Iron Fist will be Loras Tyrell

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Full article here.
Game of Thrones actor Finn Jones to play Iron Fist
Marvel has found its newest superhero: Game of Thrones actor Finn Jones has landed the coveted series lead in Iron Fist.
Jones, who plays Ser Loras Tyrell on the HBO hit, will take on the role of the martial arts master in the upcoming Netflix series, EW has learned.

I think I'm neutral to the race issue (albeit leaning towards positive due to liking Finn Jones in Game of Thrones) because while the character does have some hallmarks of a 'mighty whitey' archetype, the alternative suggested by some would be to do a race-lift and cast an Asian, which would itself be stereotypical in the 'all-Asians know martial-arts kind of way'. So, really, it seems a kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing.
 
Cool. Finn Jones is a decent actor and was one of several whose character didn't go as far as it could have on GOT. While I'd have preferred the Asian-American route myself, I'm not really attached to the Iron Fist character.
 
Full article here.


I think I'm neutral to the race issue (albeit leaning towards positive due to liking Finn Jones in Game of Thrones) because while the character does have some hallmarks of a 'mighty whitey' archetype, the alternative suggested by some would be to do a race-lift and cast an Asian, which would itself be stereotypical in the 'all-Asians know martial-arts kind of way'. So, really, it seems a kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing.
I disagree.

People keep saying its damned if you do damned if you don't.

You can have Asian characters who know martial arts. There's nothing wrong with that.
 
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Ok, actually saw the first 2 episodes.
The first episode is probably the worst thing I've ever seen. Finn Jones was trying his best but the writing was pretty poor and I wasn't that impressed by some of the other major actors (*cough* Meachum siblings *cough*). The fight scenes didn't seem that impressive either but they weren't a deal-breaker.

2nd episode improved on pretty much everything, especially the acting quality. Overall, it feels like a less-good version of Daredevil, and I didn't really like Daredevil.
As an Australian, I'm proud to say that David Wenham did well as Harold Meachum, despite the fact that whenever I saw him I immediately thought of Murray Whelan.
 
I didn't have much interest in seeing this before, and then I found an essay that pretty much sunk any hopes of caring at all.

White Men Playing With Sticks: Iron Fist, Martial Arts and Respect

Jessica Jones and Luke Cage owe at least some of their success to their willingness to pass the mic to people who weren't white dudes and let them talk about stuff besides dressing in costumes and beating up poor people. Fuck, even Daredevil had something to say about religion and poverty when he wasn't hospitalizing the entire criminal population of Manhattan in glorious hallway scenes.

But from what I've seen and heard, there's just nothing in Iron Fist that indicates they had any desire to replicate that. It's soulless.
 
I didn't have much interest in seeing this before, and then I found an essay that pretty much sunk any hopes of caring at all.

White Men Playing With Sticks: Iron Fist, Martial Arts and Respect

Jessica Jones and Luke Cage owe at least some of their success to their willingness to pass the mic to people who weren't white dudes and let them talk about stuff besides dressing in costumes and beating up poor people. Fuck, even Daredevil had something to say about religion and poverty when he wasn't hospitalizing the entire criminal population of Manhattan in glorious hallway scenes.

But from what I've seen and heard, there's just nothing in Iron Fist that indicates they had any desire to replicate that. It's soulless.
Article:
Those first release photos show actor Finn Jones, the titular Iron Fist, to be using a shinai–the bamboo practice sword used for swinging and sparring, meant to represent a katana–which does not fit him. It is the size which would be handed to a ten-year-old child. Even though a practice sword is made of bamboo and leather it is held and swung like the real thing. There's a dedicated "cutting" edge. Jones is holding his child-sized shinai upside-down, with the edge pointed at his own face.


My sides have reached Pluto.
 
Article:
Those first release photos show actor Finn Jones, the titular Iron Fist, to be using a shinai–the bamboo practice sword used for swinging and sparring, meant to represent a katana–which does not fit him. It is the size which would be handed to a ten-year-old child. Even though a practice sword is made of bamboo and leather it is held and swung like the real thing. There's a dedicated "cutting" edge. Jones is holding his child-sized shinai upside-down, with the edge pointed at his own face.


My sides have reached Pluto.

It's a pretty funny article, but also depressing. Like, this is how little of a shit they gave about the real world cultural ideas they were supposed to be portraying, and it's all the more egregious because it comes on the heels of home runs like Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. It's like if a roller coaster built itself way the fuck up and then just ended.
 
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It's a pretty funny article, but also depressing. Like, this is how little of a shit they gave about the real world cultural ideas they were supposed to be portraying.
It's like they looked at the character of Iron Fist and, putting their pitchers of paint neatly back down on the conference table, started banging it with their fists and screaming "DOUBLE DOWN DOUBLE DOWN".

There's a conversation to be had here about whether Danny should've stayed white or been recast as Asian, whether that's more or less offensive (oh, the Asian superhero is the one with magic kungfu, how original), what could be added or detracted from his character by said change, et cetera et cetera. On the one hand Danny gets lost in the mountains and raised to be a kungfu master at the age of nine and only returns to America once he's a grown-ass man so it's not exactly "white man learns Asian culture in an afternoon" (lay off him, he had to fight a dragon and bearhug it to death while it gave him a tattoo) but on the other you could do interesting things with the experience of being born in America, growing up the rest of the way overseas, and having to reintegrate all over again once he goes home - could tie it into how he spent the majority of his life training in kung fu for Revenge which rarely goes well for a hero.

All lost, because the showrunners fucked it up out of the starting gate. It seriously cannot be hard for a high-profile Netflix budget to put out a few Craigslist ads for consultants. Or some basic googling.
 
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It's like they looked at the character of Iron Fist and, putting their pitchers of paint neatly back down on the conference table, started banging it with their fists and screaming "DOUBLE DOWN DOUBLE DOWN".

There's a conversation to be had here about whether Danny should've stayed white or been recast as Asian, whether that's more or less offensive (oh, the Asian superhero is the one with magic kungfu, how original), what could be added or detracted from his character by said change, et cetera et cetera. On the one hand Danny gets lost in the mountains and raised to be a kungfu master at the age of nine and only returns to America once he's a grown-ass man so it's not exactly "white man learns Asian culture in an afternoon" (lay off him, he had to fight a dragon and bearhug it to death while it gave him a tattoo) but on the other you could do interesting things with the experience of being born in America, growing up the rest of the way overseas, and having to reintegrate all over again once he goes home - could tie it into how he spent the majority of his life training in kung fu for Revenge which rarely goes well for a hero.

All lost, because the showrunners fucked it up out of the starting gate. It seriously cannot be hard for a high-profile Netflix budget to put out a few Craigslist ads for consultants. Or some basic googling.

Some friends of mine and I recently had a bar conversation (And by bar I mean Round Table) about how to save Iron Fist without recasting Danny Rand and the best idea we could come up with was "Danny Rand is an alt-righter and the entire show is him fucking over other people's lives while whining about how persecuted he is". We couldn't decide if the show's climax should build to him becoming a better person or fucking dying.
 
Three episodes in and I'm disappointed with the fights

Daredevil had some pretty intense fighting in the beginning and a show that's supposed to revolve around a super martial artist isn't faring well in comparison

The fuck happened here?
 
My sides have reached Pluto.

Does anyone know where I can see that picture with the shinai? I found one of them but I can't find the other.

(And goddamn, literally everything I know about kendo comes from manga or anime and I can immediately tell how utterly wrong that is.)

(oh, the Asian superhero is the one with magic kungfu, how original)

I was willing to buy that excuse the first time with Doctor Strange because of Tilda Swinton and the... issues surrounding Tibet, but this isn't the first time Disney pulled that excuse anymore, Finn Jones is not Tilda Swinton, and the story isn't set in Tibet. I probably would have let it slide the second time as something that just happens in cinema/television, but if the overall execution is so incompetent that they can't tell the difference between a katana and a jian... No.
 
Episode 4 and the utterly kindergarden level sophistication of the arguments on both sides of the "we should sell the medicine for profit/good" debate are infuriating.

The authors clearly have zero respect for the audience, which is probably even worse because I have recently been watching the wire.

That said, I am happy with the casting on Colleen Wing, because she actually looks like she's someone who has maybe trained to fight something other than WAIF FU. Though it's kinda sad that that's noteworthy rather than the baseline for the industry.
 
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I found one of them but I can't find the other.

Holy shit, it really is tiny.

Like, honestly, Danny Rand the Iron Fist is not necessarily a big deal. It's pretty old fashioned to have a white dude in the role, but the character was created in 1974. It would be a good launching point for a conversation, but I think we could get past it ... if the portrayal of martial arts wasn't so obviously half-assed. Like, I don't know, I could buy a Chinese martial artist borrowing a shinai while visiting a kendo, but that's not a kendo dojo. That's some nondenominational 80s martial arts thing.
 
Couldn't Jessica Henwick play Danielle Rand and Finn Jones play Colin Wing?

Seriously, they are so much better suited for each others roles!
 
I have watched 5 episodes of Iron Fist.

When Danny Rand explains to a sympathetic character his training among the warrior-monks of K'un-L'un, the other character reacts with bafflement and explicitely likens it to child abuse. Danny's reaction is a meek, "it made me what I am had today." "What are you, Danny?" she asks.

He has no answer.

Danny Rand was trained to become the Immortal Iron Fist, sworn enemy of the Hand. But he does not know what the Hand is; he believes them to be a metaphor for the evils of the world, rather than any actual group of people. He comes back home and he has no plan, no idea what to do beyond "get people to acknowledge my name." He has no purpose.

The sum total of Danny Rand's life skills is knowing how to fuck people up. His experience of human relationship is being beaten up over and over until he could beat others up harder than anyone else. Danny was taught to meditate in a purely internal manner, focusing on his inner balance rather than any sort of connection with the world. He is the Iron Fist, the world breaks before him.

"I'm not dangerous," Danny repeats over and over with sincere belief. But he is; his only skill is shattering things and people, and his lack of social grace, of human contact, leaves him unable to properly relate to others or get them to relate to him. His temper flies, over and over, and he shatters things, flips tables, screams. He wants to be righteous but he is only violent.

Danny Rand is that abusive relative who never lays a hand on you but will break plates and furniture in a burning anger and let you know that at any moment that strength could be directed to you, and that all you have to defend yourself are this stated principle that he wouldn't hurt you (but you've seen him hurt others, plenty of times).

Danny Rand has no sense of propriety. He breaks into people's homes and is confused when they react badly. He does not realize that he needs a change of clothes, a shower and a shave for anyone to take him seriously. Not only is he confused and vaguely embarrased when people give him money thinking he is a hobo, he hounds them to give them their money back.

When a homeless man tries to give him tips for life on the street, he has a patronizing smile and says "I guess people think we're pretty much the same." Yes, Danny, you are; you are homeless people adrift in a world that neither acknowledges nor want them, only you have the skills to defend against violence and visit it upon others.

Danny Rand's kryptonite is drugs. Not even a knock-out quantity; he spends an entire episode in a psych yard, all the while on enough drugs to keep him dazed and unbalanced, and this disturbs his "chi," robbing him of his skills and powers. There's meaning in that, however unintentional: Danny is confused, lost, his powers are not mystical; they are the willingness to unleash violence on others before they realize how much of a threat he is. Keep him sedate, and he has nothing, only a very confusing backstory that he doesn't know how to tell, leaving him to frighten or push away even those who would be willing to believe him.

To break out of the psych yard, Danny has to wait until he is pushed to the limit, hurt and angered so much that even the drugs can't keep that violence down and he bursts out of his shackles to knock out three people, then break down a steel door. Reach freedom through violence, then.

Danny Rand shows up at a martial artist's dojo and challenges her, because he believes that is how things are done. She does not humour him; whether at the start when she thinks he's just a crazy hobo without real skills, or later when he beats her in a practice bout, she never treats this challenge as an acceptable thing. Danny Rand may be the best martial artist she knows, but he's still a crazy homeless guy with no people skills. She picks up a few tricks from him, but does not treat him as the second coming of Kung Fu Jesus, no matter how strong he is. Crazy people challenge you to a fight for your dojo. This is her job and her way of helping local youth.

Danny Rand is defeated or almost defeated three times in five episodes. First, by drugs, which make him a nobody. Second, by a guy sucker-punching him with brass knuckles, which leaves him so stunned that he fights with average thug skill rather than Iron Fist skill. Third, by a guy who sees him climb up a window and just kick him down into the street.

One could say that Danny Rand needs focus and awareness to fully leverage his skills. The truth is that Danny Rand needs the initiative. Whether or not he strikes the first blow, he needs awareness of the impending possibility of pain. He needs to "psych up," because violence is dormant in every nerve of his body, and then he will break you.

By episode 5 the first antagonists have succeeded, almost all trace of Danny Rand's past have disappeared, his only hope at recognition is a single clay bowl he made as a child. He has spent five episodes struggling for his name, and this is his only lead; he seems to still have an uphill battle. "Decades in court," a character spitefully says. Then, the antagonists decide they can make better use of him as a tool. The entire subplot about his legitimacy is scrapped in one scene, two at best, and Danny Rand gains everything he ever wanted, which again leaves him with no purpose. Then the antagonists direct him towards the real villain, "the Hand," which have taken over Rand (the corporation) from the inside. Danny still doesn't know what the Hand is. What they want. But they're evil, and his new benefactors point him at them, so he will break doors and people until he finds out.

Danny Rand is a blade, a tool without purpose. He is a tool in both the swear sense (he is a clueless, arrogant, self-righteous idiot), and in the practical sense: something other people manipulate to achieve their goals.

Danny Rand is not a good person. Iron Fist is not a good show. But it certainly is a fascinating trainwreck to watch in action.
 
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I would agree with everything that @Omicron has said so far except for it not being a good show. With exception of the second episode, that is and I say that because Jeff Lemire did it better with Moon Knight. I haven't seen the 5th episode yet so I stopped reading at that point. I can only binge watch so much of any show before things start becoming a blur. I might get another episode or two in before the night is over.

All in all, I wouldn't say that the things that Omicron mentioned make Danny a bad person; just a flawed character that in many ways is remaining true to the some of the source material. When he mentioned to Al that he guesses that people think they are pretty much the same, I took that as him being slightly enlightened by that image and coming to understand, even if just a little why his childhood friends reacted to him the way that they did.

But even after that brief moment of enlightenment, he is still baffled by peoples' reactions towards him. He grew up in a different world (literally and figuratively). Growing up in K'un-Lun, one's image such as clothes, hairstyle and even hygiene were less important than the lessons they were learning. And when his experiences there were likened to child abuse, I think that it made sense for him to not know how to respond to that other than to say that it made him what he is (even if he is not fully aware of who that is just yet). As a product of what I refer to as minor abuse and personally knowing those whom suffered far worse than I, it is not an uncanny reaction. When he was describing his time there, I was comparing it to abuse before Joy actually said it herself.

At this point, Danny is not a hero. He's barely the Iron Fist. It is a title that, although he earned, he does not seem to fully understand it. There is only so much he can learn in the training yard. In order to grow as a person and to turn into someone truly worthy of retaining the title, he needs to experience the world. A part of that experience, much like in real life, includes making mistakes. He possesses this sort of childlike naivety where he doesn't understand why people are reacting to him the way that they are. Even at the board room meeting where they were determining the price of the drug they had manufactured, he made the rash decision of selling it at cost. In a very black and white, liberal view, how could this be a bad thing? But the development of that drug was thanks to profits made in similar fashion that helped fund its research.

Now I'm not sure if they are going to expand on this and similar elements farther on down the line. I certainly hope so. But as I am only four episodes on, I am not so short-sighted as to believe that Danny Rand is finished growing and maturing as a character or as a hero. In fact, he's just beginning. When you first introduce a character, you must include flaws for them to overcome or else why do we care about them? I can think of nothing more boring than watching a character with a perfect moral viewpoint who is justified in every action they take. Even Superman, the ultimate Boy Scout must overcome designed flaws while questioning the rightness of his actions.

But so far, I think it is too soon for me to say whether I think this is a good show or a bad show. As I said earlier, the second episode left me terribly unimpressed. The drugs dulling his abilities made sense and even his attitude while incarcerated but I still couldn't help but think of Lemire's Moon Knight and how they did that whole angle so much better even adding in the much-needed mystical elements. So far, I would say that I am more impressed with this than I was with the second season of Daredevil but Jessica Jones and Luke Cage both had me far more invested by this point than does Iron Fist. At this point in the show, I still think it could go either way in terms of quality.
 
I was willing to buy that excuse the first time with Doctor Strange because of Tilda Swinton and the... issues surrounding Tibet, but this isn't the first time Disney pulled that excuse anymore, Finn Jones is not Tilda Swinton, and the story isn't set in Tibet. I probably would have let it slide the second time as something that just happens in cinema/television, but if the overall execution is so incompetent that they can't tell the difference between a katana and a jian... No.
I mean, this seems backwards to me. Swinton's case is all the more egregious given the context of a character possibly being erased in order to avoid making people uncomfortable about real world things tensions with their land.

If anything were said to be offensive...that's it right there.
 
I mean, this seems backwards to me. Swinton's case is all the more egregious given the context of a character possibly being erased in order to avoid making people uncomfortable about real world things tensions with their land.

If anything were said to be offensive...that's it right there.

The bit with the Ancient One in the Strange movie wasn't about making people uncomfortable about real world tensions. It was about marketing. I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of Marvel fans in China who couldn't care less that the character is from Tibet but the government could potentially stop the movie from being shown there and thus Disney loses out on a lot of money. So by casting Swinton, Disney was not trying to protect anybody's feelings. They were trying to protect their profit because China is a huge market.
 
The bit with the Ancient One in the Strange movie wasn't about making people uncomfortable about real world tensions. It was about marketing. I'm willing to bet that there are plenty of Marvel fans in China who couldn't care less that the character is from Tibet but the government could potentially stop the movie from being shown there and thus Disney loses out on a lot of money. So by casting Swinton, Disney was not trying to protect anybody's feelings. They were trying to protect their profit because China is a huge market.
I mean...I'm not really seeing the meaningful distinction from what I said being highlighted here? I'm aware of why Disney did it
 
I mean...I'm not really seeing the meaningful distinction from what I said being highlighted here? I'm aware of why Disney did it

The way you stated it seemed to imply that the reason that Disney did it was because they did not want to make their audience in China uncomfortable.

Swinton's case is all the more egregious given the context of a character possibly being erased in order to avoid making people uncomfortable about real world things tensions with their land.

I was pointing out that it didn't have anything to do with not wanting to offend anybody but with being able to distribute the movie to China without it being banned by political agendas.
 
The way you stated it seemed to imply that the reason that Disney did it was because they did not want to make their audience in China uncomfortable.



I was pointing out that it didn't have anything to do with not wanting to offend anybody but with being able to distribute the movie to China without it being banned by political agendas.
Ah, noted. I didn't specify. I took it that part of the worry was getting the movie in past the government at all but also thought they could offend customers.

Still seems to me a matter of making people uncomfortable, just a smaller circle of people.

To me, ultimately, it makes little difference. In context the Tilda Swinton thing is far weirder and ickier than keeping Danny Rand white, especially since he's such a bad Mighty Whitey character (which was deliberate)
 
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