Glory to the machines! (Empire Builder) Thread 2

[Ginger Maniac]

I really don't see this battle being anything less than an act of war if we're talking about another polity's ships here.

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Oh yeah, we're definitely at war now. I'm assuming that they have some form of FTL comms as well, so they'll have sent a contact report off at the very least. If only the cruiser had a comm node then they probably won't have sent a follow-up message, so all that their admiralty will know for sure is that the fleet met some unknowns then abruptly went silent. Easy to work out what happened, but no hard data regarding our capabilities makes it out of the system unless a ship escapes. Near-flawless victory, on the intelligence level.

If the frigates have comm nodes, then I expect we won't be able to stop them signalling, but hopefully they'll only be able to send a limited amount of information, rather than reams of sensor data. Not something I want, but I can live with it. If a ship escapes, though, we're in trouble. It will have full sensor records of the battle that their analysts can pore over, so they'll essentially be able to learn everything our ships can do at the moment. Very much a scenario to avoid.

As for the rest of the analysis, it looks pretty sensible, so we'll just have to see how things pan out.

 

[Karugus]

Oh yeah, we're definitely at war now. I'm assuming that they have some form of FTL comms as well, so they'll have sent a contact report off at the very least. If only the cruiser had a comm node then they probably won't have sent a follow-up message, so all that their admiralty will know for sure is that the fleet met some unknowns then abruptly went silent. Easy to work out what happened, but no hard data regarding our capabilities makes it out of the system unless a ship escapes. Near-flawless victory, on the intelligence level.

If the frigates have comm nodes, then I expect we won't be able to stop them signalling, but hopefully they'll only be able to send a limited amount of information, rather than reams of sensor data. Not something I want, but I can live with it. If a ship escapes, though, we're in trouble. It will have full sensor records of the battle that their analysts can pore over, so they'll essentially be able to learn everything our ships can do at the moment. Very much a scenario to avoid.

As for the rest of the analysis, it looks pretty sensible, so we'll just have to see how things pan out.

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Presumably some of the data on our ships will remain relatively ambiguous. Armor plating and hull composites for one are something they can probably at best guess at. Our targeting/operational computers as another. Presumably they'll have no idea they're looking at a race of AI either.

A lot of the scary shit about the Carmote (besides disproportionate firepower in the form of PBs) aren't readily apparent from an outside perspective.

 

[Ginger Maniac]

Presumably some of the data on our ships will remain relatively ambiguous. Armor plating and hull composites for one are something they can probably at best guess at.

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This is true. Even if they get some spectrographics of vaporised plating, all they'll know is that we make extensive use of carbon in our armour. And given just how many allotropes the stuff has, that won't tell them much of anything.

But they will have data on things like acceleration numbers, particle beam output, how much punishment our shields can take before failing, ECM strength, and so on so forth. And I'd rather that sort of info remain in our hands as long as possible to milk as much advantage from uncertainty as we can.

 

[Karugus]

ow much punishment our shields can take before failing

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We primarily use Ion shields, which are useless against anything but radiation. Our Plasma shields haven't hit production yet- thankfully. As for everything you've said, I'd like to keep that info as much underwraps as possible. As for how much info any one of these ships brings back is up for debate though. These ships are relatively small, and that means they don't have a lot of room for an extensive sensor suit if they want to be effective warships. Even if they have a full spectrum of scanning equipment it's fidelity is probably going to be relatively low.

Combine the presumably low quality of their sensors with; the particle streams from the PBs, the detonations of megaton yield explosives, debris scattering, and the sheer speed in which the battle occurred is going to affect any cohesive or in depth intelligence on our ships.

I mean, barring utterly bad rolls, our next salvo will destroy the rest of the current force in system. Considering we're inside of 500 km in space missing doesn't seem like a major risk. I don't know how long it takes our PBs to cycle but presumably it's not long.

 

[Isaacssv558]

I really don't see this battle being anything less than an act of war if we're talking about another polity's ships here. Unless we're looking at refugees, privateers, mega-corps, or just out and out pirates this many casualties are going to evoke a response. I mean, we're probably talking well upwards of a thousand bodies with conservative estimates.

That being said, there's still some odd things in play here. The hull irregularities, the weapons employed, the scope of the scouting force. It just doesn't quite add up. Missiles seem to be all about high-intensity alpha strikes, where the goal is to gut the enemy fleet as fast as possible before a response can be made. They're also logistics and resource intensive to produce and supply a fleet with. Assuming these guys have rough tech parity than we're talking about AM/M missiles- that's going to require a lot of AM production to support. Something I wouldn't expect most private enterprises to be able to really afford, certainly not something refugees or pirates would have a lot of access to.

Looking at their OoB more- I'm convinced this is some kind of Force Recon or Picket Fleet. The CA was obviously some kind of Flagship for the flotilla we're looking at, but the 120m Cutters presumably don't have the endurance for any long distance voyage without any sort of Fleet Tender. Especially if they're relying on missiles as their primary weapons. So it's presumably was some kind of frigate squadron with a cruiser leader. I'm thinking we can almost certainly expect either reinforcements or a retreat so that they can form up with the rest of their fleet.

@Isaacssv558 what can we determine about their drives systems by the ships' acceleration/maneuvers and the output of the drives themselves. At 500 km we should easily be able to tell if they have AM/M drives like us simply by how much neutrinos they're putting out. And do missiles perform better at short or longer ranges?

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The escorts have fusion drives, but the flagship had an AM/M drive.

Missiles can have extremely long ranges but the more space used for thrusters the less you have for a warhead. You could have a 20,000km range bombardment missile to hit the enemy from outside their range, or a 200m range armored torpedo for close range brawls. In general, a longer range means more volleys before your opponent closes and faster missiles that can better evade PD, but also means less powerful warheads and more PD to evade. (The PD takes out a given percentage of missiles for every 100km, with both range and distance taken into effect.)

 

[Isaacssv558]

We primarily use Ion shields, which are useless against anything but radiation. Our Plasma shields haven't hit production yet- thankfully. As for everything you've said, I'd like to keep that info as much underwraps as possible. As for how much info any one of these ships brings back is up for debate though. These ships are relatively small, and that means they don't have a lot of room for an extensive sensor suit if they want to be effective warships. Even if they have a full spectrum of scanning equipment it's fidelity is probably going to be relatively low.

Combine the presumably low quality of their sensors with; the particle streams from the PBs, the detonations of megaton yield explosives, debris scattering, and the sheer speed in which the battle occurred is going to affect any cohesive or in depth intelligence on our ships.

I mean, barring utterly bad rolls, our next salvo will destroy the rest of the current force in system. Considering we're inside of 500 km in space missing doesn't seem like a major risk. I don't know how long it takes our PBs to cycle but presumably it's not long.

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I'm changing Ion shields to be an abstraction included on every ship, they'll basically just provide protection from solar radiation and make radiation weapons fairly ineffective. Having 1% of the ship set aside for such a minor benefit was a massive pain. Plasma shields really aren't that effective until level 2, at level 1 they can't be active simultaneous to the weapons.

 

[Ginger Maniac]

We primarily use Ion shields, which are useless against anything but radiation. Our Plasma shields haven't hit production yet- thankfully.

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I just checked the ships list, and you're absolutely right. I must have been having a memory malfunction when I typed that. Whoops.

Yeah, the cutters are small enough that they'll have to make choices somewhere in the design process. And given how many of them are in the same place, it seems likely that they're weapon-focused rather than sensor-focused. Sensor-heavy ships aren't the sort of thing you concentrate like this - you disperse them among other ships to provide detection support. Unless some of them are sensor-types and the rest are combatants, at any rate. But we'd hopefully be able to spot the increased emissions from them if that were the case, and target preferentially.

Hmm. Now that I've had a think about it, a ship escaping might not be as bad as I first imagined. Something to prevent if possible, but not the end of the world.

Ping.

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Do any of the remaining enemy ships look like they have a more comprehensive sensor fit than the others of their size class?

 

[Karugus]

Missiles can have extremely long ranges but the more space used for thrusters the less you have for a warhead. You could have a 20,000km range bombardment missile to hit the enemy from outside their range, or a 200m range armored torpedo for close range brawls. In general, a longer range means more volleys before your opponent closes and faster missiles that can better evade PD, but also means less powerful warheads and more PD to evade. (The PD takes out a given percentage of missiles for every 100km, with both range and distance taken into effect.)

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Hmm. Short-ranged torpedoes seem like they'd favor the cutters more than long range volleys would. At what range did they get a missile lock? And is it shorter than our locks for our PBs?

 

[Isaacssv558]

Do any of the remaining enemy ships look like they have a more comprehensive sensor fit than the others of their size class?

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No

Hmm. Short-ranged torpedoes seem like they'd favor the cutters more than long range volleys would. At what range did they get a missile lock? And is it shorter than our locks for our PBs?

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Targeting locks are frequently obtainable beyond maximum effective range. For example, see your warning shots. Shooting beyond maximum range drastically reduces accuracy, and often damage, but targeting is still possible. Missing generally happens because the target evaded or the targeting was jammed, not because the enemy is outside of the sensor's targeting range, which can be shared between ships. That said, they obtained the lock at around 5,000km.

EDIT: A torpedo with a listed range of 100m would still be able to hit a frigate at 100,000km if it stayed completely still. It would take awhile to reach it, but it would get there eventually.

 

[Karugus]

Targeting locks are frequently obtainable beyond maximum effective range. For example, see your warning shots. Shooting beyond maximum range drastically reduces accuracy, and often damage, but targeting is still possible. Missing generally happens because the target evaded or the targeting was jammed, not because the enemy is outside of the sensor's targeting range, which can be shared between ships. That said, they obtained the lock at around 5,000km.

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Well beyond our max range. Hmm. I'd probably advise we try and maintain a range of 1,300 km then. At the edge of our optimal range but it gives us some time to maneuver if they put some 'fish in the water' so to speak.

I have to ask- how long has it been since the sacking of Darth? Because if the other races still exist we have the Randera who saw it and are in the Galactic neighborhood. It would explain why they're here, why they panicked on finding our ships, and why their ships seem skewed towards logistically intensive but high performance weapon systems.

And looking back at the OP; man you guys weren't kidding when you said the {Monsters} bombarded Darth- no atmosphere and no oceans they practically glassed the planet at that point. Also, curious to see just how bloody and violent our interactions will get if we ever encounter the Skander. That can't possibly end in anything other than blood from where I'm standing.

[X] Pull back to 1300 km in such a fashion that we've encircled the Enemy Fleet. Try to disable one of the 300m ships, destroy the rest. If any ships begin emitting a signature that indicates a jump-focus fire. Prepare to fall back into formation if reinforcements jump in. Operate on the expectation that time is limited.

 

[Isaacssv558]

Well beyond our max range. Hmm. I'd probably advise we try and maintain a range of 1,000 km then. Well inside of our optimal range (1,300) but gives us some time to maneuver if they put some 'fish in the water' so to speak.

I have to ask- how long has it been since the sacking of Darth? Because if the other races still exist we have the Randera who saw it and are in the Galactic neighborhood. It would explain why they're here, why they panicked on finding our ships, and why their ships seem skewed towards logistically intensive but high performance weapon systems.

And looking back at the OP; man you guys weren't kidding when you said the {Monsters} bombarded Darth- no atmosphere and no oceans they practically glassed the planet at that point. Also, curious to see just how bloody and violent our interactions will get if we ever encounter the Skander. That can't possibly end in anything other than blood from where I'm standing.

[X] Pull back to 1000 km in such a fashion that we've encircled the Enemy Fleet. Try to disable one of the 300m ships, destroy the rest. If any ships begin emitting a signature that indicates a jump-focus fire.

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It's been 45 years. Turn one started 30 years out and you are now at the tail end of your third 5 year turn.

Don't forget the {Monsters} also removed the vast majority of usable minerals and valuable elements from the crust. That's why Darth is currently reliant on Mantle extractors instead of the mines everywhere else uses.

Also, them getting a lock at 5,000km doesn't indicate a 5,000km range, it could, in theory, be anything from 5 to 15,000 kilometers. It's more likely to be between 500 and 7,500 kilometers, given your IC knowledge of, theoretical, missile systems.

 

[Karugus]

Also, them getting a lock at 5,000km doesn't indicate a 5,000km range, it could, in theory, be anything from 5 to 15,000 kilometers. It's more likely to be between 500 and 7,500 kilometers, given your IC knowledge of, theoretical, missile systems.

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Oh I know, but range favors us here. It doesn't affect our damage output, we should be faster considering our AM/M drives, and it gives our PD systems maximum time on target. Considering how heavily we outmass them now, that PD is going to be disproportionately effective. We can afford to open up the gap and avoid any costly knife fighting missile runs.

 

[Isaacssv558]

Oh I know, but range favors us here. It doesn't affect our damage output, we should be faster considering our AM/M drives, and it gives our PD systems maximum time on target. Considering how heavily we outmass them now, that PD is going to be disproportionately effective. We can afford to open up the gap and avoid any costly knife fighting missile runs.

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Fair enough. I misinterpreted "Well beyond our max range."

 

[Karugus]

Fair enough. I misinterpreted "Well beyond our max range."

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That was me hoping we could sit outside lock on range at all and plink at them unthreatened. Which would be like 2250 km. That would be nice even if it was a pipe dream of mine.

Hmm. Looking at the front page, our upper limit on our optimal range is 1300 on both our PBs and our lasers. Considering we should have faster *and* more responsive ships I think I'll shift that on my plan.

 

[Tabron89]

Well, after this battle is over, don't forget that we need more XMAT production.

 

[Tabron89]

Hate to double post, but it won't appear in the alert bar if I don't....I think?

[x] Plan Infinite Space

[x] Pull back all ships at maximum acceleration, in reverse without flipping around the ships by 180 degrees if possible to 1250 KM away from enemy fleet, with PDL active and attempt evasive manuveurs.
-[x] Once at range, bombard enemy with particle cannons.

 

[Isaacssv558]

I don't see any issue with a second post two days later. I'll be leaving the combat vote open as the next update will be a story interlude to flesh out the Carmote's character outside of WoG. (I'm aiming to cover most of the points I made in WoG, plus a bit extra, in an actual interlude.)

 

[Ginger Maniac]

I think attempting to withdraw may be a mistake. Yes, close-in combat is a meat grinder, but I suspect that it's far too late to try pulling back without making our ships even more vulnerable to return fire.

If we're going to use this as a regular tactic, though, we might want some spearhead-type ships with monstrous amounts of armour and firepower. We can skimp on engines because they'll be jumping into the battle anyway, so no need for massive acceleration numbers to get them through the enemy's fields of fire.

Perhaps missile boats, since missiles do massive damage and the shorter the range the less effective point defence is.

 

[Tabron89]

If they do go for missile spam, then being further away is a good idea.

The further away, the more the PD works.

EDIT: Huh, our ships don't have plasma shields....we ought to research the lvl 2 plasma shields and install them.

Our ships are a mix of fusion driven and m/am driven ships, coupled with AIs with higher response times.

So we should have an evasion advantage.

 

[Isaacssv558]

Freespace 2 Open Blueplanet has some good examples of space warfare based around jumping in and immediately firing off a barrage. Nothing in the game can survive a shock-jump by a full GTA fleet, with a force as small as 3 corvettes being capable of instagibbing most Sol ships. The recharge time is obscene, but that doesn't matter when the enemy is destroyed in the first 5 seconds of the engagement.

 

[Tabron89]

Are our particle beam cannons internal or they in turret mounts?

Just asking.

 

[Isaacssv558]

Both are possible.

 

[Tabron89]

Both are possible.

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So...now it becomes a question of whether or not our current ships can actually fire on the enemy while pulling back to avoid MMM, or if we would have to change course, manuveur, then take aim again...

 

[Philosoraptor31]

[x] Battle Plan: Mopping Up
-- Knock out all remaining Enemy ships before any can flee. Use as much force as necessary, but try to leave debris for later analysis. (The laboratories can learn a lot more from wreckage than expanding clouds of hot gas.)
-- Avenger to prepare to counter desperation gambits. The Enemy is in no position to leave any of their capabilities in reserve, and in either calculation or panic they will use against us everything they can. (The main body of our fleet is too closely engaged with the Enemy to do anything more complex than fight to survive, but Avenger has enough distance from the battle to decide when and where to commit its guns for maximum effect.)
-- Disco to screen Avenger if combat capable, or if the failure of the warp drive had knock-on effects throughout the ship's systems then remain with the transports.

As to how I thought the actual writing/deciding how the 100 roll changed things, you could say that the fleet had been prepping to do a practice exercise further out (so their jump drives were already cycled up) to help ready themselves for combat just before the call for aid came in, and that good timing and accuracy comes from the 100 roll. I thought the writing was pretty good and any obvious concerns have already been mentioned.

 

[Isaacssv558]

As to how I thought the actual writing/deciding how the 100 roll changed things, you could say that the fleet had been prepping to do a practice exercise further out (so their jump drives were already cycled up) to help ready themselves for combat just before the call for aid came in, and that good timing and accuracy comes from the 100 roll. I thought the writing was pretty good and any obvious concerns have already been mentioned.

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If the drives were already active it would have taken 3 minutes at the most, 40c is really fast for in-system travel. The jump drive roll basically just meant that the initial jump sequence was performed more or less flawlessly, with the nat 100 leading to a beyond-flawless exit. I'll probably give more specifics in the AAR.