Hereafter [Worm x Fate/Grand Order]

Guys. The story starts in August, 2015. They're currently going into November. Of the three months it's been since the story began for them, about a third of it was spent in one Singularity or another. After Orleans, she spent most of the time until Septem training the twins. After Septem, a large portion of her focus was on Olga's recovery, so she didn't do as much training with the twins, and Waver and Aife took over their magecraft lessons and physical conditioning respectively. After Okeanos, they got a few days to relax and bring Emiya back, and then the Prison Tower happened, and now things are easing out of "we just had another minor crisis."


I hate to come out of lurking just to complain when I do by and large enjoy this story. It's just that the argument going on here is speaking to something that has been bothering me for a while.

I think the issue here is 100% about pacing. You go into detail about things the audience doesn't really care about, then keep the things we want to see in the background, which gives the impression of nothing happening. This last arc really drives that home. We just spent the prison arc watching Taylor do basically nothing. I realize that was the narrative point you were making but it doesn't change the fact that we spent 2 months of real time reading about nothing. Now that the arc is finally over, the first chapter we get is a party where nothing happens.

And then you say we are going into a "cool down" mini-arc, but a cool down from what? Nothing happened! I realize the characters need to de-stress from what was to them a traumatic incident, but from the readers point of view there is no tension to ease out of. At this point I think we are just bored.

But just because she takes an hour or two after breakfast to relax doesn't mean she isn't training at all.

This is certainly true, Taylor needs to eat, but we don't need to read about her eating. Some slice of life socializing is necessary between the action but there is simply too much of it. We are here for the magic, not parties. I think the story needs to focus more around the important details.
 
I think a lot of people read canon as Ritsuka being effective combatant vs. Phantasmal Beasts and Servants.
Because Shadow Summons were added to narrative of the game in Lost Belts (and even then they only mentioned only handful of times), and Shimousa manga is it's own thing.
So you have Ritsuka and Mash defeating loads of enemies on their own, and either Mash absurdly OP, or Ritsuka meaningful front-line participant in high-level combat.

I think for this story, if Taylor given more uptime on her Shadow summons with ability to better direct them, it be seen as her more directly contributing.
An issue with that is Mash's skill set is actually incredibly well tuned for protecting someone in battle lore-wise. She's actually much more powerful in lore than her gameplay would imply.

As far as canon ritsuka's combat effectiveness goes we see him protecting himself from a Roman soldier in...I think moonlight lost room? So he's at least able to match a trained mundane human of that era at least as far as self defense by septem. How much of that is his mystic codes augmenting him vs native ability is unknown though.

By the end of part 1 he wins a fistfight with Goetia's weakened self while wielding Mash's shield and the games don't have the supermode mystic code to excuse it like the movie did so he must be somewhat capable of at least very low level superhuman strength to wield Mash's shield in combat against a mage.

He also earns the rank of cause in the mage association at this point which presumes at least a very basic foundation in magecraft.

Then by part two he is shown to use gandr without a mystic code at all and can use the Shadow summons.

So being extremely generous he would probably be able to put up a fight against say Rin by the end of part 1 but has very low odds of actually beating her. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Whereas he might actually have the advantage by the start of part 2 especially with Shadow Summons being able to actually fight servants to some degree.

So he definitely isn't directly engaging wyvern or chimera directly before part 2 with any kind of regularity or confidence. But he can probably handle himself modestly well against mundane foes.
 
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Secondly, I don't know where in the world you're getting the idea that Ritsuka is now far stronger than Taylor "on every level." Because he went through a traumatic, transformative experience and came away surer of himself and somewhat more confident?
Taylor went through multiple traumatic, transformative experiences and came out progressively more broken each and every time.

Ritsuka went through a traumatic, transformative experience and came away surer of himself and somewhat more confident.
 
I don't know, I liked the party. I think it was a nice way of affirming what the side story chapters showing Ritsuka in the Prison Tower were building up re:him growing into his own as a Master. It was genuinely a sweet scene and didn't feel like it had some of the problems of repetitiveness that I touched on a little before (which tbh I'm kind of regretting bringing up in the first place, I feel like it was an unnecessarily jerkish post).

And, if I may, Cookiesndip, your complaints are getting to the point where I'm starting to wonder why you keep reading. If this story isn't fun for you, if it's not what you want it to be, then why do you keep disrupting the thread shouting about it? It's not healthy to repeatedly expose yourself to something that makes you this angry. For your own sake, I think you should stop.
 
Taylor beats them both in grand tactics due to her experience.
Factually false. Hate to break it to you, but a couple years practice doesn't eclipse a fucking Age of Heroes warrior princess (oh look, grand tactics) or Age of Heroes Three Kingdoms politician and military strategist (more grand tactics), both with decades of experience in terms of tactics and stategy, and bodies and minds that make most modern humans look like inept fools. Taylor has only spent like a very eventful year, and 2 years doing nothing in the Wards. She has no true training either. Sure, she's a complete and utter natural at tactics and strategy, and has become really good at it, but most of the heroes that have spent their entire lives on this sort of thing in a far bloodier era, and a Thinker she is not, so she's not even in the same ballpark as them in that respect at this point. Moreover they have grail-reinforced version of the skills they already had when alive, which already eclipses her own abilities by far, so Taylor is barely worth mentioning in the same sentence as Aife or Waver/Zhuge Liang.

Speaking of Zhuge/Waver, why the flying fuck hasn't he been using Discerning Eye? You'd think he'd be the one running all the training for everyone, considering.
Discerning Eye (A Rank): Unique skill. This skill did not originate from Zhuge Liang, but rather from El-Melloi II. A variant of Human Observation, this skill allows the user to tell the observed target how to maximize their full potential.
Oh look, another person who should have been accelerating Taylor's training, but barely even exists!

Maybe Scathach can do some dream training with her? She can help her train anything after all, and I can't see her not seeing Taylor as a true hero, I can only pray, given how disappointing things have gotten.
Wisdom of Dún Scáith (A+ Rank): The intellect of the abyss, acquired as a consequence of surpassing humanity, killing gods, and being left behind in the outside of the World. With the exception of those particular of certain heroes, almost all Skills can be displayed with a proficiency level of B~A Rank. Also, only towards those, she has recognized as true heroes, it is also possible to teach such Skills. During combat, a Skill that she often employs is the foresight of battle conditions by means of 'Clairvoyance'. Even in Ulster mythology, she often predicted the future with such foresight, even the final moments of her beloved pupil Cú Chulainn.[1][2]
 
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And, if I may, Cookiesndip, your complaints are getting to the point where I'm starting to wonder why you keep reading. If this story isn't fun for you, if it's not what you want it to be, then why do you keep disrupting the thread shouting about it? It's not healthy to repeatedly expose yourself to something that makes you this angry. For your own sake, I think you should stop.
I actually enjoyed it at a point, but for several of the last arcs, including the entirety of Okeanos (was Taylor even present? I can't remember) it's just been a downslide toward apathy for me due to how shittily the narrative treats Taylor, her capabilities, or even her character itself to the point where it's barely her own story, and there's so little of her canonical Weaver/Skitter self left, that without being explicitly told, I would never have keyed her as Taylor at all, maybe pre-canon Taylor, but absolutely not post-GM. The fic was good and can be made so again if Fawkes is willing to pull something similar to when AEoSaS got absurdly bad and actually take the critique to heart and stop railroading his characters to fit some arbitrary plan no matter how grotesquely the characters have to be mutilated and how hard they have to be restricted and lobotomized to follow it, going down with the ship until it's way too late to change anything and the audience loses all their patience with the fic entirely. Something, I might add, something that has been happening progressively more over time, judging by the quantity of complaints over time.

It's just disappointing. The writing is still technically good, but that's as much as I can say positively right now. I want Taylor back, not this SI that barely is related to her. Somehow she's been reduced to nearly a clone of canon Ritsuka, despite apparently originating from post-GM and and being an entirely different character. She may as well not be from the Wormverse by now, her entire ethos, attitude, drive, determination, etc. seems to have been wholly ripped out and replaced, her capabilities are still weaker than she was as Skitter and is, as per usual, is entirely useless on every level. She has fuckall agency due to being a glorified cheerleader, any which she does have, she never actually applies in any way shape or form.

I want to go back to France when she tried to fight a wyvern. At least she felt more like herself then instead of the narrative disrespecting her, and Worm so utterly.

Scáthach hasn't been summoned yet, and Aífe is already training Taylor.
Didn't stop Scathach from contacting Aife/Taylor before in Chaldea. Since Aife seemingly had her training capabilities surgically removed, Scathach can make Taylor actually useful and pertinent.

I mean, right now, she's a glorified spectator and battery that tells her servants to do things they'd already do, and are all much better at tactics and strategy than she could ever be, and occasionally uses useless bugs to do nothing, or at best, slightly distract someone.

Christ, Ritsuka's probably going to wind up several magnitudes stronger than her by the end of this travesty, maybe Taylor will get bug-themed versions of shadow servants, just to thoroughly homogenize the two of them, what a fucking disappointment. Taylor is the main character, yet none of her actions matter at all, and she herself has zero agency or capacity to change anything, and she can't do anything at all herself. Everything about her has been gutted, and the narrative treated everything about her as a problem to be solved, so she become Ritsuka v2 in truth.

Make Taylor actually feel like herself again. Get her personally into a fight with a phantasmal beast again somehow, make her disobey shitty orders from Olga because potential risk is never a goddamn reason for an IC Taylor to abandon an ally, make her more opinionated and driven, far more independent, give her an actual inferiority complex like she had in France that just disappeared somehow, and so forth. It's not hard, she's just bland and hollow right now, barely reminiscent of Taylor, and has been heavily warped for reasons, it's why I call her a SI, because she basically is at this point.
 
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Speaking of Zhuge/Waver, why the flying fuck hasn't he been using Discerning Eye? You'd think he'd be the one running all the training for everyone, considering.
How do you know he hasn't been using it? Maximizing gains is a process not a single action.
The first step to maximizing their potential is likely to get them to a certain baseline before specilzed training can actually be done, which is exactly what is happening with them.
 
How do you know he hasn't been using it? Maximizing gains is a process not a single action.
The first step to maximizing their potential is likely to get them to a certain baseline before specilzed training can actually be done, which is exactly what is happening with them.
Well, it's not like we've seen Taylor train for like 3 singularities, and she seems to piss away all her time doing nothing. I'm sorry, but she should be making ample progress with the aid of heroic servants, one of which should be supernaturally effective at training if she wasn't arbitrarily crippled, and Taylor was already fit as fuck, and her fundamentals were good, for obvious reasons. It's at A-rank too for Zhuge Liang, it should be also be supernaturally efficient at drawing out potential, as an A-rank ability such as Charisma A is bordering mind control and is the level of fucking Iskander, for instance.
 
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I'm not going to give a review of the past ark because I feel Karyis gave a pretty good explanation of what was right and wrong with it a couple of weeks back. My problem is mainly with the criticism because it has mainly gone of the direction of what Taylor can or should do, and frankly speaking as some else pointed out previously, it gives the image of people being too spoiled by fanfic Taylor. By munchkin, altpower, memetic Taylor and out all the critics from this angle there's been one that's particularly bothered me.

I'm sorry for singling you out but from the way your comments for the past month have gone from critical to passive-aggressive to outright mockingly hostile, and frankly demeaning, I feel it needs to be said. People already asked you this before and clearly deserves repeating:

Cookiesndip, why are you still here?

It's been pointed out multiple times by multiple people already that the direction the story is going with for Taylor is not the one you want in the long run, the idea of Taylor learning to not always take charge of everything alone, to trust that others can either pull their own weight or even deal with the situation alone if or when required, that she doesn't need to take control of everything, is an anathema to you, something akin to, in your own words, "becoming a bystander" or "sending her back to the kitchen", you've made that clear multiple times already. All while completely ignoring that it's been the objective from the get go, from multiple statements by the author to the damn foreword at the beginning of the story and that it was one of the main selling points to a lot of people here.

People keep bringing the examples like Rin and Shirou vs servants, while ignoring the context behind those fights. From Rin being a much more talented magus with years under her belt coming from a relatively (for Japan) important lineage, to the battles with Archer and Gilgamesh, ignoring that Archer's battle was one of ideals, where he was hoping more to break Shirou's and was handicapped by not having a master and being exhausted after his battle with Lancer and manifesting UBW, to Gilgamesh constantly underestimating everyone till the last second due to his arrogance. Taylor only had 2 years to learn all she could about magecraft, where she probably spent the majority of the first one recovering her mental faculties and relearning her motor functions not to mention the whole psychological issues of losing her home and family, and since she was Marie´s personal choice, supplemented with only what she could bring to her. And learning all she can from Aife or El-Melloi II doesn't mean she'll be ready to throw down with servants or contribute beyond what a master can and should do with the short amount of time they have to fix the incineration, no matter how talented the 2 teachers are, even the twins are just learning the basics.

You keep bringing Gold Morning and everything Taylor learned through it, while ignoring that by the end of it Taylor was arguably at her worst, at her most distrusting, at her most controlling. Was it necessary? Maybe. Did the situation force her hand? Arguably yes, especially considering how everyone else was acting, though that a whole discussion rabbit hole of it's own. Did it lead to one best possible outcomes? Absolutely. But it also pushed some of Taylors worse buttons, leading her to a path where she arguably lost everything, friends and compatriots leaving them and herself with emotional holes that may never heal, her home, even her mind albeit temporarily, everything except her father. Are those the lessons she should be taking for this story? Of excelling but taking all burdens and eventually sacrificing yourself, abandoning everything and everyone you know for their sake?

But you know what? At the end none of that matters because it's a fanfic. All these interpretations of Taylor don't matter, because that's what they are "interpretations". So, what if this Taylor is OOC as you put it, "Taylor in name only" fics are a dime in a dozen in both SB, SV and everywhere else. You and others keep bringing Ryuugi, but at the end of the day no matter how much you agree with him, no matter how much you feel his interpretation of Taylor is the correct one, it's just that, another interpretation. The only person that can tell you correct canon Taylor is Wildbow himself and people even love to disagree with him based on what they read, whenever Worm itself or just fanfics, and how they felt about it. I know it can feel frustrating to read a story with a character you like and feel like they not being given what they deserve, but constantly complaining to the author every update despite being told the direction of the story, to the point actively insulting the author by calling his interpretation of Taylor an SI! or "Ritsuka with a different name" because it doesn't align with yours is just petty, childish and generally just a dick move.

I hate that at this point I'm basically just telling you "Don't like don't read", but what else can I or anyone else say to you? You don't like what's essentially a core premise of this story and heavily disagree with it, but at this point it's been stated, it's been shown, that no matter what else the author changes, that remains. That the story is not going to go the direction you want. So why continue reading, and worse whine about it? At this point you're just torturing yourself. Yourself and everyone else by constantly bringing down the mood.

So, I ask again, why are you still here?

One last thing to add…

Taylor went through multiple traumatic, transformative experiences and came out progressively more broken each and every time.

Ritsuka went through a traumatic, transformative experience and came away surer of himself and somewhat more confident.

This is cherry-picking. You cannot compare all of what that Taylor when through with just Ritsuka's experience in the prison tower, hell you can barely compare it to his experiences in the past 4 singularities. Sure, technically the odds where high since he was on a time limit and if defeated he would have been trapped, but that's no different than the aforementioned singularities and in the end, he didn't lose anyone or was injured in any way or had his ideals truly challenged. Even Dantes's note ended up with a hopespot in the form of "Wait and hope". I would hardly call that traumatic. Plus, Taylor's experiences as Skitter alone despite the trauma ended up making her surer and more confident of herself.

I want to go back to France when she tried to fight a wyvern. At least she felt more like herself then instead of the narrative disrespecting her, and Worm so utterly.

P.s: I wrote all of this before your last response to Karyis but frankly that just emphasizes my point because, based on that response, you haven't enjoyed the story since Orleans.
 
The fic was good and can be made so again if Fawkes is willing to pull something similar to when AEoSaS got absurdly bad and actually take the critique to heart
Might I remind you that that whole situation also severely hurtful to James' mental health? Because I pretty clearly remember him mentioning that. There were so many complaints it felt like borderline harassment, and in effect it was. He took a hiatus on AEoSaS because of it to take care of himself. So, no, I don't think that's something that needs to happen again.

Atomicbarracuda already spelled it out for you, but I want to reiterate since I also don't feel your response changes anything: you're not enjoying the fic, you're making yourself needlessly angry over something that isn't going to change and has been here since day one, and you have no reason to keep reading anymore. Unless the negativity is the point for you, in which case I'd like to politely ask you to sit back for a moment, ask yourself why that is, and then change that by stepping away from the thread. Because again, continually engaging with something you know only makes you angry and upset isn't healthy.

I apologize if that sounds condescending. But it's legitimately frustrating that you keep ignoring everyone when its pointed out to you that this story isn't ever going to be what you want it to be in favor of yelling at the author to do something he stated Day 1 that he isn't going to do. There's no point in keeping this up. So please, stop.
 
I don't spotlight every action Taylor does every day, and a lot of her routine is just glossed over. She's still training, she's still working out, she's still keeping in shape — but there are limits to how far even Taylor goes and how far she can go. The runes thing is brought up in a few chapters, where I reiterate that learning runes is a lot like learning a new language. Taylor has an advantage in that she has someone there who knows them well enough to teach her, but she's also at a massive disadvantage in that runic magecraft isn't a spoken language. She is not going to be making huge leaps and bounds in the span of about a month's time, and she can't speed up her learning by immersing herself in the language the way you can in real life. She's trying to learn hieroglyphics that can blow her to pieces if she does them wrong. Of course it's going slow.

Apropos of that, Taylor is not her memetic self. She does not spend every waking moment preparing, she doesn't fill her entire day with training and self-betterment. She didn't in canon either. Whenever there wasn't some crisis going on or some issue that needed her constant attention, she took breaks, she went out shopping with her friends, she read books in her off time. As part of the Wards, more of the latter than the former. She's a human, not a machine, and I don't recall if it's ever brought up in Worm, but I would think Brian, at least, would have told her how detrimental it can be to overtrain yourself.

But just because she takes an hour or two after breakfast to relax doesn't mean she isn't training at all.

Guys. The story starts in August, 2015. They're currently going into November. Of the three months it's been since the story began for them, about a third of it was spent in one Singularity or another. After Orleans, she spent most of the time until Septem training the twins. After Septem, a large portion of her focus was on Olga's recovery, so she didn't do as much training with the twins, and Waver and Aife took over their magecraft lessons and physical conditioning respectively. After Okeanos, they got a few days to relax and bring Emiya back, and then the Prison Tower happened, and now things are easing out of "we just had another minor crisis."

First of all, this "SI!Taylor" thing needs to die. Violently. In a fire. Screaming and yelling and gasping for air, because it was vaguely funny when it was made as a joke, but it's insulting when you use it seriously. Secondly, I don't know where in the world you're getting the idea that Ritsuka is now far stronger than Taylor "on every level." Because he went through a traumatic, transformative experience and came away surer of himself and somewhat more confident? Because he bonded with the Servant who was stuck with him throughout the whole thing? I don't have any idea where you're getting that from those.

Thirdly, it's addressed obliquely in this chapter, but there isn't much she can do to prepare for the London, primarily because she hasn't even been told yet that the next Singularity is in London, let alone the era it's going to be taking place in, and let's not even get started on the year. The only thing the team is aware of about the next Singularity so far is that it's taking place in southern England. That's it. Considering Britain has about 2000 years of history on the shortest end, what do you expect her to study? The history of a single period in those 2000 years is something that scholars can spend lifetimes learning and studying, and Taylor isn't stupid. She knows better than to assume she can cram 200 years of history into her head in any meaningful way in just a few weeks, let alone 10x that much. She's waiting on Da Vinci and the others to let her know what era she needs to be researching.

I'm fairly sure that much is mentioned, if not here, then at some point in the next few chapters. Solomon, however, is very specifically called out in this one, because Marisbury had to be a dick and hide all the juiciest stuff about his HGW murder buddy, and Taylor has already exhausted what little is left in Chaldea's records. As she mentions.

Fourthly and lastly, nothing super exciting happened this chapter because nothing super exciting was supposed to happen. Three cooldown chapters after the Prison Tower. The whole point is for everyone — readers and characters alike — to take one, gigantic breath and let it out real slow. Ease out of the tension. Because after they're done, we're winding up for London. This is 122 (CXXII). 128 (CXXVIII) is the official start of the next Singularity. Technically earlier, since one of those chapters between now and then is an interlude showing the beginning of the London Singularity.

My contempt for readers who not only like "Memetic Taylor" but also harass authors who refuse to pander to them in that regard is immeasurable. James, you've done an incredible job with Hereafter. It's literally the first ever work I became a patreon supporter for. Don't pay any attention to those idiots.
 
Taylor would be TRYING to find something to leverage. That isn't up for discussion, it's part of her core character! She fought fucking Leviathan with bugs because she couldn't stand to sit around doing nothing. 1v1 against an Endbringer she should be about as useful as a cock ring on a eunuch, but she was out there anyway.

This is especially egregious because she was in character before! She's inexplicably been replaced by this thing that does nothing. We keep getting scenes of people eating in the cafeteria and none of her working to save the goddamn world. We literally have a perfect blueprint for how Taylor reacts in this situation! This whole story is a more drawn-out version of the days leading up to Gold Morning, the world is actively in fucking peril and if there is even the slightest shred of who Taylor used to be in this decrepit husk she would be clawing at every possible advantage. As it stands outside of being a battery and playing overwatch Taylor has absolutely nothing to offer to the team that isn't outclassed by any servant you care to name and that should be driving her up a fucking wall.

People keep saying that learning from Aife wouldn't make her able to take on Servants? Real question: why the hell does that matter? What if being able to throw a Gaelic haymaker is the difference between victory and the end of the fucking world? She'd be learning it anyway! Out of a sense of self-betterment if nothing else. The woman can teach magical martial arts or whatever the hell that actually is, Taylor should be all over that like flies on shit. Come on now.

PLEASE crib from the actual source material when referencing how Taylor Hebert would act in the face of an imminent apocalypse. It's right there.

Like I don't want Meme Taylor. I want Taylor who has literally anything in common with canon besides her name. This is not it. Saying "she knows how to have downtime" is not an agument against the assertion that she isn't doing anything ever. Even failed attempts to make a difference would be exciting at this point. Maybe she can't learn from Aife because *handwave*? That's still better than what we have now, as it would show she's still willing to TRY and fight the hurricane.

My contempt for readers who not only like "Memetic Taylor" but also harass authors who refuse to pander to them in that regard is immeasurable. James, you've done an incredible job with Hereafter. It's literally the first ever work I became a patreon supporter for. Don't pay any attention to those idiots.

My contempt for commenters who boil an entire argument down to a single bastardized bulletpoint so they can limp-wristedly waive it away with a pithy comment is equally beyond measurement. Probably shouldn't pay any attention to the kind of people who do this instead of arguing in good faith, but this one pays the bills so I guess that's that.
 
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Factually false. Hate to break it to you, but a couple years practice doesn't eclipse a fucking Age of Heroes warrior princess (oh look, grand tactics) or Age of Heroes Three Kingdoms politician and military strategist (more grand tactics), both with decades of experience in terms of tactics and stategy, and bodies and minds that make most modern humans look like inept fools.
You kind of missed my point. I didn't say that they were better or that Taylor was better. Aife is good as a warrior princess, but her skills as a fighter are her most valued asset. Waver is obviously a great tactician given that he's the host to Zhuge Liang, but he is also a Lord of the Clocktower and thus he is better suited to magecraft lessons. Taylor, meanwhile, had her stint as a warlord in the bay, regularly views and with a global POV thanks to her swarm, and coordinated an ENTIRE PLANET'S CAPES in a single impossible battle that is almost certainly on the level of these big shots. All I'm saying is that she can teach.
Taylor would be TRYING to find something leverage. That isn't up for discussion, it's part of her core character! She fought fucking Leviathan with bugs because she couldn't stand to sit around doing nothing. 1v1 against an Endbringer she should be about as useless as a cock ring on a eunuch, but she was out there anyway.
Ironically... A lot of these types of complaints would be gone if the daily quests were a part of the story. Like I could totally imagine Taylor hitting those dailies for Materials and food. Just going into Minor singularities for no reason then to help the crew. Throw in the Simulator being broken, Da Vinci's hands being tied, and the time dilation within singularities leaving no time for repairs and the main Chaldea crew basically spends a large amount of time sitting on their hands waiting.

Frankly, this is the chickens coming home to roost. I say it all the time, not on here specifically, but EVERYTHING in FGO is canon. The daily quests, the missions, the free quests, all of it. And cutting them out requires either it happening off screen, (Such as the MHA/FGO crossover does.) or it keeps the downtime between singularities/events to a chapter or two at most.
 
Mm, I said what I wanted to say about the pacing of the story back when the crisis was going on, so I'm just going to add:

Uuuh. This is a fanfic. People, chill. Literally no interpretation of Taylor in any work other than Worm is canon. Of course the author of the current fic is going to take liberties. Of course his Taylor wouldn't resemble Wildbow's Taylor in details.

So the question stands, whether this Taylor derivates so completely and unwholesomely from this image of a control freak who bullied a god to death, and if so, whether it even matters. God, I've read so many fics that took themselves completely seriously where Taylor was a teenage-shaped podium for the author's long rant against everything they think is wrong about Worm, that I just don't have any expectations on that front whatsoever, though as I said, I do still have preferences.

You can say it's character assassination, I say it's character development, tomato tomato.

And also. Lol, who is this Ryuugi person anyway? No actual offense to Ryuugi intended, I've read some of his works, they are pretty good, but we, the Worm fandom, regularly ignore Wildbow's own interpretation of his own goddamn work, why should someone else be given the benefit of authoritative opinion and deem his interpretation of Taylor's character prevalent, when again again, we don't give that privilege to the freaking guy who started this thing in the first place.


To be clear, this isn't meant to disparage people who provide criticism, maybe actually valid, about the pacing of the story or agency of the character. It's meant to delineate borders: if you dislike this Taylor, dislike her for her ostensible passivity and unwillingness to sacrifice everything on the altar of self-improvement, not because she doesn't fulfill the nebulous criteria of who 'Taylor' is. She's a lot of things even in canon, and she's way, way more in fandom.
 
To add onto to the Rune discussion, beyond being in a sense hieroglyphs, they're equally magecraft constructs (in runestones) that can be comparable to Magic Crests as a simplified form, in the function of being engraved with Mysteries, and presumably programable to an extent of external, or internal triggers. Though I'll admit it has been quite some time since I've double checked that source.

Modern Runes, at least from what I can tell wiki-wise, are much more suited to enhancements of or alterations to the self or upon items, akin to reinforcement but from a distinct angle, aside from filling the target with magical energy, and occasionally sees usage as disposable weapons analogous to a grenade or firebomb.
 
I want to go back to France when she tried to fight a wyvern. At least she felt more like herself then instead of the narrative disrespecting her, and Worm so utterly.
You mean when QA reconnected and dosed her with so many brain chemicals that she literally got high, ran laughing at a wyvern with violence in her heart, and nearly got killed because wyverns aren't Lung (not that going Leeroy Jenkins on Lung wouldn't have have gotten her killed as well, but the wyvern had more mystery).
I think it's amusing that Taylor actually acting like her canon self when not ass deep in Shit Creek during a disaster is "being James' SI-OC" (and having known the guy since before he ever touched Worm content I can pretty safely tell you he's not writing Taylor how he would be acting), but Taylor acting like she just hit a triple off a crack pipe and munchkinning 48-7 is somehow her true canon self.
Dude, I'm gonna take it a step up from everybody else. You need to not only take a break from this fic, but Worm fics in general. Get off the Fanon gas for a while, and get reacquainted with the source material. You're not being constructive, or even neutral, you're just insulting the Author and pissing off the rest of us readers. You being here doesn't make you happy, and it doesn't make us. Go be happier elsewhere.
As it stands outside of being a battery and playing overwatch Taylor has absolutely nothing to offer to the team that isn't outclassed by any servant you care to name and that should be driving her up a fucking wall.
Jesus Christ it's not like people haven't spent the entire arc complaining about her doing exactly this. Now you want more of it?
@James D. Fawkes just ignore the thread critics for a bit. Right now they're making demands in a mobius strip.
 
Maybe I'm going against the grain here, but I really liked this chapter. Yes, there's been some problems with tell-dont-show and railroading overall, but this specific chapter? It was fun seeing everyone decompress, servants getting into servant shenanigens, seeing everyone interact. We could clearly see how everyone was affected by the last few days, people were bonding and connecting, and you could clearly see the relationships grow. It's been fun. And Mash's swimming lessons have this wonderfull undertone of tragedy to them.
 
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Jesus Christ it's not like people haven't spent the entire arc complaining about her doing exactly this. Now you want more of it?
@James D. Fawkes just ignore the thread critics for a bit. Right now they're making demands in a mobius strip.

Maybe ignore some of the thread critic critics for a bit, their thoughts are trapped in a Klein bottle and all we're getting is the displaced air as they enter and never leave.

The problem is that she's been stewing about this but hasn't fucking done anything to rectify it. Or even TRIED! Make the fucking attempt you useless lump! Do something! Like... on screen! Where we can fucking see it!

Maybe I'm going against the grain here, but I relly liked this chapter. Yes, there's been some problems with tell-dont-show and railroading overall, but this specific chapter? It was fun seeing everyone decompress, servants getting into servant shenanigens, seeining everyone interact. We could clearly see how everyone was affected by the last few days, people were bonding and connecting, and you could clearly see the relationships grow. It's been fun. And Mash's swimming lessons have this wonderfull undertone of tragedy to them.

Most of the chapters I consider a problem are fine by themselves, and this one is no exception. If they were accompanied by other chapters that actually show Taylor doing things of value outside of a singularity, chapters like this would be totally unobjectionable! The issue is we get this chapter after an arc where Taylor did. Nothing. And yes that was part of the purpose of this mini-arc, that Taylor was put into a position where she was mostly helpless but... it's a trend. Taylor has been doing nothing when not actively fighting for her life for the majority of this story. Like we finally got Marie back and Taylor's desire to improve and try things and put some effort into saving the fucking world has just... vanished. Poof. It's like she's become a punch-clock hero, where the end of the fucking world isn't her problem if she isn't in a singularity and thus "on the clock."

Go try to learn Gaelic fisticuffs from Aife. Go try to learn magic something-or-other from El-Melloi, or Da Vinci! Work with Shakespeare to do... magic tinkering things? Hell if she had a mostly slice-of-life scene with Arash and got him to show her how to shoot a bow that would be something. Maybe it comes in handy in the next singularity, who fucking knows?! There are all these bona fide captial-fucking-h HEROES hanging around mostly being bored out of their minds, potentially priceless resources literally everywhere just... sitting there. Please use them. Or at least TRY. Every attempt doesn't have to be successful, but I cannot be convinced that Taylor would just not fucking try. Some of these Servants are incredibly busy but most of them aren't, having something to do that might set up a potential advantage in the future is a win for literally everyone involved.

I get it, she eats food in the cafeteria with the twins and teaches Mash to swim with Marie. What else is she doing?
 
Go try to learn Gaelic fisticuffs from Aife. Go try to learn magic something-or-other from El-Melloi, or Da Vinci! Work with Shakespeare to do... magic tinkering things? Hell if she had a mostly slice-of-life scene with Arash and got him to show her how to shoot a bow that would be something. Maybe it comes in handy in the next singularity, who fucking knows?! There are all these bona fide captial-fucking-h HEROES hanging around mostly being bored out of their minds, potentially priceless resources literally everywhere just... sitting there. Please use them. Or at least TRY.
Hell yes. But it can be added.

As a last resort, just let Taylor listen and take notes on the stories of these Heroes. Many of them lived in the Age of Gods, perhaps it is worth listening to their experience of life in those times, which are now seriously distorted by Age of Humans?

Like, what happened to France during the time of Charlemagne, what mythical creatures or artifacts were in the hands of the Paladins, or maybe even listen to information from a person who personally spoke with Merlin, aka the most famous magician in history?

Maybe listen to the legends of ancient Persia, learn about great warriors and monsters? Or, damn it, talk, again, with someone who held a divine gift in their hands and, in general, find out his experience regarding interaction with the divine, like an Angel, who shared the knowledge of how to create such an arrow, even if and second hand?

Oh, possibly talk to a person who combines an ancient Chinese General and a modern Magician, in order to find out how in the past people fought monsters, or even created them?

And do you know the advantage of such questioning compared to modern sources? Because they lived at that time and know how it all worked, in the presence of magicians, demons, mythical beasts and either still living deities, or who knows what (aka, GOD).

It's simple, you don't necessarily need to make Taylor physically or magically stronger — just give her the opportunity to develop for the benefit of her mission, even if in an unorthodox way.

And with the author's idea that Taylor is on the path of "fighting to live" rather than "living to fight", it is possible to show Taylor how the heroes of the past not only performed feats, but also lived beyond those feats and stories told by the world. What were their favorite foods from those eras, what did they enjoy in their free time, etc. Maybe then Taylor will understand that this life consists not only of struggle, but also of such small moments?
 
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I think the number one problem a lot of readers are having with this is that we aren't shown Taylor trying to improve herself, we're not even told she's trying to improve herself off screen. OP said in a post she was, but that's a problem because we need to be shown this in text, or failing that, at least told us in story, not as an out of story note. I quite like the story to be honest and I disagree with some of the criticism of Taylor, but the thing that I do think needs more focus are these things Taylor is doing to improve herself, apparently, according to OP, but we're never given the impression she's doing in the actual story text.
 
People are assuming she has options she doesn't have.
Sure Taylor can just pick up a skill that takes specific attributes she doesn't have and/or years of constant consistant study with all the required resources and dedicated instruction to even get the basics down in a few weeks of fragmented practice in between all the other Chaldean Master duties.
If y'all want her to kill herself trying to increase her ability to aid Chaldea then a knife to the neck is probably the better way. Just kill herself in the middle of the summoning circle. Servant Taylor.
Do you all even know what her magical aptitude is? She's not some tenth generation product of magical eugenics with 400 years of magical R&D stitched across her arm and back.
Learning Runes from nothing is absurdly complicated, not something she can even begin to crack in the timeframe given. It'd be months before she could be trusted to not blow herself up unsupervised.
Learning Aife's celtic martial arts would take years of dedicated training before she could use them well enough to matter in any circumstances she'd need them. If she just needs to fight someone on a level that doesn't require the ability to punch someone from a stone's throw away then she already knows how to do that.
Puppet crafting? Da Vinci does it for her, and so much better that it's not even worth contemplating on how to close the gap.
Some kind of insect magecraft? Who or what can teach her that? With what resources will she practice and develop her magecraft? She's trying to arrange approval for a terrarium to begin working with bugs, but that's still not gonna go anywhere until at least London.
Waver optimizing her abilities? He doesn't know how her abilities work to optimize them, and even if he did the answer is brain damage. Both Olga and Taylor know what lies down that road, Romani's a doctor, and most of Chaldea, including Waver himself, would all veto that option as too extreme and dangerous.
Even the craft I keep tossing around has serious difficulties. Formalcraft relies tremendously on one's knowledge of creating rituals and the materials one has available for ritual construction. Taylor can bypass much of her lacking first generation physical/spiritual aptitude for magecraft by using the foundation that relies on rituals instead of the self, but it would still require an enormous amount of study to utilize it to any meaningful effect, especially as she would most often have to work around subpar materials and conditions.
She's been stewing in her inability to improve because guess what? There's not much improvement she can do right now. She's face to face with a wall she can't currently climb. She's got things in the works and some ideas on the backburner, but they're not ready yet, and she can't reasonably expedite them.
 
People are assuming she has options she doesn't have.
Sure Taylor can just pick up a skill that takes specific attributes she doesn't have and/or years of constant consistant study with all the required resources and dedicated instruction to even get the basics down in a few weeks of fragmented practice in between all the other Chaldean Master duties.
If y'all want her to kill herself trying to increase her ability to aid Chaldea then a knife to the neck is probably the better way. Just kill herself in the middle of the summoning circle. Servant Taylor.
Do you all even know what her magical aptitude is? She's not some tenth generation product of magical eugenics with 400 years of magical R&D stitched across her arm and back.
Learning Runes from nothing is absurdly complicated, not something she can even begin to crack in the timeframe given. It'd be months before she could be trusted to not blow herself up unsupervised.
Learning Aife's celtic martial arts would take years of dedicated training before she could use them well enough to matter in any circumstances she'd need them. If she just needs to fight someone on a level that doesn't require the ability to punch someone from a stone's throw away then she already knows how to do that.
Puppet crafting? Da Vinci does it for her, and so much better that it's not even worth contemplating on how to close the gap.
Some kind of insect magecraft? Who or what can teach her that? With what resources will she practice and develop her magecraft? She's trying to arrange approval for a terrarium to begin working with bugs, but that's still not gonna go anywhere until at least London.
Waver optimizing her abilities? He doesn't know how her abilities work to optimize them, and even if he did the answer is brain damage. Both Olga and Taylor know what lies down that road, Romani's a doctor, and most of Chaldea, including Waver himself, would all veto that option as too extreme and dangerous.
Even the craft I keep tossing around has serious difficulties. Formalcraft relies tremendously on one's knowledge of creating rituals and the materials one has available for ritual construction. Taylor can bypass much of her lacking first generation physical/spiritual aptitude for magecraft by using the foundation that relies on rituals instead of the self, but it would still require an enormous amount of study to utilize it to any meaningful effect, especially as she would most often have to work around subpar materials and conditions.
She's been stewing in her inability to improve because guess what? There's not much improvement she can do right now. She's face to face with a wall she can't currently climb. She's got things in the works and some ideas on the backburner, but they're not ready yet, and she can't reasonably expedite them.

Ehh I'd say Insect Magecraft, even just trying for it, feels perhaps a natural outgrowth to combine magecraft with her power, but issues would arise providing magical energy or creating magic circuits in them, which I presume Shards can provide, and well...what would be the Mystery that empowers, her Power/Shard?

Then again on the magical energy front, I don't see what's stopping her (in-setting) from one-day developing' a swarm-mass technique to establish magical pathways, akin to how Wodime used the heavens and planets of the cosmos, to cast spells from but on a smaller limited scale via the medium of insect life. And I don't think it would matter that Taylor drains the lifeforce/force of providence of these insects, or possibly her Shard, from time to time, in order to sustain the circuit.
 
Skill issue bruh. I'd say that's years beyond her current skill level, unless she gets specialized instruction with the intention of doing that.
Oh no I got that, I'm more saying in the general sense, not like "Taylor should have this right now", but hopefully more coming across of "Hey would this be something to keep in mind for Taylor's magecraft in the future?" But yeah a big crux of the matter is...Taylor doesn't really have a personal mystery, hence guessing that maybe she could utilize QA, her Power, a Shard, or something in-between as a Parahuman, as the unstable foundation for it.
 
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