, Marines suck. This isn't even exaggeration, they have the lowest winrate in tournaments. On an Apocalypse-scale table, things begin to change. Marines are solidly mid-tier, because in Apocalypse if you can't mount out in a vehicle you're worthless, and thus Marines having the ability to drop troops from airmobile and orbital sources starts to tell. They are still hindered by the concept of roughly equal forces and lack the raw firepower of fully mechanized Guard, Mechanicus, or Tau.

It is on the scale of a game in your backyard that Space Marines are actually the top tier. Because it is on that scale that their mobility comes fully into play. At that scale, where it's important not only to have vehicles to get into position, but you are going to have to redeploy several times, Space Marines come into their own. Many other forces have an option to deploy troops anywhere once, either due to the weakness of their transports or the method of deepstrike, but very few have the ability to pick them up and fly them anywhere they like again. The Thunderhawk's size and durability finally work in its favor, and its firepower doesn't hurt. The Thunderhawk Transporter, able to actually turn armored vehicles airmobile, is just icing on the cake. You haven't truly lived until you've had a couple of Land Raiders dropped on your flank. Combining with this, the size of the battle area finally frees Space Marines to actually put that mobility to full use and attack isolated portions of the enemy force, freeing them from the tyranny of roughly even matchups and able to achieve local superiority with shocking ease. Fighting them is like fighting angry ghosts; by the time you deploy for battle, nobody's there.

At that large scale, the only people who come close are Drop Regiments of the Guard, who trade the firepower and durability of Space Marine infantry and Thunderhawks for the numbers and flexibility of armed Valkyries and the face-melting anti-armor punch of Vultures.
 
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Marines suck in the tabletop because in the lore they rely on stuff like hitting the enemy weakspots and leadership through orbital drops and teleportation faster than what the enemy can react and abusing the fact that their armor is pretty much invulnerable against small arms.

But the moment their enemy is able to react and bring anti-tank weapons, tanks, artillery and air support, Marines start dying fast.

And the tabletop is literally equal forces deployed usually in range of each other with whatever the players wanted to bring (so usually heavy weapons, tanks and artillery). Of course Marines struggle when each game is a prepared killzone that favors attrition heavy factions.
 
No?

The Imperium makes regular use of everything else too. They have giant landing craft, orbital drop pods, long range guided missiles, armored vehicles, drones, artillery, aerospace support, E-War, mass conscription, magic, and entire worlds to supply it all.

They don't actually lack anything in particular.

Just the fact that you think mass conscription is an advantage really says it all lol

Marines suck in the tabletop because in the lore they rely on stuff like hitting the enemy weakspots and leadership through orbital drops and teleportation faster than what the enemy can react and abusing the fact that their armor is pretty much invulnerable against small arms.

But the moment their enemy is able to react and bring anti-tank weapons, tanks, artillery and air support, Marines start dying fast.

Space Marines having really good resilience makes them narratively suitable for desperate last stands, which is a key tranche of WH40k fluff. Guys up against overwhelming odds that can't be defeated but making them pay for every inch is maybe one of the most common story types and it's one of the main two types of Space Marine stories, at least historically. The downside from their perspective is that they're always getting totally encircled or pinned down which is realistically probably one of the weaknesses of the high speed orbital drop as a tactic. Hard to get out once you're down.
 
In saying all that from a completely out of universe perspective I don't think it's the case that Space Marines have really poor performance on the standard table top, the game is really highly tuned these days and several Space Marine factions are above 50% win rate by last year's data. CSMs were 4th best, Black Templars were equal 5th with the Tau, while the Imperial Guard was equal second last. Also historically one of the most oppressive armies was Iron Hands in 8th edition lol
 
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