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Hard Enough - Pokemon SI

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Ok then.
Mewtwo was the one cheating. Weird, but i can see a logic for it if Giovanni was planning on suborning Will.
Don't see much point in it, Will would never have lasted a week without constant external support.
Team Rocket has now also made it publicly known that there are pokemon moves that can destroy opponents pokeball.
Does not seem worth it to me.

We also have confirmation that Will was cheating, which we already knew 100%.
I don't expect it to matter to those people who keep insisting that Will was just being smart trainer.
And we know that Mewtwo can use his powers close to Sabrina mostly undetected, and possibly completely so without armor.

Not really seeing much of a point for any of this.
Unless it was to establish Mewtwo being undetected, anti pokeball moves, and that Pokemon League is now looking for ways to stop pokeball breakage endangering pokemon.
Which, is not much for all the crap we had to go through to get here.

Oh, we also learned that Will was even more worthless than we thought with having been given the Jynx that basicly carried his team instead of having trained it.
How did this waste of space manage to get 8 badges?
 
famfrit said:
There's also the facts that they took back their support in both the Jynx he was using and Mewtwo. Considering how many high lv matches he has lined up her absence should be pretty noticeable along with how he's functioning at a lower lv of strength.

Poor Agatha also doesn't like the Poke rap just wait until the much longer later version comes out.
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Will will probably play the absence of Jynx out as him trying to step away from the public outcry his tactics with it caused. It is not that he doesn't have that pokemon anymore, it is that the tactics he trained it in caused a lot of backlash so using it in matches is couter productive for his bid to Elite 4 until he retrains it.

Unless he gets it back for the Erika match, then it is just that he was saving the ice type pokemon for the grass type gym so he was using it less to give less chances to gather info about it. Either that or he didn't need the Jynx on the team because the threat of it is enough to limit people's option ir some random bullshit like that.
 
Ultra Sonic 007 said:
Why wouldn't Team Rocket want to have a mole within the Elite Four?

/especially if they'd be as beholden to them as Will would be
//cause the blackmail they'd have would he enough to nuke his whole career and then some
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I don't care about Team Rocket's plans, i am talking about the narrative point.
Also, considering how horrible Will has been shown to be, there is zero chance for him to join E4.
Will would need a constant babying from the worlds most powerful psychic pokemon, not, fucking, worth it.
Especially when they could actually raise their own E4 candidate with actual skills and loyalty, instead of the empty suit with emptier head.
 
Ultra Sonic 007 said:
Why wouldn't Team Rocket want to have a mole within the Elite Four?
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The reasons why TR would want a mole in the E4 are obvious, the problem comes from trying to put Will in that spot, because he's demonstrated a slew of issues that will prevent him from ever actually achieving the position.

First of all, if you need to rules lawyer (let alone actually cheat) in a pokemon match, you probably just don't have the required level of power an E4 needs to have to do their job.
Second, no one is going to want Will to represent them
Third, as the E4 are responsible for responding to disasters and such, being able to carry yourself well under pressure is important, and Will hasn't demonstrated that.
 
Valmond said:
I don't care about Team Rocket's plans, i am talking about the narrative point.
Also, considering how horrible Will has been shown to be, there is zero chance for him to join E4.
Will would need a constant babying from the worlds most powerful psychic pokemon, not, fucking, worth it.
Especially when they could actually raise their own E4 candidate with actual skills and loyalty, instead of the empty suit with emptier head.
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Barghest Blue said:
The reasons why TR would want a mole in the E4 are obvious, the problem comes from trying to put Will in that spot, because he's demonstrated a slew of issues that will prevent him from ever actually achieving the position.

First of all, if you need to rules lawyer (let alone actually cheat) in a pokemon match, you probably just don't have the required level of power an E4 needs to have to do their job.
Second, no one is going to want Will to represent them
Third, as the E4 are responsible for responding to disasters and such, being able to carry yourself well under pressure is important, and Will hasn't demonstrated that.
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It would be low-key hilarious if Will's prominence in the narrative is largely due to the power struggle going on in the shadows between Giovanni and his mother (because it definitely seems like his mother was the one pushing for Will the most, for...reasons).
 
I can't believe that I completely forgot to factor in Mewtwo as a cheating method.

I guess that I just assumed that it's psychic presence would be too big to be hidden at all… perhaps hidden in the shroud of Will's Psychic team , all of the psychic attacks being used, and his own aura?

Wouldn't the Shiny Gardevoir be completely INCREDIBLY suspicious for Will to just suddenly have after "his" standout Jynx did so well against Kanto's rising star gym leader?

Still fun to see Giovanni securing his hold on power and expanding it.

Soon RAINBOW ROCKET shall reign supreme over all nations.

….And perhaps openly in Orre since Orre is….well Orre. Do well enough and it could give them a legitimacy and nation-state of their own to operate openly in in forms that they can't in their home region.
 
What could Project Monster be?


Also, Clefairy isn't Brock's only new pokemon. He has a traditional Graveler who is itching for good fights. Regardless of whether she evolves, what could an aggressive Graveler/Golem contribute to an Ace team? Perhaps another sandstorm user?
 
NewWillinium said:
Still fun to see Giovanni securing his hold on power and expanding it.
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I am suspicous how Rocket seem to get no pushback without MC being involved. I expect local Teams will go after Rocket at some point as compatation if nothing else.
nmWarden said:
He has a traditional Graveler who is itching for good fights. Regardless of whether she evolves, what could an aggressive Graveler/Golem contribute to an Ace team?
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You mean Challanger? Went with Forrest so probably join his team rather than Brock.
 
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Ultra Sonic 007 said:
It would be low-key hilarious if Will's prominence in the narrative is largely due to the power struggle going on in the shadows between Giovanni and his mother (because it definitely seems like his mother was the one pushing for Will the most, for...reasons).
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It probably is.
Which leaves the question of, why?
Because while it can make sense, in story, the narrative needs to be more than just sensible (which i would argue it has not been).
It needs to be compelling, and considering the last few chapters, and almost everything involving Will where he was not instantly crushed, has been the opposite of it.

Is there a larger plan? Was there one before author had to change things?
What could be worth all the crap with Will?
 
Valmond said:
Ok then.
Mewtwo was the one cheating. Weird, but i can see a logic for it if Giovanni was planning on suborning Will.
Don't see much point in it, Will would never have lasted a week without constant external support.
Team Rocket has now also made it publicly known that there are pokemon moves that can destroy opponents pokeball.
Does not seem worth it to me.

We also have confirmation that Will was cheating, which we already knew 100%.
I don't expect it to matter to those people who keep insisting that Will was just being smart trainer.
And we know that Mewtwo can use his powers close to Sabrina mostly undetected, and possibly completely so without armor.

Not really seeing much of a point for any of this.
Unless it was to establish Mewtwo being undetected, anti pokeball moves, and that Pokemon League is now looking for ways to stop pokeball breakage endangering pokemon.
Which, is not much for all the crap we had to go through to get here.

Oh, we also learned that Will was even more worthless than we thought with having been given the Jynx that basicly carried his team instead of having trained it.
How did this waste of space manage to get 8 badges?
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We already had confirmation he was cheating from the authour notes from the one before this one.

I would also say Will was even more worthless because of his attitude after the match like his whining it was only a tie and they should have cheated more to give him the win. It had also been hinted at that Team Rocket had been involved in his team albeit with the hint being due to how rare Slowkings are instead of Jynx.

For Will getting the badges Surge said he is from Hoenn so we can't really say especially with so many canon gym leaders not being leaders yet. I would say though he is probably ok for the 8 badge lv just not the upper Ace or Elite 4 lvs. Of note is some people called his Medicham being able to go hand to hand with Gawain as being cheating but that one actually makes sense since Medicham is an actual fighting type which Gawain isn't and that Gawain is both young and inexperienced especially as a Klevour.

Bakkasama said:
Will will probably play the absence of Jynx out as him trying to step away from the public outcry his tactics with it caused. It is not that he doesn't have that pokemon anymore, it is that the tactics he trained it in caused a lot of backlash so using it in matches is couter productive for his bid to Elite 4 until he retrains it.

Unless he gets it back for the Erika match, then it is just that he was saving the ice type pokemon for the grass type gym so he was using it less to give less chances to gather info about it. Either that or he didn't need the Jynx on the team because the threat of it is enough to limit people's option ir some random bullshit like that.
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In addition to his gym challenges he has multiple matches booked against Ace lv trainers is the thing I was meaning. The match there with Brock alone should have been tiring for his team and would anyone be surprised if say Medicham or Alakazam's big leg wounds meant they couldn't battle for a few days especially with some of them using moves like recover only to get further beat up. We did after all see Brock's team is still in their medical care so it shouldn't be surprising if Will is in the same position.

nmWarden said:
What could Project Monster be?


Also, Clefairy isn't Brock's only new pokemon. He has a traditional Graveler who is itching for good fights. Regardless of whether she evolves, what could an aggressive Graveler/Golem contribute to an Ace team? Perhaps another sandstorm user?
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Too many possibilities for Project Monster like Megas (possibly uncontrolled), the giant pokemon from the anime, more experiments with Legendaries or atking more legendaries.

The Graveler Challenger went if Forrest if you were to talk of new pokemon for Brock though you should consider his Lileep are working their way up there and so may evolve, from mount silver he got a Teddiursa, Jorm's in progress mega evolution and he has his semi new fossils of Cranidos, Tirtouga and Anorith.
 
famfrit said:
We already had confirmation he was cheating from the authour notes from the one before this one.
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Yes, and we also still had people arguing that Will was not cheating.
Which is kinda nuts.
Hopefully now, with it being literally stated in story, people will now stop trying to argue that Will was just competent at using trick strategies or someshit.

edit-
It was also noted that Medicham's move weirdly during the fight.
I am not going to assume that, just this once, Will did not cheat.
 
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Valmond said:
It was also noted that Medicham's move weirdly during the fight.
I am not going to assume that, just this once, Will did not cheat.
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It was but that's not what I'm meaning. At the start of their fight the two went head to head with no moves which is what people were saying must have been cheating. Medicham's movements there were normal it was only later when they shifted to using moves and after switches it's movements got odd like the very high jump or floaty jump by. Gawain's body also does tweak things because of having Axe hands and bits you can't hit but is himself inexperienced so I don't find it that odd that a fighting type could matchup and certainly not enough to go this can't be legit and absolutely must be cheating.
 
Could it be legit, sure, not impossible.
But considering the active cheating going on, i think it more likely that it was atleast somewhat guided by Mewtwo using precog moves.
Also i no longer buy Will having been able to train Medicham to that level, could have bought one i guess.
 
famfrit said:
At the start of their fight the two went head to head with no moves which is what people were saying must have been cheating. Medicham's movements there were normal it was only later when they shifted to using moves and after switches it's movements got odd like the very high jump or floaty jump by. Gawain's body also does tweak things because of having Axe hands and bits you can't hit but is himself inexperienced so I don't find it that odd that a fighting type could matchup and certainly not enough to go this can't be legit and absolutely must be cheating.
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Since this is a story an not statistical analysis that requares for us to lay down every remote possibility we can say he must be absoultely be cheating. Narrative is laid down like that and burden of proof lays clearly on cheater to prove that one instance was not them cheating.

At this point assuming Will was innocent of anything is sheer fucking stupidty. But if that is the hill you want to die on, well you do you I suppose...
 
An interesting side effect of this fight. With the assumption of Agent M being Mewtwo, this is the first time that Mewtwo has been anywhere near people with kindness (aside from Ambertwo). He's been around scientists, Giovanni, other pokemon to subdue, and an enraged Legendary.

In canon, he was cooped up and contained until his escape. Here, he got to see Mt. Silver be devastated with wild pokemon fighting, fleeing, and panicking after poking the chicken's nest (and he didn't even win, it was too strong), and a match between the Gym Leader who had been on that mountain and a cruel charlatan.

Mewtwo was witness not only to a human with opposing dark typed Aura, but a human who cared about his pokemon. Tide the Lapras got hit hard in the head. Instead of forcing him to keep fighting, Brock withdrew him with the help of Chansey. When Trick Room was in the way of Chansey getting to Knight the Aggron, Brock leaped out of the platform, walked out there, picked him up, and bodily threw him over to Chansey to receive medical attention. He wasn't going to wait around longer than necessary.

And then the crowd. People (and presumably the pokemon in the back range too) cheered for Brock and booed Will, and at the end, Brock acknowledged the efforts of his human team. And then went straight to see his mon.

Mewtwo had his first, albeit distanced, experience with a good person and trainer who didn't scream at his pokemon, force them through potentially scarring damage, ignore them, or treat them like dirt. And if he does remember Brock from Mt. Silver, and saw his fight against Moltres, then Mewtwo would see that the pokemon who had been heavily damaged back then were not forced to fight.

Mewtwo will still be wary of humans, but I'd like to think these two events have left an impression on him.
 
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Tasoli said:
Since this is a story an not statistical analysis that requares for us to lay down every remote possibility we can say he must be absoultely be cheating. Narrative is laid down like that and burden of proof lays clearly on cheater to prove that one instance was not them cheating.

At this point assuming Will was innocent of anything is sheer fucking stupidty. But if that is the hill you want to die on, well you do you I suppose...
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Not saying I'm assuming Will is innocent I have in fact pointed out several iffy things about the match like 3 times the arrival of future sight miraculously saved Will. However, I don't agree with the conclusion it's impossible for it to not be cheating because a fighting type matching an inexperienced, freshly evolved and now slower non fighting type in moveless close quarters combat isn't really that unbelievable so I am willing to acknowledge there is room for doubt.

I would also say to watch the language since we just had someone get punished by the mods for it a few days ago.
 
famfrit said:
Not saying I'm assuming Will is innocent I have in fact pointed out several iffy things about the match like 3 times the arrival of future sight miraculously saved Will. However, I don't agree with the conclusion it's impossible for it to not be cheating because a fighting type matching an inexperienced, freshly evolved and now slower non fighting type in moveless close quarters combat isn't really that unbelievable so I am willing to acknowledge there is room for doubt.

I would also say to watch the language since we just had someone get punished by the mods for it a few days ago.
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Yeah, I mean, we do have to remember that Will had a carreer as an Ace trainer prior to the challenge. While his psychic powers probably did the heavy lifting by reading his opponents there, he probably at least has one thing going for him; though most of what he showed was probably Mewtwo.

His pokemon being tougher? Confirmed to be Mewtwo.
Seed Bomb Psychic combo? Probably Mewtwo
Anything Jynx? Not his pokemon
Exeggutor parallel processing? Probably Mewtwo
Baton pass? Mewtwo confirmed
Well timed future sight? Hard to say because while they were very well timed, the whole point of the move is to use precognotion to hit
Slowking recovering? This one might actually be Will, since Slowking get an ability that heals it
Medicham being good at fighting? Maybe, we have to check the difference between how it fought while Will gave it verbal orders or not. This one might actually be Will giving it a second pair of eyes instead of Mewtwo.

Like, almost all of those come from external help but given that he made it this far before contacting Rocket, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt that maybe one or two are his doing (probably just the Slowking)
 
Flamerai said:
Will is fucked, Geo was right to cut him loose, Will needed to win this match. Cause right now it looks like he played super dirty, while Brock was weakened and barely managed a draw, and is running from a rematch. If he won he could play it off as Brock being a sore loser and insisting on a rematch, but now he looks cowardly.

That's not even getting into the fact that the mean look trick appears super cruel, it is basically designed to counteract the safety mechanism that is being able to recall a seriously injured Pokemon and get it treatment immediately through the use of stasis. It looks a lot more deliberate then accidentally putting too much effort into an attack and injuring an opponent severely.
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Honestly, the sunk cost fallacy is a perfect description. He was given basically everything to win. The game was literally rigged in his favor and he only pulled a draw. It makes Brock's pulling a draw more impressive, but for Will it's something of a disaster. If he at least had pulled a win he could pull a "dark and ruthless" look in the public eye, but he didn't even manage that. Moreover, he was cheating. Like...

Well, I really can't think of a better way to describe it then Giovani did.
 
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