Industrialization Quest

Love the quest so far even if I couldn't catch up on all the discussion.

To give my 2 cents on the measurements discussion:

Standardized Measures are important on a large scale. That's where they matter.

So if you have a logistics chain where parts are transported far before assembly, you need to be able to trust that you get what you actually ordered.

But at the current scale in a village? Harold just goes to the relevant Craftsman, shows them how long/big something needs to be and it's done.

It's really only a game changer on a national scale, hence why it only appeared as an issue when industrialization started to kick off.

So it's something for when he gets a position of power where he can introduce it or he knows people in positions of power that would listen and consider it a good idea.

The only three options so far are his parents, which are not that high ranking I believe and fairly martial. That retired general whom may be interested but it's unlikely and that tax collector.

The tax collector is the most likely to care but she's probably not high ranking enough. She may be able to pass the idea on, though.

But that hardly helps Harold in the short or medium term. He should first become a business tycoon before worrying about that.


Bees or getting explosives is much more effective.

The first makes money in honey and wax. And I'd really like to highlight the wax here as well. The people in the quest probably use tallow candles, which smell fairly gross. The downside is that it only provides money half the year.

Explosives are gonna be a big hit with the military. Sappers are gonna love it to take apart fortifications. Or as primitive fragmentation grenades. It also plays well with our mine. People hate mining for good reason. But only having to make some holes and putting in blackpowder? Much easier. The same applies to land clearing and so on. Explosives are hella useful.

It's also fairly low effort as it just requires mixing together three chemicals. One which we can get locally.


Also a bit about vodka: Distelling the stuff has the added issue that some of the stuff makes blind. It's usually the first part that runs out and can be separated by smell. But Harold doesn't know that, I think. On the upside, he isn't limited by fermented potatoes or the like. He can get alcohol from the bad wine/beer that he buys on the cheap. Even the fermentation remains (like grapes) yield quite a bit of alcohol. The difficulty will be getting it for a good price given distances.

There is also the fun idea of making molotovs for the army. Fairly sure people will love setting zombies on fire. Clay jugs should work well enough.


Btw, that watermill: It can also work as a trip hammer, right? That'd be another nice boost to the iron mine.

(trip hammers are basically hammers that crush the ore into dust to make it easier to smelt. Doing it by hand is a awful lot of work)
 
Depending on the terms of the loan, we might be in a position to start four-field crop rotation in the spring. It's 4 Profit invested through autumn, but it should increase the amount of grain for the mill eventually, and starting it early will give more time for the concept to spread.

I'm not sure when it'll be worth doing, but it occurred to me that we could send a copy of the Monster Manual to Harold's parents once it's finished. Between his parents and the retired general, we might have enough indirect influence to get people to pay attention to it. The prescence of additional zombies and the possibility of a necromancer has me worrying more about how well Harold and Nesiwald will do if they're attacked.

I'd also like to build a main road, but I'm not sure at what point it'll be worth it. People are already coming from other parts of the region for cheap iron tools; would milled flour be enough of a draw to make a road a good investment?
 
Depending on the terms of the loan, we might be in a position to start four-field crop rotation in the spring. It's 4 Profit invested through autumn, but it should increase the amount of grain for the mill eventually, and starting it early will give more time for the concept to spread.
Sorry for the double-post, but it's been over an hour without anyone else posting, and I made a big enough mistake that I thought I should make a separate post to correct it. The four-field crop rotation says that the Profit is invested through 2 harvests. That probably means that if we vote for it next turn or in the spring, it will be invested through next spring's harvest, which means the benefits largely won't appear until Year 3. We'll have to forecast how much money we're going to earn in the second year to see whether we can spare the Profit, considering the second year's penalty.
 
So it's better to finish the mill this winter.

Edit:

Nevermind. Let's finish it this spring.
 
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All of 'em. Doing any things at all in winter is hard, there's no unmilled grain around, there's snow everywhere, it's a pain.
 
Depending on the terms of the loan, we might be in a position to start four-field crop rotation in the spring. It's 4 Profit invested through autumn, but it should increase the amount of grain for the mill eventually, and starting it early will give more time for the concept to spread.

I'm not sure when it'll be worth doing, but it occurred to me that we could send a copy of the Monster Manual to Harold's parents once it's finished. Between his parents and the retired general, we might have enough indirect influence to get people to pay attention to it. The prescence of additional zombies and the possibility of a necromancer has me worrying more about how well Harold and Nesiwald will do if they're attacked.

I'd also like to build a main road, but I'm not sure at what point it'll be worth it. People are already coming from other parts of the region for cheap iron tools; would milled flour be enough of a draw to make a road a good investment?
Sources:
-The mill is slated for an average of 15 or greater annually (with a <10% chance of producing less). By itself it should pay for the entire second winter fine.
-Smiths' forge averages 3 annually (with a <10% of producing less). It can probably be used to cover part of the principle on a loan.
-The Mine averages 3 annually (with a <10% of producing less). It can probably cover the other half of a loan principle.
-Yearly Stipends are worth 7 annually. They can easily cover any loan interest and start accounting for a surplus for the year.

Speculative:
-Mine improvement pt. II (possible to complete by end of winter). Most likely result is +1 base income, which pushes the average value of the mine over the next year to 7. +4 tentative profit annually. best guess cost is ~3-4 profit investment (going on previous improvement cost), probably for 6 months.

-Greens' forge may or may not pay us directly, but we are funding it's construction, so probably yes. It will probably generate 2 or less annually until we get plows/the year-long investment completes. Net cost is none by the end of next year, but requires a loan to get up in time. cost is 4

-Plows will be stupid valuable, likely without too much direct investment unless we start needing to buy iron. We will likely see the value of plows folded into Greens' smithy, probably an extra 2 profit per season (8 annually seems like a reasonable return...). Better with the mine pt. II. best guess cost is ~4 invested for three months, or maybe it will act like Forgework and just be a constant action investment (possibly with a cost).

-Distillery will be like a mill that may work in winter, though it will probably be lower profit per quarter. Best guess quarterly is 1d6+(1-2) or 2d4+1, so it would have an annual somewhere between 14 and 20. Probably costs similar to the large windmill, so around 10.

Expenses:
-Winter fines will cost 25 over the course of the next year.
-Mill 1 and 2 cost 18, but we have already pretty much decided we're getting it.
-Greens forge will cost 4
-Four field costs 4 for just two harvests, and we can start it on the spring turn if need be.
-Plows will probably cost 4 at most, but likely less.
-Mines I cost 2, Mines II will probably cost 3-4.
-Nobody knows, but the distillery will probably run us 8-12 if we try for it.

Finances: 16 now, 2 quarters left in the year (this turn should average ~9 profit income)
Expenses this turn: 8 mill+4 greens forge+(mine I cancels itself immediately)=12
Next turn's finances: ~13 (+worst loan guess with a nat 100 is 5 profit, owe 7 a year later) (should average ~4 profit income)
Expenses next turn: 10 mill+~4 mine II+(unknown cost of plows, worst case 4 immediate)+4 crop rotation= 22
End-of-turn profit: ~0, need 10

If worst comes to worst, we will probably have to not do crop rotation, the mine, or the plows. If I were to speculate more wildly on the possible loans we could take... we could potentially go as high as 10, with no 'dues' afterwards, the lender would just be short-selling what we mill for hopefully no more than two quarters.

Expanding out towards the end of year 2, the mill alone will cover all costs, and we should expect to see anywhere from 21 to 30 profit accumulated, after subtracting the mill's entire average yield for the year to cover the winter cost.
 
All this talk about the mill has me thinking about who will run it day to day? Theirs Mr. Smith as the original blacksmith, Timothy will be the new one in town, but who will run the mill? On the face of it, we own the thing but I can't imagine that operating the thing will be easy or for one person. Will there be some sort of roll to see if we hire the right person, or the quality of their work?
On the other hand we have a wog that it'll produce 2d4+1 a season, so the quality is answered but what of the quality of the person?

And now I realize I'm giving out ideas, oh, woh, is me! :o :D
 
If worst comes to worst, we will probably have to not do crop rotation, the mine, or the plows. If I were to speculate more wildly on the possible loans we could take... we could potentially go as high as 10, with no 'dues' afterwards, the lender would just be short-selling what we mill for hopefully no more than two quarters.

Expanding out towards the end of year 2, the mill alone will cover all costs, and we should expect to see anywhere from 21 to 30 profit accumulated, after subtracting the mill's entire average yield for the year to cover the winter cost.
Carpentry is another possible investment, and we should probably take the option to investigate it next turn. Hopefully, we'll have a better idea of what our finances will look like by spring.

Though I keep worrying about unexpected expenses and losses of income. For example, we need two successes to build the windmill. If we fail, then the windmill is delayed, and we don't make as much Profit as we were hoping. And let's hope that experimenting with vodka doesn't involve as many failures and lost Profit as experimenting with sandcasting did. I'm also not sure how Nesiwald will be affected if there really is a necromancer in the mountains.
 
It's also fairly low effort as it just requires mixing together three chemicals. One which we can get locally.

If you are talking about blackpowder we can get two locally produced chemicals definitely, charcoal from wood (also potentially collect wood gas at this stage for other projects) and nitre from nitre beds. Granted, the latter is not very scalable if we need a lot of it (which we will) but some can be supplied locally at least.

It is not exactly "mixing together three chemicals" though; for good quality blackpowder for use as blasting charges in the mine we'll probably want to corn it as an example which will probably be best with some kind of drying oven.
 
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It is not exactly "mixing together three chemicals" though; for good quality blackpowder for use as blasting charges in the mine we'll probably want to corn them as an example, which will probably be best with some kind of drying oven.

You could probably heat the drying ovens by the off gassing of turning wood into coal, or similarly a coking oven. Although, if I recall correctly there's a bit of a feed back loop in both were the off gassing in both is or can be used to heat up wood to coal and coking ovens.
Wonder how many topics all of this will be through the codex?
 
All this talk about the mill has me thinking about who will run it day to day? Theirs Mr. Smith as the original blacksmith, Timothy will be the new one in town, but who will run the mill? On the face of it, we own the thing but I can't imagine that operating the thing will be easy or for one person. Will there be some sort of roll to see if we hire the right person, or the quality of their work?
On the other hand we have a wog that it'll produce 2d4+1 a season, so the quality is answered but what of the quality of the person?

And now I realize I'm giving out ideas, oh, woh, is me! :o :D

That's true, we will need to hire a miller. We might want someone associated with the god of rivers...
 
I'm wondering when we'll get the option to have one of the river god's priests inspect the mill. I'm hoping that we can do it in the same turn we choose Part 2 as a piety option because I don't want to delay opening the mill. We're supposed to make a donation then, but I'm not expecting it to be more than 1 or 2 Profit.
 
I'm wondering when we'll get the option to have one of the river god's priests inspect the mill. I'm hoping that we can do it in the same turn we choose Part 2 as a piety option because I don't want to delay opening the mill. We're supposed to make a donation then, but I'm not expecting it to be more than 1 or 2 Profit.

And we should definitely have the firefighting religion people look over our black powder mill when we make one.
 
I'd also like to build a main road, but I'm not sure at what point it'll be worth it. People are already coming from other parts of the region for cheap iron tools; would milled flour be enough of a draw to make a road a good investment?

We didn't do a codex action for roads, right?

Because the King drag method of dirt road maintenance was apparently invented in the 1900s, despite being incredibly simple; they have the technology to implement it here (it's just a wood structure and a beast of burden) and this might be a way to make roads cheaper (no need for road paving stones) that are still decent quality.

[ ] Actual Roads. The main routes in Nesiwald are simple dirt paths. No matter how grandiosely they may be called 'roads', they simply aren't. If you are going to be in Nesiwald for a while, especially if you are going to get it to grow in size and relevance, you're going to need real roads at some point. The Codex shows you how to make a good road: Stone pavers on top of a gravel bed which is itself on a flat surface of well-compacted dirt. Write up some plans, get enough people on board with the idea, and make a lovely main road for the village.
Cost: 5 Profit burned. Difficulty: 50 - 15 (Census Bonus). Easier to move people and goods around within Nesiwald. Road-building experience.



Depending on the quality of those dirt paths, we could just do maintenance, no actual construction.

Wikipedia said:
...It was a sensation in its day. States passed laws requiring its use. The design was so simple that King did not enforce his patent rights. However he did tour the country explaining to how to use it.[4] He also wrote articles such as one that appeared in the May 7, 1910 issue of the Saturday Evening Post entitled "Good Roads Without Money."

King would further enhance his invention with his patent 1,102,671 in 1914 which included four bars and two triangular scrapers...

(Emphasis mine)

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More generally, I don't think that we should really be spending a full five profit on public roads - if it's for private roads, meaning a toll bridge/tunnel or something like that, sure. But until we get a company town charter or we're collecting local taxes because we've been ennobled again why should we pay (there's an exception if it's for a road specifically built for what is primarily our purposes, like from the mine to the forge)? A few profit to fund a significant public good and have people like us more would be okay, but for five a return would be nice.
 
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More generally, I don't think that we should really be spending a full five profit on public roads - if it's for private roads, meaning a toll bridge/tunnel or something like that, sure. But until we get a company town charter or we're collecting local taxes because we've been ennobled again why should we pay (there's an exception if it's for a road specifically built for what is primarily our purposes, like from the mine to the forge)? A few profit to fund a significant public good and have people like us more would be okay, but for five a return would be nice.
The MC has remarked several times that the roads in the area are pretty bad. Merchants are not willing to regularly come to Nesiwald because of the bad roads combined with the small market. I think once we build the main road and get road building experience, we'll get an option to build roads going to Nesiwald as well. However, someone posted that the GM said road building wouldn't help the local ecomony until there's something worth coming to Nesiwald for. The watermill MIGHT be worth building roads for because I can see people willing to bring their grain to the watermill instead of trying to grind it themselves, but if it's too difficult to bring the grain there, they won't bother, and we won't get the Profit from letting them use the watermill..

It's hard to determine when it would be worth building roads, but we need to do it eventually if we want to improve the local economy and increase the market for our investments. There's only so much iron that we can use locally, and eventually everyone around will have horse collars and iron plows.
 
The MC has remarked several times that the roads in the area are pretty bad. Merchants are not willing to regularly come to Nesiwald because of the bad roads combined with the small market. I think once we build the main road and get road building experience, we'll get an option to build roads going to Nesiwald as well. However, someone posted that the GM said road building wouldn't help the local ecomony until there's something worth coming to Nesiwald for. The watermill MIGHT be worth building roads for because I can see people willing to bring their grain to the watermill instead of trying to grind it themselves, but if it's too difficult to bring the grain there, they won't bother, and we won't get the Profit from letting them use the watermill..

It's hard to determine when it would be worth building roads, but we need to do it eventually if we want to improve the local economy and increase the market for our investments. There's only so much iron that we can use locally, and eventually everyone around will have horse collars and iron plows.
If we commit to roads in Neiswald, we will probably kick off a codex action for scraping. Hell, there's so many leftover threads of ideas to pull that the next time we consult the codex for new projects we'll probably get half a dozen of them or more. Something for the mine, something for a water-powered forge, something for carpentry, something for farming maybe (we haven't really pushed into that very hard though), definitely something for roads after the trouble in getting to Ganz...

The best time to build roads is probably when we start getting indications that there's real trade traffic in Neiswald. There will be people who won't want to make the trek, but there will also be people willing to take the time for an unusual product or local specialty. If there's any regional demand for something in Neiswald, chances are there's more regional demand that just can't afford or risk the trip that roads would help with.

When will that be is anyone's guess, but I'd say it'll probably be once Greens' forge is up and running, faster if we have the distillery finished before the end of the year.
 
The MC has remarked several times that the roads in the area are pretty bad. Merchants are not willing to regularly come to Nesiwald because of the bad roads combined with the small market. I think once we build the main road and get road building experience, we'll get an option to build roads going to Nesiwald as well. However, someone posted that the GM said road building wouldn't help the local ecomony until there's something worth coming to Nesiwald for. The watermill MIGHT be worth building roads for because I can see people willing to bring their grain to the watermill instead of trying to grind it themselves, but if it's too difficult to bring the grain there, they won't bother, and we won't get the Profit from letting them use the watermill..

It's hard to determine when it would be worth building roads, but we need to do it eventually if we want to improve the local economy and increase the market for our investments. There's only so much iron that we can use locally, and eventually everyone around will have horse collars and iron plows.

Yeah, but if we are the person who pays instead of everyone pitching in (it's a public good that would help the whole of the local economy as you say, so if we're having roads why aren't we having a community-funded collection?) why do they have to be paved roads instead of compacted soil track maintainable using a split log drag? That kind of road is still very good compared to what they might be like at the moment, see this image from the wikipedia page I linked:


Merchants with loaded wagons carrying cargo can go down that road without fearing sinking. At the end of the day once the roads leading to Nesiwald are better than the average for the whole nation there will be diminishing returns because for a merchant on the other side of the country they still have to use the roads between where they are and where our superior roads start, and we can't fund a road network for the whole nation.

I would happily vote to build a canal system by ourselves even if the return period from the tolls on that was a lot longer than our other investments (~25 years or more, say), which would also get more merchants coming here and it seems like that could be potentially viable in the future (maybe if we get more political clout depending on how far away the waterfall section is, if it's outside the Nesiwald jurisdiction region) based on this action:

[ ] River Trade. The rivers leading up to Nesiwald are smaller than the great veins of water coursing across the flatter terrain down south, but they are still perfectly navigable by small boats. Occasionally someone will take a boat up or down the river carrying things or fishing. It's just that there are sections of rapids or small waterfalls between here and the great rivers in the south, necessitating procedures called 'portage' where the whole boat, contents and all, is carried over land past the river obstacle and then put back in the water. If you invest in a few river trading trips you could earn some money and encourage future trade.
Cost: 3 Profit invested for six months. Difficulty: 35. Risk some money to gain more and encourage Nesiwald trade. Cannot take this action during Winter.
 
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