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House of the Dragon premiering August 21

reignonyrparade said:
Honestly I genuinely get the impression in FaB that for the most part, the perception that the great council had set a precedent didn't motivate people to oppose rhaenyra, people who were opposed to rhaenyra were motivated to say that the great council had created a precedent.

(And incidentally the fact that they were arguing from that great council instead of thousands of years of andal inheritance strongly implies that viserys absolutely had the authority to name rhaenyra his heir over andal inheritance, and everyone recognized it. So they needed something they could argue was even stronger than both, even if it didn't really make sense to be stronger than both.)
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It does say something distinctive that no one directly told Viserys "No you can't kept Rhaenyra as your Heir, it goes against precedent." to his face, like he could have refused but no one on the greens even tried to argue with him. The most we got was Vaemond trying to argue the King could not decide matters in Driftmark


toxinvictory said:
Honestly I didn't have a problem with the episode or how it's characterized Rhaenyra because in my mind Episode 3 continues a trend of "give Rhaenyra sympathetic-ish motives but show how she's loosing control - damaging her position and has her own share of bias".
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I agreee. I feel like they're laying the ground work for a specific character arc with Rhaenyra


I believe they're setting the stage for her eventual decline into something more akin to what we see in the later bits of the war in the books, more complex of course but there's certain things she is going to do like turning on the bastards out of paranoia because of the two betrayers is not something this Rhaenyra would do. What these episodes are establishing is that Rhaenyra realizes that unleashing Dragons is basically crossing the nuclear line and the damage will be beyond the pale so she's trying everything to avoid it even though we've fundmentally gone past the point where that could be stopped. So she's failing, and it's going to probably blow up in face. And Rhaenys, the one pushing her to handle things calmly and with as little violence as possible is going to be the first dragon rider to die. Alicent rejecting peace even when she knows she fucked up, her attempt blowing up in face probably, and Rhaenys death is all going to convince her that peace isn't possible she must commit to war.

And then, probably early season 3, she's going to lose Jace, her heir. She was enraged when Luke died but she was able to process her grief and Daemon's screw up ultimately pretty much snapped her back to her senses. That won't happen when Jace dies.
 
Delirium said:
The show seems to have broadly adopted the eminently defensible position that much of the specifics of Fire and Blood is completely discardable as nonsense. I tend to believe that this is what Martin was going for originally and he just massively overestimated his audience's ability to juggle the idea properly between the different narratives. A lot of people look at three different versions of an event in Fire and Blood and think one of these must be the one that happened and the point of the book is working out which one. I don't think that's the point though, I think you're meant to discard all three and make up a story in your head that fits the barest factual details and can account for the stories told after. House of the Dragon engages fully into this practice of narrativised psychohistory by enlarging propagandised caricatures to human characters.
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This is 100% my take on the show and it's part of why I like it so much. This doesn't feel like it's confirming or retconning the material in F&B, it feels like it's in a dialogue with it. The question of "what really happened" in any history is always predicated on the information you have available. It doesn't take into account the stuff that never made it into the history books at all.

Also, GRRM's take on Targaryen history is clearly influenced by Roman history and a recurring pattern in Roman history is that any woman with significant political power is treated like an evil stepmother, sometimes a whore, sometimes a witch. It is impossible to know which of them were actually villains and which are just depicted as such by a deeply misogynistic society. Rhaenyra, Alicent, Mysaria, Alyse, Nettles, they all follow this pattern in F&B to one degree or another.
 
The episode was worth it for those two moments, the one when Rhaenyra realized what Viserys had actually said to Alicent and why she suddenly turned around in favour of Aegon, and when Alicent realized she'd made a mistake and doubled down rather than admit it and try and stop what's going to happen soon

It was almost certainly too late anyway but now any fleeting chance is gone, the dragons are going to dance

The knowledge that all of this started for no reason isn't going to help Rhaenyras mental state when things start getting even worse later on
 
Darth Invictus said:
The episode was worth it for those two moments, the one when Rhaenyra realized what Viserys had actually said to Alicent and why she suddenly turned around in favour of Aegon, and when Alicent realized she'd made a mistake and doubled down rather than admit it and try and stop what's going to happen soon

It was almost certainly too late anyway but now any fleeting chance is gone, the dragons are going to dance

The knowledge that all of this started for no reason isn't going to help Rhaenyras mental state when things start getting even worse later on
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I think a big thing in this is both Alicent and Rhaenyra overestimate how important Alicent is in all this. Cause Alicent could not have stopped Otto from organizing his coup without some extreme actions against her own family (smuggling Aegon out of King's Landing and actively going against the entire coup) that even if Alicent did not have the self-justification from Viserys last words, I do not believe she would be willing to do. And after putting the Crown on Aegon's head, there was no getting him to willingly remove it.
 
Gurm on the show version of Blood & Cheese:

"The only part of the show that is drawing criticism is the conclusion of the Blood and Cheese storyline. Which ending was powerful, I thought… a gut punch, especially for viewers who had never read FIRE & BLOOD. For those who had read the book, however…

Well, there's a lot of be said about that, but this is not the place for me to say it. The issues are too complicated. Somewhere down the line, I will do a separate post about all the issues raised by Blood and Cheese… and Maelor the Missing. There's a lot to say.

For the nonce, I will just say that I really really liked "Rhaenyra the Cruel." I liked it in London the first time I saw it, and I liked it even more on second watching."
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Arthur Frayn said:
choice between "illegitimate but radical prince Aegon vs. legitimate but tyrannical Rhaenyra" would be actually kind've boring and cliche, IMO. It's much more interesting that (rules lawyering by the Greens aside) really no side is right, or wrong, and ultimately they're going to burn the realm to the ground to satisfy some petty squabbles. I mean, Criston's so twisted up about catching feelings for Rhaenyra that he's basically become the Westerosi version of Marc Antony (I don't think it's a coicidence he swapped the feathery locks for the Caesar cut).

There's a reason the Dance ends with Cregan Stark just sitting down and going "Okay, I'm going to say that these people are traitors, these people aren't, and now let's all agree to never do this again, okay?"

*EDIT* Also the "You will die here" girl is Nettles, right? That whole sequence was a trip but I loved the shot of Daemon with the God's Eye in the background.

Now! That's What I Call Foreshadowing!
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The thing is I don't feel they have done a good job showing both sides as being in the wrong. Rhaenyra has done nothing so far that would makes me think that with out the throne stealing, having her son killed and her supporters attacked she would have been a bad Ruler instead of just a okay one.

They have clearly showed all the Greens as hypocrites to one degree or anther except for Helena who is a Cassandra like character disconnected for the world a lot of the time that people don't know how to deal with at times. You can't have the latter events of the dance like Corlys's betrayal of Rhaenyra be something anyone outside the show thinks is okay if the characters aren't show as being capable of crazy things. Having the stuff at Tumbleton make sense is already going to be hard in may mind already with what they have done with Hugh the Hammer having a sick kid to as a way to make watchers sympathetic to him.


Alys Rivers is the person who tells Demond that, Nettles may not even show up in the T.V.

Also just because the reasons for events in F&B are disputed does not change the fact their is agreement in all the of the Named sources about the events that happen which the show changes of ignores and will continue to ignore. What is the point of Davos Blackwood taking up screen time from actual important for the Dance members of his family when he dies 3 minutes later?
 
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Stewart9 said:
The thing is I don't feel they have done a good job showing both sides as being in the wrong
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I don't think both sides are supposed to be in the wrong at this point. This war will harden Rhaenyra and make her worse but I think it's pretty clear at the moment the Blacks overall are in the right, which is fine
 
Teen Spirit said:
I don't think both sides are supposed to be in the wrong at this point. This war will harden Rhaenyra and make her worse but I think it's pretty clear at the moment the Blacks overall are in the right, which is fine
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Well then they have a lot of work to do to make things like Corlys helping Aegon feed his sister to his dragon and then turning his cloak again and murdering Aegon by poison while still having people like the Blackwoods who think poison is a cowards tool not wanting Cregan to take his head of work in this version of the story.
 
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Rhaenyra's strategic "sense" continues to be her own worst ally here, and I kind of like it, though I don't think we're supposed to take that interpretation away.

If Rhaenys (Best Queen! RIP) had had Rhaenyra or Daemon or even Luke? As backup here I think the blacks could've won the war.
Also, I really want someone to give a speech along the lines of "Aegon's 'right' to the Seven Kingdoms was dragonfire." Some realpolitik would be nice. Closest we get is Alicent, and I don't think we're supposed to like her position.
 
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Undead Martyr said:
Rhaenyra's strategic "sense" continues to be her own worst ally here, and I kind of like it, though I don't think we're supposed to take that interpretation away.

If Rhaenys (Best Queen! RIP) had had Rhaenyra or Daemon or even Luke? As backup here I think the blacks could've won the war.
Also, I really want someone to give a speech along the lines of "Aegon's 'right' to the Seven Kingdoms was dragonfire." Some realpolitik would be nice. Closest we get is Alicent, and I don't think we're supposed to like her position.
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Daemon did tell Rhaenys that any one dragon taking on Vagar was likely to die even if they won the fight so her deciding to attack Vagar straight up instead of Vagar attacking as Sunfire and Mayles were locked in combat taking all three dragons into the Earth was a dumb move. Aegon and Sunfire were down so she could have pulled back from the situation the show gave us but instead she decides to attack the biggest Dragon outside of maybe Cannibal from the front instead of trying to get above her with superior speed.

In the book she saw both of them appear at the same time and went to try and take Aegon out quickly which she almost did before Vagar barrels into both of the other dragons.
 
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Undead Martyr said:
Rhaenyra's strategic "sense" continues to be her own worst ally here, and I kind of like it, though I don't think we're supposed to take that interpretation away.

If Rhaenys (Best Queen! RIP) had had Rhaenyra or Daemon or even Luke? As backup here I think the blacks could've won the war.
Also, I really want someone to give a speech along the lines of "Aegon's 'right' to the Seven Kingdoms was dragonfire." Some realpolitik would be nice. Closest we get is Alicent, and I don't think we're supposed to like her position.
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Weirdly enough I think Aegon does deserve some credit here:

Considering that things were really not looking too well for Aemond and Vaghar for a moment there, even after Meleys presumably took some damage fighting Sunfire at close quarter, I would argue that if Aegon had listened to his mom and stayed home there is a very good chance Vaghar would have at least taken damages similar to Sunfire, and taken a similar long time to recover. If that happens it's game over for the Greens right there, or at least it is as soon as the Blacks bite the bullet and begin to recruit dragon seeds.

He definitely isnt the sharpest tool in the shed and does even worse in regard to likability but this season establish that he can have the right instinct politically and militarily once in a while./SPOILER]

I also liked the little scenes of affection between the dragons and their rider. It really underscores the tragedy of what we all know is coming.
 
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Undead Martyr said:
Rhaenyra's strategic "sense" continues to be her own worst ally here, and I kind of like it, though I don't think we're supposed to take that interpretation away.
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Ehh

Last Week's episode made clear that the Blacks had scouted out Cole's army decently and there was no implication any of the Green Dragons were anywhere close by, the show makes it really clear Cole put in a good deal of effort to hide Vhagar. Plus if you assume that, at most the enemy is going to only send out one dragon and even that's unlikely (And that isn't unreasonable, if Aegon and Aemond had both died there the war would be over) than Rhaenys and Meleys are probably your best bet. Like Aemond would have the advantage here but I could easily see Rhaenys coming away with a win
 
It's more that both sides were very passive, but Rhaenrya especially took until roughly this episode to commit to doing much. This isn't a bad thing, mind, given Rhaenyra's grief and justifiable reluctance to unleash fire and blood, but it does speak to the lack of military thinking to the conflict.

Part of the reason I'm sympathetic to Aegon is that he actually wasn't entirely wrong to act, even if he did so as a drunken reckless teenager rather than a military commander weighing necessary risks and opportunities. Yes, his side needs to be more careful due to having fewer dragons- Vhagar is very much a "dragon in being" that can't be used recklessly- but especially since Aemond is blatantly "scheming" behind his brother's back Aegon showing the flag in a crucial theater isn't necessarily a bad thing. And really, some dragon needed to go out to the Riverlands- Daemon was already there, and Rhaenys or whoever likely to respond.
 
Rook's Rest really shows how HOTD has upped GOT's game in showing battle scenes that look realistic for a medieval fantasy show. Varied levies with varied heraldry and armor, archers and crossbows, it just feels so much better than GOT's armies of mostly identically dressed dudes (Stannis' Blackwater army, innocent).

Another banger episode.

I was also glad to see Willem Blackwood from S1 again, luckily I had subtitles on or I wouldn't have heard the mention of his lord being Benjicott Blackwood through Daemon's fugue state.
 
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Criston Cole touching that dead soldier only for his skeleton to crumble into ash is some Dark Souls ass shit. As if last episode wasn't Daemon going into a dungeon for the first time.
 
I continue building all my hype up for Godseyebowl. Yeah the Fall of King's Landing will be great too, but they're really doing a lot of subtle but noticeable stuff already setting up how Daemon's going to kill Aemond, I think. Note how when Rhaenys commits to the pass at Aemond she tightens her saddle straps; in some sense she's "held back" and restraining herself with self-preservation which you can't hold onto against a force of nature like the Vhagar/Aemond pair. So Daemon going on this weird haunting/ego death trip as his arc for the rest of the series makes sense to get him to the point where he knows the one way to let go and flip the tables so he can be the one to drive a sword through that jeweled eye socket.
 
This one was inevitably much weaker. Very much connective tissue.

Dragonseeds, the Eyrie, mention of Cregan, the Lions on the move, Daemon in the Riverlands...

Think this season ends wirh a Black victory in the Riverlands. We may well wait for KL till next season, then I guess Dragonpit and God's Eye Season 4?

Did Tumbleton happen after KL fell or before?
 
So many meetings this week. HOTD pursuing the Andor ISB meeting demographic hard, which I love.

Daemon continues to spectacularly fail in the Riverlands. Have a feeling he's going to kill Willem Blackwood to get right with the angry Riverlords. Would work in removing him so they can bring Benji in.

Hearing a lot of hubbub about leak alert:
Nettles being deleted and Rhaena taking Sheepstealer who is in the Vale

No idea if its true.
 
Honestly I laughed when everyone on the Small Council basically dismissed Alicent as the Regent. Like what exactly do you offer to the war effort? Doesn't feel good that what you wanted Aegon to do is basically happening to you now. Do nothing and let the advisors do the work.
 
mrsean22 said:
Honestly I laughed when everyone on the Small Council basically dismissed Alicent as the Regent. Like what exactly do you offer to the war effort? Doesn't feel good that what you wanted Aegon to do is basically happening to you now. Do nothing and let the advisors do the work.
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Goddamn was that scene well done, such an interesting choice to dolly in on Alicent as she comes to grips with being facepalmed to the side and she has to sit there as Aemond makes dumb decision after dumb decision.

I did like Cole very clearly having like giga-PTSD over seeing Dragons cut loose, I actually do kind've buy him voting against Alicent out of a warped desire to spare her from being the Hard (Wo)Man Making Hard Decisions.
 
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