GODSTAR - a Science Fantasy Civilization Quest
- Thread starter ScottishMongol
- Start date
-
- Tags
- civ quest
- Location
- an unseen void
- Pronouns
- Any
I mean they're steppe tank-nomads. They're gonna be a lot less dense on the ground than we are. Still scary, though.
Very eager to connect with the League of Five Shields.
Very eager to connect with the League of Five Shields.
Turn 4 Diplomacy Actions
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Marlo, Speaker Empowered to Bargain, stepped off the canoe onto Santuary's dock. Behind him was a Historian, to observe and consult, and a holy man, to obtain his own perspective.
The city made a good first impression. The city took up most of an island athwart the mouth of the Long River, commanding the river delta and the sea approach. Long, straight roads were lined with brick houses and tile roofs, with monuments and shrines at street corners and town squares.
"Welcome, Speaker from the League," said Sanctuary's own diplomat. He spoke in the tongue of the True People, of course – after generations, many would have come to speak it as a second language.
The man had brown skin and a long beard, and wore long, fine robes and an impressive turban. And…Marlo cast a discerning eye over the man. He did have something of the True People about his look. As the diplomat led them through the streets, Marlo noted that many of the people looked different – not just from the True People, but from each other. Some had pale skin, others had dark skin, some had epicanthal folds, others had full beards. And yet, there were others who looked like they had some of the True People in them, even those who looked like full-blooded members of the True People, wearing traditional clothing in addition to the common outfit worn by the men of Sanctuary. The women wore something similar, although with headdresses in place of turbans.
Marlo asked his host if his suspicions were correct.
"Yes, many of our people have married yours. Your marriage customs mean that many of our young men have left to join their wives' tribes, but some of your men have come here to learn and work as well.
That said, there are some who…disapprove."
As the diplomat said that, Marlo noted a few people of Sanctuary looking at the League's delegation with barely-concealed hostility.
The diplomat led them to the center of town, to a large temple of an exquisite architecture Marlo had never seen before…although he understood lesser copies were appearing in nearby cities along the lower reaches of the Long River.
It was made of worked stone, with precise angles and proportions, its walls inscribed with flowing designs that incorporated symbols that were interwoven in subtle, intricate ways. The domes and columns were, in some ineffable way, so precisely placed that Marlo could only think of the word perfection. Every part of the edifice fit into the whole. Marlo glanced at his holy man attaché, who nodded – the temple was even more sublime in its spiritual aspects.
"The Great Dargah of Sanctuary," the diplomat intoned, "Enter, and you will find the Sheik Ahmad al-Ahmad al-Jabbar, the Fourth Mullah of Sanctuary."
***
The Sheik Ahmad himself was an old man, hunched with age and with a long white beard. He seemed blind in one eye. As he sat smoking a long pipe, wearing the most elaborate turban Marlo had seen yet, Marlo wondered how the man had come to power. Did he inherit the position? The Sheik did seem to be attended by a number of advisers.
"We understand you came from another world," Marlo said.
The Sheik nodded.
"Yes, your knowledge of the stars is impressive, from what we hear. Yes, several generations ago, the first Sheik Ahmad led our people on a world we called Endymion. The nature of our dispute with that planet's rulers we can discuss at a later date, but we were forced into exile. A sympathetic ship's captain allowed us passage, and we sought a new life here, where we would be beyond notice."
Marlo chewed on that. That there were other worlds, this was theorized given all the League's wise men knew of stars and their properties. That travel between worlds was possible was a speculative fantasy, but not out of the realms of imagination. That the world the League existed on could be beyond notice of what were possibly hostile powers...
"Tell me, oh Sheik, are you then descended from this first leader?" Marlo asked. The man's eyes glittered.
"No, I am him! Or at least, his reincarnation. His soul, returned to inhabit a new body. One of the reasons we were expelled was our sect's unorthodox notions on the transmigration of souls."
Marlo nodded. Of course, he did not even think to question this, since he himself was sitting next to a man who regularly spoke with trees and rivers, and he himself often made offerings to his dead mother's spirit. Why should another people not have different spiritual customs?
"I – that is, my current incarnation – was born into a humble family of bricklayers. I was identified thanks to certain rituals, and when I was old enough, I was taught the meditative practices that allowed me to unlock the memories of my past lives, and at that point I took up this position to lead my people again."
"Who led them in the meantime? And who taught you?"
"My advisers, of course. Wise men and legal scholars all." The Sheik took another pull on his pipe and exhaled a cloud of sweet-smelling smoke, then looked at Marlo shrewdly. "Now, we understand you lead a quite sizable association of tribes upriver. I'm sure we have much to give to each other, both in trade goods and in knowledge."
Marlo cleared his throat.
"I agree in principle, but there are other questions I have. While we are sure you have only the best intentions, there are those among my people who are unsure what your goals are. Certain actions-"
The Sheik raised his hand.
"Please, do not misunderstand us. It must be said that yes, we wish to spread the word of our faith, and those of us who have left to join your tribes have brought it with them. Others have converted. We have no wish to spread it by force, and indeed we have been studying many of your practices as well, for they proved useful when we came to this unfamiliar world and have remained so.
Second, yes, we have allies, and we will defend them with force. I will allow that we seek allies for the sake of our own prosperity and security. You are the same, I am sure. If you desire peace, we will have peace, on whatever terms will ensure security for both of us. Does that address your concerns?"
Marlo nodded.
"Yes, that will help remove the fears of some back home. I am sure you have questions as well."
The Sheik nodded and took a pull on his long pipe.
"Tell me, Speaker, your League has expanded greatly. It seems to me that you desire to bring all of your people together. That is a worthy goal, I admit, but it must be asked: where does Sanctuary and her allies fit into that plan?"
Marlo licked his lips.
"That, oh Sheik, is a delicate question..."
Government and Economy
Sanctuary is a city-state ruled by one man, the Sheik Ahmad al-Jabbar. He was the founder of Sanctuary, and upon his death his soul always transmigrates into another body. Until he completes his training which allows him to recall his past lives, Sanctuary is ruled by a regency council of wise men and legal scholars.
You do not fully understand the Sheik's character or the nature of his reincarnation, which makes it difficult to form an impression of him, but as a whole Sanctuary does not seem to desire territorial expansion except in the sense of acquiring more allies. They see you not as a threat but as a power to be respected.
The people of Sanctuary fled from their homeworld Endymion, a planet orbiting a star which your Historians identified as Leading Elk in the constellation of the Great Hunt. The politics involved in their expulsion are opaque but they seem to have been a populist movement drawn from urban craftsmen. As a result, Sanctuary has many skilled laborers and is a manufacturing center which, like the League, produces finished goods for export. They have trade connections both along the lower reaches of the Long River and with the seafaring Islander Folk.
Due to their small population, many of Sanctuary's people have made marriages with True People from neighboring allied tribes. This has resulted in a mixed population within the city and in nearby population centers, but there is also a nativist faction opposed to this cultural exchange. They seem to make up a large minority, but their numbers have been falling and they seem to fear becoming an even smaller minority in the next few generations.
Belief System
The people of Sanctuary call themselves Al-Manfiy and their religious beliefs stem from a tradition they call Sufi, although with a belief in transmigration of the soul, from which they claim powers of reincarnation, astral projection, and spiritual empowerment. Their places of worship are masterpieces of magical architecture beyond the monuments the League has built, and are key in their belief system. They also have a writing system they call Arabic, and claim it also has various esoteric qualities. Finally, they have freely admitted to studying your traditions and incorporating veneration of certain spirits adopted from neighboring tribes. They have admitted to a desire to spread their religious beliefs among you.
Technology
The leadership of Sanctuary seemed hesitant to discuss their technology, but through observation and some careful factfinding you have managed to put some pieces together.
Their workshops and factories are very advanced with machines that can do the work of many men, and they have labor-saving devices that can do a variety of wonderful things. They have powered vehicles like those of the Machine Army, which are perhaps less advanced but at the same time allow for travel on land, sea, and air.
They seem to have lost many capabilities since coming here due to unclear issues with recordkeeping, as well as what seem to be a lack of researchers or institutes of learning. For example, they claim to have a theoretical basis for travel between the stars but lack any functioning examples or even designs of that technology.
Conclusion
Their government system is very limited compared to your own, with one-man rule having dominated since their founding, albeit somewhat functionally. They have peaceful intentions but desire cultural influence beyond their borders. They have the potential for technological growth but seem to be limited by their own lack of scientific institutions.
With all of this in mind, they have offered you a treaty, and made themselves open to the following terms:
Diplomacy
[] Recognition
You will extend diplomatic recognition but will otherwise make no agreements favoring them as an ally.
[] Non-Aggression Pact
You will recognize each other as separate polities and will not attack each other, attempting to resolve any disputes peacefully, and will otherwise not interfere in each other's internal affairs.
[] Mutual Defense Pact
You will agree to an alliance, pledging to defend each other against outside threats. This is primarily a military alliance but does not preclude other forms of diplomatic relations.
[] Integration
You will not only form an alliance, but will encourage them to adopt a similar form of government to the League, in order to lay the groundwork for eventually integrating them directly into League as a member. May require intervention in Sanctuary's internal politics.
Technology
[] Purchase Technology
Concerns over Sanctuary increasing their technological edge mean that your people are not interested in research agreements. However, Sanctuary will still allow you to purchase some technologies from them, which you could then attempt to reverse-engineer.
[] Research Agreement
You will agree to exchanges of information, allowing you to research their technology and vice versa. You will also allow researchers from Sanctuary to come to study in your universities.
[] Research Collaboration
You will not only study each other's technology, but you will also work together on shared projects. Creates additional options for joint collaboration every turn.
Economics
[] No Deal
You will reject any special economic relationship with them.
[] Trade Deal
You will seek a beneficial trade deal that enriches you both, while protecting your own manufacturing capacity from competition with theirs.
[] Economic Integration
Sanctuary's economics are more complex than your own, involving the use of currency and banking. Allows you to study their economics-based social sciences, adopting their economic system as your own.
Culture
[] Orthodoxy
In the interest of preserving your culture against outside influence, you will ban their missionaries from the League and counteract their attempts to spread their beliefs by leaning on your own cultural influence. May lead to conflict with Sanctuary, undermining other aspects of your relationship.
[] Tolerance
You will help them continue to learn your ways, in turn allowing you to study their beliefs and spiritual technologies. Otherwise, you will adopt a live and let live attitude, and not attempt to restrict their missionary activities.
[] Syncretism
Not only will you tolerate their traditions, but you will actively seek to incorporate aspects of their belief system into yours, while also teaching them more of your traditions. Creates additional options for joint collaboration every turn.
Vote opens in 24 hours. Vote by plan.
The city made a good first impression. The city took up most of an island athwart the mouth of the Long River, commanding the river delta and the sea approach. Long, straight roads were lined with brick houses and tile roofs, with monuments and shrines at street corners and town squares.
"Welcome, Speaker from the League," said Sanctuary's own diplomat. He spoke in the tongue of the True People, of course – after generations, many would have come to speak it as a second language.
The man had brown skin and a long beard, and wore long, fine robes and an impressive turban. And…Marlo cast a discerning eye over the man. He did have something of the True People about his look. As the diplomat led them through the streets, Marlo noted that many of the people looked different – not just from the True People, but from each other. Some had pale skin, others had dark skin, some had epicanthal folds, others had full beards. And yet, there were others who looked like they had some of the True People in them, even those who looked like full-blooded members of the True People, wearing traditional clothing in addition to the common outfit worn by the men of Sanctuary. The women wore something similar, although with headdresses in place of turbans.
Marlo asked his host if his suspicions were correct.
"Yes, many of our people have married yours. Your marriage customs mean that many of our young men have left to join their wives' tribes, but some of your men have come here to learn and work as well.
That said, there are some who…disapprove."
As the diplomat said that, Marlo noted a few people of Sanctuary looking at the League's delegation with barely-concealed hostility.
The diplomat led them to the center of town, to a large temple of an exquisite architecture Marlo had never seen before…although he understood lesser copies were appearing in nearby cities along the lower reaches of the Long River.
It was made of worked stone, with precise angles and proportions, its walls inscribed with flowing designs that incorporated symbols that were interwoven in subtle, intricate ways. The domes and columns were, in some ineffable way, so precisely placed that Marlo could only think of the word perfection. Every part of the edifice fit into the whole. Marlo glanced at his holy man attaché, who nodded – the temple was even more sublime in its spiritual aspects.
"The Great Dargah of Sanctuary," the diplomat intoned, "Enter, and you will find the Sheik Ahmad al-Ahmad al-Jabbar, the Fourth Mullah of Sanctuary."
***
The Sheik Ahmad himself was an old man, hunched with age and with a long white beard. He seemed blind in one eye. As he sat smoking a long pipe, wearing the most elaborate turban Marlo had seen yet, Marlo wondered how the man had come to power. Did he inherit the position? The Sheik did seem to be attended by a number of advisers.
"We understand you came from another world," Marlo said.
The Sheik nodded.
"Yes, your knowledge of the stars is impressive, from what we hear. Yes, several generations ago, the first Sheik Ahmad led our people on a world we called Endymion. The nature of our dispute with that planet's rulers we can discuss at a later date, but we were forced into exile. A sympathetic ship's captain allowed us passage, and we sought a new life here, where we would be beyond notice."
Marlo chewed on that. That there were other worlds, this was theorized given all the League's wise men knew of stars and their properties. That travel between worlds was possible was a speculative fantasy, but not out of the realms of imagination. That the world the League existed on could be beyond notice of what were possibly hostile powers...
"Tell me, oh Sheik, are you then descended from this first leader?" Marlo asked. The man's eyes glittered.
"No, I am him! Or at least, his reincarnation. His soul, returned to inhabit a new body. One of the reasons we were expelled was our sect's unorthodox notions on the transmigration of souls."
Marlo nodded. Of course, he did not even think to question this, since he himself was sitting next to a man who regularly spoke with trees and rivers, and he himself often made offerings to his dead mother's spirit. Why should another people not have different spiritual customs?
"I – that is, my current incarnation – was born into a humble family of bricklayers. I was identified thanks to certain rituals, and when I was old enough, I was taught the meditative practices that allowed me to unlock the memories of my past lives, and at that point I took up this position to lead my people again."
"Who led them in the meantime? And who taught you?"
"My advisers, of course. Wise men and legal scholars all." The Sheik took another pull on his pipe and exhaled a cloud of sweet-smelling smoke, then looked at Marlo shrewdly. "Now, we understand you lead a quite sizable association of tribes upriver. I'm sure we have much to give to each other, both in trade goods and in knowledge."
Marlo cleared his throat.
"I agree in principle, but there are other questions I have. While we are sure you have only the best intentions, there are those among my people who are unsure what your goals are. Certain actions-"
The Sheik raised his hand.
"Please, do not misunderstand us. It must be said that yes, we wish to spread the word of our faith, and those of us who have left to join your tribes have brought it with them. Others have converted. We have no wish to spread it by force, and indeed we have been studying many of your practices as well, for they proved useful when we came to this unfamiliar world and have remained so.
Second, yes, we have allies, and we will defend them with force. I will allow that we seek allies for the sake of our own prosperity and security. You are the same, I am sure. If you desire peace, we will have peace, on whatever terms will ensure security for both of us. Does that address your concerns?"
Marlo nodded.
"Yes, that will help remove the fears of some back home. I am sure you have questions as well."
The Sheik nodded and took a pull on his long pipe.
"Tell me, Speaker, your League has expanded greatly. It seems to me that you desire to bring all of your people together. That is a worthy goal, I admit, but it must be asked: where does Sanctuary and her allies fit into that plan?"
Marlo licked his lips.
"That, oh Sheik, is a delicate question..."
Sanctuary
Government and Economy
Sanctuary is a city-state ruled by one man, the Sheik Ahmad al-Jabbar. He was the founder of Sanctuary, and upon his death his soul always transmigrates into another body. Until he completes his training which allows him to recall his past lives, Sanctuary is ruled by a regency council of wise men and legal scholars.
You do not fully understand the Sheik's character or the nature of his reincarnation, which makes it difficult to form an impression of him, but as a whole Sanctuary does not seem to desire territorial expansion except in the sense of acquiring more allies. They see you not as a threat but as a power to be respected.
The people of Sanctuary fled from their homeworld Endymion, a planet orbiting a star which your Historians identified as Leading Elk in the constellation of the Great Hunt. The politics involved in their expulsion are opaque but they seem to have been a populist movement drawn from urban craftsmen. As a result, Sanctuary has many skilled laborers and is a manufacturing center which, like the League, produces finished goods for export. They have trade connections both along the lower reaches of the Long River and with the seafaring Islander Folk.
Due to their small population, many of Sanctuary's people have made marriages with True People from neighboring allied tribes. This has resulted in a mixed population within the city and in nearby population centers, but there is also a nativist faction opposed to this cultural exchange. They seem to make up a large minority, but their numbers have been falling and they seem to fear becoming an even smaller minority in the next few generations.
Belief System
The people of Sanctuary call themselves Al-Manfiy and their religious beliefs stem from a tradition they call Sufi, although with a belief in transmigration of the soul, from which they claim powers of reincarnation, astral projection, and spiritual empowerment. Their places of worship are masterpieces of magical architecture beyond the monuments the League has built, and are key in their belief system. They also have a writing system they call Arabic, and claim it also has various esoteric qualities. Finally, they have freely admitted to studying your traditions and incorporating veneration of certain spirits adopted from neighboring tribes. They have admitted to a desire to spread their religious beliefs among you.
Technology
The leadership of Sanctuary seemed hesitant to discuss their technology, but through observation and some careful factfinding you have managed to put some pieces together.
Their workshops and factories are very advanced with machines that can do the work of many men, and they have labor-saving devices that can do a variety of wonderful things. They have powered vehicles like those of the Machine Army, which are perhaps less advanced but at the same time allow for travel on land, sea, and air.
They seem to have lost many capabilities since coming here due to unclear issues with recordkeeping, as well as what seem to be a lack of researchers or institutes of learning. For example, they claim to have a theoretical basis for travel between the stars but lack any functioning examples or even designs of that technology.
Conclusion
Their government system is very limited compared to your own, with one-man rule having dominated since their founding, albeit somewhat functionally. They have peaceful intentions but desire cultural influence beyond their borders. They have the potential for technological growth but seem to be limited by their own lack of scientific institutions.
With all of this in mind, they have offered you a treaty, and made themselves open to the following terms:
Terms of the Treaty of Sanctuary
Diplomacy
[] Recognition
You will extend diplomatic recognition but will otherwise make no agreements favoring them as an ally.
[] Non-Aggression Pact
You will recognize each other as separate polities and will not attack each other, attempting to resolve any disputes peacefully, and will otherwise not interfere in each other's internal affairs.
[] Mutual Defense Pact
You will agree to an alliance, pledging to defend each other against outside threats. This is primarily a military alliance but does not preclude other forms of diplomatic relations.
[] Integration
You will not only form an alliance, but will encourage them to adopt a similar form of government to the League, in order to lay the groundwork for eventually integrating them directly into League as a member. May require intervention in Sanctuary's internal politics.
Technology
[] Purchase Technology
Concerns over Sanctuary increasing their technological edge mean that your people are not interested in research agreements. However, Sanctuary will still allow you to purchase some technologies from them, which you could then attempt to reverse-engineer.
[] Research Agreement
You will agree to exchanges of information, allowing you to research their technology and vice versa. You will also allow researchers from Sanctuary to come to study in your universities.
[] Research Collaboration
You will not only study each other's technology, but you will also work together on shared projects. Creates additional options for joint collaboration every turn.
Economics
[] No Deal
You will reject any special economic relationship with them.
[] Trade Deal
You will seek a beneficial trade deal that enriches you both, while protecting your own manufacturing capacity from competition with theirs.
[] Economic Integration
Sanctuary's economics are more complex than your own, involving the use of currency and banking. Allows you to study their economics-based social sciences, adopting their economic system as your own.
Culture
[] Orthodoxy
In the interest of preserving your culture against outside influence, you will ban their missionaries from the League and counteract their attempts to spread their beliefs by leaning on your own cultural influence. May lead to conflict with Sanctuary, undermining other aspects of your relationship.
[] Tolerance
You will help them continue to learn your ways, in turn allowing you to study their beliefs and spiritual technologies. Otherwise, you will adopt a live and let live attitude, and not attempt to restrict their missionary activities.
[] Syncretism
Not only will you tolerate their traditions, but you will actively seek to incorporate aspects of their belief system into yours, while also teaching them more of your traditions. Creates additional options for joint collaboration every turn.
Vote opens in 24 hours. Vote by plan.
Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Critical support for the LFS! I want to get a deal going where we support them materially in their struggle, maybe we can even send a few of our warriors to gain more experience.
The LFS basically guards our flank against the Tech Barons and with the Machine Army very clearly hungry for expansion we need to be able to focus our military efforts.
- Location
- an unseen void
- Pronouns
- Any
[] Plan: Growing Harmonies
-[] Integration
-[] Research Collaboration
-[] Trade Deal
-[] Syncretism
This works to closely align us politically and scientifically while protecting ourselves from too much disruptive economic change too quickly; it tries to reform the least sympathetic part of their culture (the recurring pseudo-autocracy thing). It works towards a cultural/diplomatic victory path. It positions both of us to get over our weaknesses (social stagnation and paralysis for them, material science and local perspective for us). This seems like a win for everyone.
I switched out Syncretism for Tolerance because I decided it would both be helpful for integration and culture victory and because it might be more interesting. Originally I was more mindful of developing a more pluralist culture, but I think we should be able to develop that either way.
Edit: after further reflection and discussion, switched Tolerance to Syncretism.
-[] Integration
-[] Research Collaboration
-[] Trade Deal
-[] Syncretism
This works to closely align us politically and scientifically while protecting ourselves from too much disruptive economic change too quickly; it tries to reform the least sympathetic part of their culture (the recurring pseudo-autocracy thing). It works towards a cultural/diplomatic victory path. It positions both of us to get over our weaknesses (social stagnation and paralysis for them, material science and local perspective for us). This seems like a win for everyone.
I switched out Syncretism for Tolerance because I decided it would both be helpful for integration and culture victory and because it might be more interesting. Originally I was more mindful of developing a more pluralist culture, but I think we should be able to develop that either way.
Edit: after further reflection and discussion, switched Tolerance to Syncretism.
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Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Plan: Mutual Prosperity & Shared Wisdom
[] Mutual Defense Pact
You will agree to an alliance, pledging to defend each other against outside threats. This is primarily a military alliance but does not preclude other forms of diplomatic relations.
[] Research Collaboration
You will not only study each other's technology, but you will also work together on shared projects. Creates additional options for joint collaboration every turn.
[] Trade Deal
You will seek a beneficial trade deal that enriches you both, while protecting your own manufacturing capacity from competition with theirs.
[] Syncretism
Not only will you tolerate their traditions, but you will actively seek to incorporate aspects of their belief system into yours, while also teaching them more of your traditions. Creates additional options for joint collaboration every turn.
The people of Sanctuary seem wise, learning from them both spiritually and scientifically seems like a very prudent move. Flexibility is our greatest strength and learning from their religion without giving up our identity seems in line with what our League stands for. Maybe our influence helps them overcome their stagnant system of governance.
A defensive pact also seems wise given the heated geopolitical climate. Sanctuary doesn't seem expansive so i don't think they are going to frivolously draw us into wars. However as of now integration seems a step too far given the unpleasant political system of Sanctuary.
Economically its important to protect our economic base, mutually beneficial trade is wise but we need to grow and develop our own economic base without becoming dependent on Sanctuary.
[] Mutual Defense Pact
You will agree to an alliance, pledging to defend each other against outside threats. This is primarily a military alliance but does not preclude other forms of diplomatic relations.
[] Research Collaboration
You will not only study each other's technology, but you will also work together on shared projects. Creates additional options for joint collaboration every turn.
[] Trade Deal
You will seek a beneficial trade deal that enriches you both, while protecting your own manufacturing capacity from competition with theirs.
[] Syncretism
Not only will you tolerate their traditions, but you will actively seek to incorporate aspects of their belief system into yours, while also teaching them more of your traditions. Creates additional options for joint collaboration every turn.
The people of Sanctuary seem wise, learning from them both spiritually and scientifically seems like a very prudent move. Flexibility is our greatest strength and learning from their religion without giving up our identity seems in line with what our League stands for. Maybe our influence helps them overcome their stagnant system of governance.
A defensive pact also seems wise given the heated geopolitical climate. Sanctuary doesn't seem expansive so i don't think they are going to frivolously draw us into wars. However as of now integration seems a step too far given the unpleasant political system of Sanctuary.
Economically its important to protect our economic base, mutually beneficial trade is wise but we need to grow and develop our own economic base without becoming dependent on Sanctuary.
Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Future integration is not impossible if we go for a military alliance now. Pursuing integration now commits us to meddling in the internal affairs of a monarchy however.
If people want to pursue the integration path religious syncretism feels absolutely necessary however!
Eh, I sort of doubt that integrating them without the Integration option would be guaranted to be possible.
Cassiemouse
Market Atheist
[] Plan: The True People Become One
-[] Integration
-[] Research Collaboration
-[] Economic Integration
-[] Syncretism
Everything on the table. We just seek to merge our two cultures in the goal of creating a Great League that will stand the test of time!
-[] Integration
-[] Research Collaboration
-[] Economic Integration
-[] Syncretism
Everything on the table. We just seek to merge our two cultures in the goal of creating a Great League that will stand the test of time!
- Location
- an unseen void
- Pronouns
- Any
After discussion and further reflection I swapped out Tolerance for Syncretism in my plan. Long-term I still want to build a pluralist culture where religious agreement isn't 100% necessary for integration, but I think it's more interesting in the short term and we have the social resources to weather any disruptions it ends up causing. Economic caution still merited.
Also I just really like these little islamic craftsman refugee dudes.
Also I just really like these little islamic craftsman refugee dudes.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Since it seems likely any winning plan will include at least one integration option:
Picking any option to integrate them creates a new mechanic, "Sanctuary Actions". You will have additional research and project opportunities every turn, ones unique to Sanctuary. You will also gain an amount of insight into their internal affairs.
You will be able to control the rate of integration and what route you take to get there. There will be a meter which when maxxed out allows you to formally join Sanctuary to the League, and individual actions can advance that, but the process involves you researching their culture, religion, and political system, rejecting what you don't like and encouraging them to change it while adopting what you do like. You don't have to acknowledge the Sheik as your immortal monarch or anything, although you will eventually have to decide what role he plays in your society.
Picking any option to integrate them creates a new mechanic, "Sanctuary Actions". You will have additional research and project opportunities every turn, ones unique to Sanctuary. You will also gain an amount of insight into their internal affairs.
You will be able to control the rate of integration and what route you take to get there. There will be a meter which when maxxed out allows you to formally join Sanctuary to the League, and individual actions can advance that, but the process involves you researching their culture, religion, and political system, rejecting what you don't like and encouraging them to change it while adopting what you do like. You don't have to acknowledge the Sheik as your immortal monarch or anything, although you will eventually have to decide what role he plays in your society.
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- Location
- the Republic
- Pronouns
- He/They
[] Plan: Growing Harmonies
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think it would be great to have Sanctuary as a member of the league, ultimately.
I was initially wanting to go for integration, to get everyone used to one another, like in @Npt170's Equal man we are plan. I was afraid of pushing this too fast and causing a backlash.
However, since the QM as specified we will be in control of the pace and nature of the integration, I feel I will vote for full integration. Obviously, lets see if they even agree to integrate with us first.
I was initially wanting to go for integration, to get everyone used to one another, like in @Npt170's Equal man we are plan. I was afraid of pushing this too fast and causing a backlash.
However, since the QM as specified we will be in control of the pace and nature of the integration, I feel I will vote for full integration. Obviously, lets see if they even agree to integrate with us first.
- Location
- Bologna
Huiii, that's a big important vote, and people are already jumping on (near-)total integration. I admit that was my first thought as well, but we should still totally talk about the potential downsides.
So, let's do this in order:
Diplomatically, I don't think a mutual defense pact will be an issue for us, since their enemies are on another planet and unlikely to seek out a small splinter faction anyways, and it doesn't seem like they have personal enmity with any local factions. That doesn't mean that having a defense pact doesn't increase the surface area we can be attacked on. Looking at the map, it doesn't seem like the aggressive polities have access to Sanctuary, but who knows about the Island folk...
Still, it seems to me that this gains us far more than they gain from us, since we aren't as militarily advanced as they seem.
Integration, though, will mean giving them access to our internal politics, just as we gain access to theirs. And since our governance is based on local rotating councils with much less power than their theocratic absolute monarchy, it seems to me that they will have a much higher "defense" to our meddling than we will have from them. Keep in mind that their overall goal as a society is spreading their cultural influence and proselytizing, so they will take advantage of their political influence to push their culture. This also gives them a valid excuse to politically incorporate further True people tribes around them, since they are now "part of the League".
On the flip side, it seems to me that in the long run we will have the advantage, since Sanctuary does seem to be quite willing to mingle cultures and absorb from around them, and we have the definite advantage in numbers, and we are no slouch in spiritual understanding and cultural strength.
Overall, integration seems risky, but not overly so, and potentially really beneficial in the long run, as completely folding sanctuary into our people will net us a good number of techs (both material and social).
Second, Technology.
Here the question becomes, how generous do we want to be? What do we stand to gain, and how afraid are we of Sanctuaries technological superiority?
It seems to me that technological stagnation is one of the main weaknesses of Sanctuary, since they don't seem to have high learning institutions or the requisite culture around knowledge. That said, they are sitting on a treasure trove of potential, which we definitely want to acquire. By giving them the connecting piece, the key they require to unlock that treasure trove (i.e. research collab), they will gain a lot more than we will, and if they are smart about integrating our learning institutions into their culture, they won't need ours anymore, allowing them to take full advantage of their head start. This is still a palatable option, as long as we bind them to us in other ways, as any form of maximum collaboration in other areas will do (Integration, Economic integration, Syncretism), preferably two. That said, Research collab is the fastest way to gain spacefaring tech and a lot of machine techs in order to access stuff from the stolen machine-army stuff, as well as perfect geometry architecture, spiritual/soul stuff, economic and social techs. At the same time, there is no big difference in this aspect between Collaboration and Agreement, and since people seem to already be tending towards total integration, we will probably mitigate the negative consequences of boosting their tech advancement.
My own preference for Purchasing Technology stems from mistrust, and its advantages lie in not giving Sanctuary too much access to our technology and culture, so it would be useless to argue for it.
// a brief aside
At this point it occurs to me that Sanctuarians are a religious splinter faction identifying themselves by their belief in reincarnation. How will they react when they realize we put into practice rituals to keep the souls of the dead bound to the earth, preventing them from moving on in the circle of transmigration? Will they consider us monstrous heretics? Do they have aspects of their spiritual practices that the True People will consider horrifying abominations against nature?
Actually, since they have been mingling with true people for generations, have they already come into contact with this part of our religious practices, @ScottishMongol ? Do we know what their stance on our communion with the dead is?
//
Third, Economy.
Here they have the greatest tech advantage, since we don't even have a currency, and they have banks. The main factor here is maybe their manufacturing capacity, since they have a lot of machines that increase their crafting output per person by a lot compared to ours. That means that probably economic integration will be followed by an immediate crisis in trade, and if we adopt their currency immediately, our economy will probably crash, and theirs will boom. That said, I don't think that will be the case, as I trust the GM to give us options on the way, i.e. "Sanctuary Actions". Still, even if we do it gradually, I believe that this is the most dangerous option for us, since they have an undeniable edge in productivity, and if we allow them to make us dependent on their production of goods, it will lead to us surrendering a lot of political and cultural influence in our relations. Trade Agreement on the other hand will be perfect, enhancing the lives of our people with more advanced goods, while holding on to a stable internal economy, allowing us (with other max integration options) to slowly close the gap between our economic capacity and theirs.
Fourth, Culture. Maybe the most tricky, but maybe also the least independently important. What I mean by that, is that our stance on culture can only influence how the actual cultural exchange will go up to a certain point. Depending on our other choices, and it looks like we are headed towards deep integration, we will intermingle with Sanctuary on multiple fronts, and cultural exchange will be impossible to prevent. Also, it seems unwise to establish close relations with them without giving them the main thing they want out of this, i.e. a larger population base to proselytize.
So, the choice seems to be between Syncretism and Tolerance; between the two I vastly prefer Tolerance, since allowing our cultures to merge gradually seems more cautious and wise, and we still don't fully know all of their culture and religion. What is the nature of the dispute with the rulers of their previous planet? Was it just the reincarnation thing? It seems there is more there.
Their culture seems heavily intertwined with the mystical properties of architecture, with which we are very compatible, and with their magical writing system (for which I admit having an irrational antipathy) and their veneration of their immortal ruler.
Which practices will our people be more receptive to? Will our people be tempted to search for the reincarnation of one of our mythical leaders? Will their more perfect architecture undermine the trust in our own and thus weaken our large scale rituals (which we know are dependent on people's accumulated emotions and belief)?
Adoption of their writing system is inevitable already, since it's just so useful for a bunch of professions while we have nothing comparable (before citing our "communion with ancestors" tech, think more of short-term reminders of business-relevant information, quick reference material, putting down thoughts to parse them or explain them, make calculations on "paper", rather than long term preservation of knowledge, for which spirits are admittedly better).
So in order to find out more about their culture before we adopt it, I believe Tolerance to be the better choice. It's not like they asked us to adopt it anyway, they seem perfectly content to spread it gradually.
Having thought this out maybe a bit too much, it seems I will be voting for
[] Plan: Cautious Embrace
[] Integration
[] Research Collaboration
[] Trade Deal
[] Tolerance
A plan which ultimately is still pushing for integration of Sanctuary into our own sphere of influence, and seeks to maximize the potential advantages by embracing them in areas where we have the advantage, while remaining careful not to expose ourselves to their areas of strength.
So, let's do this in order:
Diplomatically, I don't think a mutual defense pact will be an issue for us, since their enemies are on another planet and unlikely to seek out a small splinter faction anyways, and it doesn't seem like they have personal enmity with any local factions. That doesn't mean that having a defense pact doesn't increase the surface area we can be attacked on. Looking at the map, it doesn't seem like the aggressive polities have access to Sanctuary, but who knows about the Island folk...
Still, it seems to me that this gains us far more than they gain from us, since we aren't as militarily advanced as they seem.
Integration, though, will mean giving them access to our internal politics, just as we gain access to theirs. And since our governance is based on local rotating councils with much less power than their theocratic absolute monarchy, it seems to me that they will have a much higher "defense" to our meddling than we will have from them. Keep in mind that their overall goal as a society is spreading their cultural influence and proselytizing, so they will take advantage of their political influence to push their culture. This also gives them a valid excuse to politically incorporate further True people tribes around them, since they are now "part of the League".
On the flip side, it seems to me that in the long run we will have the advantage, since Sanctuary does seem to be quite willing to mingle cultures and absorb from around them, and we have the definite advantage in numbers, and we are no slouch in spiritual understanding and cultural strength.
Overall, integration seems risky, but not overly so, and potentially really beneficial in the long run, as completely folding sanctuary into our people will net us a good number of techs (both material and social).
Second, Technology.
Here the question becomes, how generous do we want to be? What do we stand to gain, and how afraid are we of Sanctuaries technological superiority?
It seems to me that technological stagnation is one of the main weaknesses of Sanctuary, since they don't seem to have high learning institutions or the requisite culture around knowledge. That said, they are sitting on a treasure trove of potential, which we definitely want to acquire. By giving them the connecting piece, the key they require to unlock that treasure trove (i.e. research collab), they will gain a lot more than we will, and if they are smart about integrating our learning institutions into their culture, they won't need ours anymore, allowing them to take full advantage of their head start. This is still a palatable option, as long as we bind them to us in other ways, as any form of maximum collaboration in other areas will do (Integration, Economic integration, Syncretism), preferably two. That said, Research collab is the fastest way to gain spacefaring tech and a lot of machine techs in order to access stuff from the stolen machine-army stuff, as well as perfect geometry architecture, spiritual/soul stuff, economic and social techs. At the same time, there is no big difference in this aspect between Collaboration and Agreement, and since people seem to already be tending towards total integration, we will probably mitigate the negative consequences of boosting their tech advancement.
My own preference for Purchasing Technology stems from mistrust, and its advantages lie in not giving Sanctuary too much access to our technology and culture, so it would be useless to argue for it.
// a brief aside
At this point it occurs to me that Sanctuarians are a religious splinter faction identifying themselves by their belief in reincarnation. How will they react when they realize we put into practice rituals to keep the souls of the dead bound to the earth, preventing them from moving on in the circle of transmigration? Will they consider us monstrous heretics? Do they have aspects of their spiritual practices that the True People will consider horrifying abominations against nature?
Actually, since they have been mingling with true people for generations, have they already come into contact with this part of our religious practices, @ScottishMongol ? Do we know what their stance on our communion with the dead is?
//
Third, Economy.
Here they have the greatest tech advantage, since we don't even have a currency, and they have banks. The main factor here is maybe their manufacturing capacity, since they have a lot of machines that increase their crafting output per person by a lot compared to ours. That means that probably economic integration will be followed by an immediate crisis in trade, and if we adopt their currency immediately, our economy will probably crash, and theirs will boom. That said, I don't think that will be the case, as I trust the GM to give us options on the way, i.e. "Sanctuary Actions". Still, even if we do it gradually, I believe that this is the most dangerous option for us, since they have an undeniable edge in productivity, and if we allow them to make us dependent on their production of goods, it will lead to us surrendering a lot of political and cultural influence in our relations. Trade Agreement on the other hand will be perfect, enhancing the lives of our people with more advanced goods, while holding on to a stable internal economy, allowing us (with other max integration options) to slowly close the gap between our economic capacity and theirs.
Fourth, Culture. Maybe the most tricky, but maybe also the least independently important. What I mean by that, is that our stance on culture can only influence how the actual cultural exchange will go up to a certain point. Depending on our other choices, and it looks like we are headed towards deep integration, we will intermingle with Sanctuary on multiple fronts, and cultural exchange will be impossible to prevent. Also, it seems unwise to establish close relations with them without giving them the main thing they want out of this, i.e. a larger population base to proselytize.
So, the choice seems to be between Syncretism and Tolerance; between the two I vastly prefer Tolerance, since allowing our cultures to merge gradually seems more cautious and wise, and we still don't fully know all of their culture and religion. What is the nature of the dispute with the rulers of their previous planet? Was it just the reincarnation thing? It seems there is more there.
Their culture seems heavily intertwined with the mystical properties of architecture, with which we are very compatible, and with their magical writing system (for which I admit having an irrational antipathy) and their veneration of their immortal ruler.
Which practices will our people be more receptive to? Will our people be tempted to search for the reincarnation of one of our mythical leaders? Will their more perfect architecture undermine the trust in our own and thus weaken our large scale rituals (which we know are dependent on people's accumulated emotions and belief)?
Adoption of their writing system is inevitable already, since it's just so useful for a bunch of professions while we have nothing comparable (before citing our "communion with ancestors" tech, think more of short-term reminders of business-relevant information, quick reference material, putting down thoughts to parse them or explain them, make calculations on "paper", rather than long term preservation of knowledge, for which spirits are admittedly better).
So in order to find out more about their culture before we adopt it, I believe Tolerance to be the better choice. It's not like they asked us to adopt it anyway, they seem perfectly content to spread it gradually.
Having thought this out maybe a bit too much, it seems I will be voting for
[] Plan: Cautious Embrace
[] Integration
[] Research Collaboration
[] Trade Deal
[] Tolerance
A plan which ultimately is still pushing for integration of Sanctuary into our own sphere of influence, and seeks to maximize the potential advantages by embracing them in areas where we have the advantage, while remaining careful not to expose ourselves to their areas of strength.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Funnily enough, if we do end up in a cultural arms race re: conversion and integration, out cultural grants may be a key advantage.
It pleases me if that's what happens, given arts funding if often dismissed as unimportant.
It pleases me if that's what happens, given arts funding if often dismissed as unimportant.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
They're an evangelizing religion because they believe it's better to stay reincarnated into this world, why is a matter of theology we'll get into.
They don't believe reincarnation is incompatible with an afterlife - several Dharmic religions IRL include afterlives as a stopover between reincarnations, and it's possible their doctrine allows people to "opt out" if they don't actually want to reincarnate. So they don't find your tradition abhorrent, simply inadequate.
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IamtooSleepy
I came here to be an ant
Speak from personal experience as a Buddhist, at least in where I am, I would also say that we also have a syncretism where the idea of reincarnation also exist beside idea of spirits and ghost, at least, on the popular understanding level. Things is a bit more unaccpeted if you look at canon text level. But all in all, I would not worry too much about that, especially if they actually see our spirit work in action. They can just say those are just a particular case or that our spirit are just another form of life that people can get reincarnate into.
I also thing concern about their political structure is a bit..not exactly unwarranted, but I think still overestmated, since from what we know, their social research capability is terrible. If anything else, I would expect them to adopt our social organisation form just as we would adopt their religion, especially if we actively collaborate and having them see how it's work.
Finally, I also wonder how would technology spread be handle? Would we just naturally adopt to using Arabic as our alphabet overtime because of increase contract or would it still be something we still have to put research point into?
I also thing concern about their political structure is a bit..not exactly unwarranted, but I think still overestmated, since from what we know, their social research capability is terrible. If anything else, I would expect them to adopt our social organisation form just as we would adopt their religion, especially if we actively collaborate and having them see how it's work.
Finally, I also wonder how would technology spread be handle? Would we just naturally adopt to using Arabic as our alphabet overtime because of increase contract or would it still be something we still have to put research point into?
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
There are parts of the Muslim world where Arabic is only used as a liturgical language and isn't used in administration, science, literature, or everyday life.
- Location
- an unseen void
- Pronouns
- Any
I don't think this part is true. Both mechanically (it sounds like the integration actions are largely based around our own choices) and fictionally (they are not an aggressively reactionary-idealized monarchy so much as they've stuck onto a charismatic leader through inertia and their incredibly low social science score making them slow to adapt), they seem to have the lower hand here. We are many many times their number, a much larger and more complex and more flexible political system, and we're going through a golden age of cultural production and economic expansion.
In economic production I agree that they have the chance to overwhelm and change us, and in research we have lopsided comparative advantages, but I think politically and culturally we have a distinct upper hand here, both for social science reasons and because of the differences in the size and development of our cultures.
These different conclusions led us to the same point on political integration but it's a significant part of why I moved to syncretize instead of tolerate our different religious currents.
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