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- nullptr
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Glory to the machines! (Empire Builder) Thread 2
- Thread starter Isaacssv558
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- his hidden lair
Still not a huge fan of Ship Girls- mechanically it's fundamentally a 'bad' choice in that it removes narrative and storytelling potential by removing conflict and story developments between foreign polities in that it makes the Carmotes relatively transparent. I mean, the epic shitstorm that would ensue if a bunch of Carbonites accused the Carmotes of genociding their Creators would be a sight to see. It also seems to encourage a pseudo cult of personality and cults of personalities are kinda overdone. Say no to Ship Girls kids! Vote for Emotionless machines and get an AI Death Cult!
@GardenerBriareus
@I just write
@Ginger Maniac
@FullNothingness
Normally I don't chain tag, but in this case if we want anything other than Ship Girls, we need to consolidate.
Edit: Well I completely forgot to check the timestamp on the post above mine. Apologies everyone.
@GardenerBriareus
@I just write
@Ginger Maniac
@FullNothingness
Normally I don't chain tag, but in this case if we want anything other than Ship Girls, we need to consolidate.
Edit: Well I completely forgot to check the timestamp on the post above mine. Apologies everyone.
We Just Write
Blatantly Plural
- Location
- New England
- Pronouns
- Plural
I'm still for Living Ship.
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- nullptr
Firstly, on the topic of the vote's result, Ship Girls had a clear majority, twice the votes of any other option, and I needed to close the vote in order to finish the update. Secondly, Ship Girls are boost to organic diplomacy, not a cure-all, and misunderstandings are still inevitable (depending on who you meet.) The Carbonites would only have concluded you slaughtered your creators on a 1-5 crit fail, Ship-Girls lowers it to natural 1. There is still a very real chance the Carbonites become concerned about your plans to exterminate the {Monsters} or any number of other concerns. For example, a high, but non-crit, roll might have them thinking the Androids (Ship-Girls' bodies are basically just glorified drones.) are your actual bodies and you just use alot of, non-AI, automation in your ships.
On the topic of the cult of personality, that has a very low chance of happening. The Carmote-Rektian relationships are basically just normal human relationships that develop better and more easily. The Ship-Girls aren't perfect imitations of Rektian minds so SG-Carmote relationships won't be quite as effective. How exactly it develops depends on your choices, but Carmote-SG relationships are basically just human standard with a lowered chance of negative relationships. (Carmote have a difficultly feeling hate. The fact their hatred of the {monsters} is absolute nonetheless isn't lost on them.)
The big deal isn't that the SGs are going to rapidly accumulate followers, but that some Carmote will start to have what we would term "close friends". Most Carmote won't be affected, as the SGs are a small minority and the "control by relationship" plan relied on the fact Carmote were massively outnumbered by Rektians. Most Rektians had no Carmote friends, but all Carmote were on friends with the Rektians they interacted with on a regular basis, and professional with the Carmote they interacted with on a regular basis.
- Location
- his hidden lair
I'm not trying to come across as petty if that's how it seems, it was more a last ditch attempt at arguing the point even if only to foster more discussion. I'm more upset that pretty much no one voting Ship Girls bothered to argue the issues and the QM was the only one really defending it than I am it won. Don't get me wrong, I like how you're handling things and it's certainly been useful in fleshing out Carmotes as both a species and a culture, I just wish people had taken the information you provided and tried to discuss it or anything really.
More than anything, you're feedback on the issue has me convinced we're in good hands regardless of the choice- so thank you for that.
Combat Interlude 2
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- nullptr
Combat interlude 2: Invisitext Warning
Carmote Unity Navy Theater Command Network:
CUN-CC-0001-c-f "Archimedes"
Archimedes stood on the command deck nervously watching the view-screens as the {maybe-monsters} crept closer. Her curved form had gained her many compliments on her understanding of Rektian aesthetic design but she almost regretted not disguising a processor block as a misshapen lump of lipids, as some of her more, unusual, sisters had done. She knew it was irrational, that the additional processors wouldn't provide a noticeable benefit, but she couldn't help but worry she'd miss something crucial in the damnably obtuse gravitational sensor data.
"You ready?" she said.
"As I'll ever be." responded Disco.
"Alright, let's hope it scares them off."
"If they really are {Monsters} I'd rather they stick around till the fleet arrives."
"Not sure, I could probably make it in about 5 minutes, but I took a training course before the test." Said Horizon, calmly rebraiding her hair into that of a feudal aristocrat as her clothes shifted to match.
"Not good," replied Disco, "I'd give them closer to half an hour to merely get the Drives online, you can't exactly just flip a switch when disabling relativity."
"What the fuck." Disco and Archimedes summarized in tandem.
[X] Write-In: Battle Plan
Carmote Unity Navy Theater Command Network:
CUN-Fr-1-0001-r-t: Command received; Sending communication in Rektian, insufficient data for Terran broadcast.
CUN-CC-1-0001-r-r: Assuming command of local forces.
Updating Designations
CUN-Fr-1-0001-c-e: Communication sent; No reply received, contacts accelerating.
CUN-CC-1-0001-c-f: Permission to open fire?
Relaying Request
CUN-HQ-Renarth-Darth: Permission denied; Warning shots only.
Relaying Orders
CUN-CC-1-0001-r-r: Assuming command of local forces.
Updating Designations
CUN-Fr-1-0001-c-e: Communication sent; No reply received, contacts accelerating.
CUN-CC-1-0001-c-f: Permission to open fire?
Relaying Request
CUN-HQ-Renarth-Darth: Permission denied; Warning shots only.
Relaying Orders
CUN-CC-0001-c-f "Archimedes"
Archimedes stood on the command deck nervously watching the view-screens as the {maybe-monsters} crept closer. Her curved form had gained her many compliments on her understanding of Rektian aesthetic design but she almost regretted not disguising a processor block as a misshapen lump of lipids, as some of her more, unusual, sisters had done. She knew it was irrational, that the additional processors wouldn't provide a noticeable benefit, but she couldn't help but worry she'd miss something crucial in the damnably obtuse gravitational sensor data.
She prepared firing solutions and calculated trajectories as she pored through the sensor data.
Archimedes turned her attention to another view-screen and addressed her sister Disco."You ready?" she said.
"As I'll ever be." responded Disco.
"Alright, let's hope it scares them off."
"If they really are {Monsters} I'd rather they stick around till the fleet arrives."
The network commanded and she obeyed, relaying the command to fire as she aimed her Particle Cannons at the enemy.
"How long do you think it'll be, HQ won't give me an ETA." said Archimedes as she fidgeted with her hair; currently in an early information era style."Not sure, I could probably make it in about 5 minutes, but I took a training course before the test." Said Horizon, calmly rebraiding her hair into that of a feudal aristocrat as her clothes shifted to match.
The two ships fired as with a single thought, beams of relativistic particles lancing into the void.
The two women abandoned their auburn hair and turned their attention to the primary viewports with a look of determination on their faces as the decoherent particle streams washed over the other fleet.The pair franticly optimized their thermal distribution systems as they hurriedly cooled their Particle Cannons, just in case.
Archimedes have a small sign of relief as the {strangers} turned away, only to tense a moment later as the alarm signaled a missile lock. "Damn that's loud; why did I think it would be a good idea to install an authentic late-Dreadnought era alert system?" she thought.The warship Archimedes brought her PD array to full readiness in an instant as she detected multiple missile locks.
She turned towards the image of Disco, saying "You were more involved with the Warp training program, what's the chance the fleet can make it in 10 minutes?""Not good," replied Disco, "I'd give them closer to half an hour to merely get the Drives online, you can't exactly just flip a switch when disabling relativity."
Archimedes' gravitational sensors went into overdrive as she detected 44 incoming jump signatures.
Archimedes gave a startled cry of "look" as she turned to the central viewport, where she saw 40% of the Carmote fleet Warp in a mere 500km from the {maybe-monsters} and released a barrage of particle beams, annihilating the Heavy Cruiser and 23 of its escorts before they registered the Carmote's appearance."What the fuck." Disco and Archimedes summarized in tandem.
The cruiser Archimedes accelerated towards the battle, already querying the fleet on the Alien vessel's capabilities.
I would greatly appreciate feedback as this is my first time writing either dialogue or an action scene. Also, the invixsitext is rather important to the scene.
120m - 10
300m - 7
300m - 7
- Renarth 12
- CUNFr Disco
- CUN Fr-1: 40
- CUN CC-1: 5
- CUNCA Archimedes
- Darth
- CUN Fr-1: 59
- CUN CC-1: 6
[X] Write-In: Battle Plan
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Ginger Maniac
Subject to Gravity
- Location
- Old Blighty
Alrighty then. First blood to us, in spectacular style. 
That's the Enemy's only heavy unit gone, and the mediums are of similar displacement to our frigates. I doubt the lights have the tonnage to really hurt our ships, unless they're using seventy percent of their mass on weapons or something.
That's the Enemy's only heavy unit gone, and the mediums are of similar displacement to our frigates. I doubt the lights have the tonnage to really hurt our ships, unless they're using seventy percent of their mass on weapons or something.
We Just Write
Blatantly Plural
- Location
- New England
- Pronouns
- Plural
Wait a second. @Isaacssv558 Is this the Da-[BLAMMED for Spoilers]?
Ginger Maniac
Subject to Gravity
- Location
- Old Blighty
[x] Battle Plan: Mopping Up
-- Knock out all remaining Enemy ships before any can flee. Use as much force as necessary, but try to leave debris for later analysis. (The laboratories can learn a lot more from wreckage than expanding clouds of hot gas.)
-- Avenger to prepare to counter desperation gambits. The Enemy is in no position to leave any of their capabilities in reserve, and in either calculation or panic they will use against us everything they can. (The main body of our fleet is too closely engaged with the Enemy to do anything more complex than fight to survive, but Avenger has enough distance from the battle to decide when and where to commit its guns for maximum effect.)
-- Disco to screen Avenger if combat capable, or if the failure of the warp drive had knock-on effects throughout the ship's systems then remain with the transports.
Rationale behind the plan is that we've just skullfucked half their fleet in the opening salvo, including their heaviest vessel, so we shouldn't have too much trouble taking care of the rest. And we do need to do that - we can't let any of them escape, and we don't have the ability to communicate and demand their surrender, so we just have to insist they stay using the universal language of violence.
Secondly, we can make spare parts much more easily than we can acquire more enemy wreckage to peek at, and while we can and should send freighters out to collect as much as possible, we have a squadron here that can bring back an initial cargo in half the time it would take to get more spacelift out and back again. We can also recover the spares later, hopefully.
Thirdly, prisoners to interrogate are more valuable than corpses. Let's see if we shot the right people.
EDIT: Plan changed to cover only the end of the battle. We can handle repair and salvage afterwards. Added in a line about Avenger acting as a tactical reserve for if anything unexpected pops up.
-- Knock out all remaining Enemy ships before any can flee. Use as much force as necessary, but try to leave debris for later analysis. (The laboratories can learn a lot more from wreckage than expanding clouds of hot gas.)
-- Avenger to prepare to counter desperation gambits. The Enemy is in no position to leave any of their capabilities in reserve, and in either calculation or panic they will use against us everything they can. (The main body of our fleet is too closely engaged with the Enemy to do anything more complex than fight to survive, but Avenger has enough distance from the battle to decide when and where to commit its guns for maximum effect.)
-- Disco to screen Avenger if combat capable, or if the failure of the warp drive had knock-on effects throughout the ship's systems then remain with the transports.
Rationale behind the plan is that we've just skullfucked half their fleet in the opening salvo, including their heaviest vessel, so we shouldn't have too much trouble taking care of the rest. And we do need to do that - we can't let any of them escape, and we don't have the ability to communicate and demand their surrender, so we just have to insist they stay using the universal language of violence.
Thirdly, prisoners to interrogate are more valuable than corpses. Let's see if we shot the right people.
EDIT: Plan changed to cover only the end of the battle. We can handle repair and salvage afterwards. Added in a line about Avenger acting as a tactical reserve for if anything unexpected pops up.
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FullNothingness
Mostly DHMO.
A bit on the optimistic side this plan... We got in a surprise attack but most of our fleet is at pointblank range with the enemy, this will get messy before it is over.
Ginger Maniac
Subject to Gravity
- Location
- Old Blighty
Point-blank range, yes. But we have 40 frigates (300m) and 4 light cruisers (600m) to their 17 surviving ships, none of which are over 300m. Assuming casualties have been split proportionately, they have 4 frigates (300m) and 13 cutters (120m) left. On the other hand, if we targeted the biggest first then they have only cutters remaining. Either way, our advantage is overwhelming even without considering morale effects, which they may or may not be subject to.
Barring freak circumstances like the cutters being basically a gun attached to a warp drive, at any rate, and even if they knock out one of our ships apiece we still have more hulls to trade than they do, and Avenger on approach.
Barring freak circumstances like the cutters being basically a gun attached to a warp drive, at any rate, and even if they knock out one of our ships apiece we still have more hulls to trade than they do, and Avenger on approach.
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- Location
- nullptr
Nope
Your projections for the size of the enemy fleet assume they don't receive any reinforcements. (They might not, but still.) Also, you got a natural 100 on your initial attack so you'll receive both a special "shock-jump" skill and a boost to the next round's roll.
On another note, could I please have some feedback on the writing itself? I'd like to know how I did and how I can improve.
Ginger Maniac
Subject to Gravity
- Location
- Old Blighty
That did look rather critical, to be honest. Jumping in a fraction of the time we should have needed and getting off a perfect first strike isn't something you should expect from your first ever military engagement without some serious Favour Of Icosahedra.
It was so smooth that I was actually half-wondering whether it was a different faction masquerading as our fleet, but decided that there should have been some mention in the text of something seeming off if that were the case.
The writing was good enough. Most of the quibbles I have are just along the lines of 'I would have phrased X differently', so can be safely discounted as legitimate criticism. The one thing I would say is that you should always have a punctuation mark before and at the end of speech sections, even if it's just a comma.
As an example:
becomesBefore said:
After said:
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It was so smooth that I was actually half-wondering whether it was a different faction masquerading as our fleet, but decided that there should have been some mention in the text of something seeming off if that were the case.[/QUOTE]
The arrival time was actually a separate roll, you just happened to also roll very high on that. Of course, you crit failed your dip roll so it all balances out in the end.
Corrected. Thanks for the feedback. Could I trouble you for your impressions of the characters? What did you think of their characterization?
Also, I'm adding a ship count to the update to make things clearer.
FullNothingness
Mostly DHMO.
That assumes tech parity and no surprises (like enemy reinforcement, cloaked ships or whatever). We got in a surprise attack and did a fairly substantial amount of damage... If the enemy has any surprises up their sleeves we'll see them now.
And tbh at pointblank range a ship doesn't need to be all gun to kill an enemy ship. You can't miss and all weapons deal maximum damage, it is eggshells with hammers combat all the way. Half assing destroying the enemy will cost us extra ships at minimum.
Now I'm not unsympathetic to the notion of getting some prisoners and/or salvage but IMO it isn't a done deal quite yet.
- Location
- his hidden lair
Given how ramshackle these hulls seemingly were combined with missiles being a lower tier weapon tech than particle beams- I'm pretty sure we have the tech advantage. That being said, this definitely looks like a reconnaissance in force kind of OoB we're looking at so some kind of reinforcements are likely close on hand.
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- nullptr
Missiles aren't necessarily lower tech than PBs. PBs are actually the same tier as AM missiles, and those aren't the highest tier of missiles. Also, missiles trade a limited magazine and vulnerability to PD for greatly increased damage per size unit. A volley of missiles could do more than 5 times the damage of an equivalent volley of beam weapons in ideal conditions.
- Location
- his hidden lair
It's a good thing we alpha striked them with a crit then isn't it.
But yeah, in that case we need to go on the offensive lest a counter volley do disproportionate damage to our fleet.
Ginger Maniac
Subject to Gravity
- Location
- Old Blighty
Well, a handful of paragraphs isn't really enough material to assess a character's personality. That said, Archimedes being nervous about the upcoming fight doesn't really square with her command-line request to open fire. If she was feeling belligerent enough to ask whether she could start shooting despite the numerical odds, she'd probably be more "take as many down with me" in attitude, whereas if she was hoping to avoid such a lopsided engagement she might instead report the lack of success communicating and request an ETA on her reinforcements.
Ah. That seems to be the difference in opinion. At the moment, I consider information on the enemy to be the single most important thing we can get out of this situation. We can always build replacements for any losses we take, but hard data on the tech specs and capabilities of our present foes is literally essential for devising strategies and equipment to counter them.
That said, I agree with your point about not failing to use enough force because we're trying to avoid using too much. I'm less worried about stealth ships, because we saw them warp in and would have noticed ships disappearing from the plot if they had some form of concealment ability, but if they could keep stealth up during warp then we might indeed have missed some.
I'll edit the orders accordingly.
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- nullptr
Thanks for the feedback. Perhaps it was unclear, but when she made the request the enemy vessels were out of range, so any shots would have been "warning shots". I'm not sure opening fire is necessarily indicative of confidence, but the ship-girls aren't quite as human as they appear without the invisitext. The invisitext is meant to indicate that, however human the mannerisms of the android bodies, the ships are their true bodies. This isn't specified in the text, but the androids' internal processors allow the ship-girl to redirect their emotions into their android bodies during battle. This only happens during battle because sustained use can lead to mental instability.
FullNothingness
Mostly DHMO.
IMO it makes quite a bit of sense that a soldier who knows they can't retreat and is nervous when faced with potential hostiles closing in to want fire authority.
If we can defeat them this easily though there might not be as much cause to adapt our setups to match theirs. While if they are strong enough to be a threat then the attempt to get the stuff could be very costly.
And while we can eventually replace losses doing so comes at the cost of not increasing our numbers or spending those resources on our continued buildup.
And yeah the thing that really worries me here is that they sent in a force this small, detected enemies and engaged anyways. Sure they didn't see our surprise jump in coming but still... What is their motive for aggression here? Obvious choices would be if those ships are bait or recon.
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- nullptr
Basically this + artificial increase of discipline through emotional compartmentalization.
Ginger Maniac
Subject to Gravity
- Location
- Old Blighty
Ooh, good point. Hadn't seen it that way. Objection withdrawn.
OOC, we're defeating them this easily because we scored a crit-success on the initial attack roll. I wouldn't take this as a representative sample of what they're capable of, which also means it's the best chance we're likely to get to grab some salvage. Equally, if they're able to shrug off ~60% casualties and a 2.5x numerical disadvantage, we don't stand a chance in a stand-up fight anyway.
There's no "eventually" about it - our factories put out enough ships that the entire fleet here, Avenger excepted, is less than half a turn's production. That's why I'm willing to accept losses among our frigates and light cruisers in return for intel, which has the potential to be much more valuable.
Again OOC, we crit-failed diplomacy so there was zero chance of a peaceful outcome regardless of linguistics. IC, though, we noticed external differences to records of the Monsters, which one hypothesis suggested might be battle damage. They may therefore have been in a previous engagement and fallen back to what they thought was a cleared system to conduct repairs. Except then they ran into us.
And if they are in fact the Monsters, whom we have already seen are more than willing to exterminate a race just for being in the way, then launching an immediate attack when they believed they had the advantage is perfectly in-character. They just had the bad luck that we were able to spool up our warp drives faster than anybody thought feasible in order to get the pre-emptive strike in and save Avenger and Disco's bacon.
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You, IC, know with a great deal of confidence that the Aliens were hostile by the time the fleet exited warp, but are only mostly confident they intended to attack. You aren't sure why you have this information, but the relevant subordinates (diplomacy and espionage directors) have assured you of the former's veracity and the latter's probability. They will probably give you more information in the AAR report when things have calmed somewhat.
More information would require a captive or capture of some sort of data storage.
- Location
- his hidden lair
I really don't see this battle being anything less than an act of war if we're talking about another polity's ships here. Unless we're looking at refugees, privateers, mega-corps, or just out and out pirates this many casualties are going to evoke a response. I mean, we're probably talking well upwards of a thousand bodies with conservative estimates.
That being said, there's still some odd things in play here. The hull irregularities, the weapons employed, the scope of the scouting force. It just doesn't quite add up. Missiles seem to be all about high-intensity alpha strikes, where the goal is to gut the enemy fleet as fast as possible before a response can be made. They're also logistics and resource intensive to produce and supply a fleet with. Assuming these guys have rough tech parity than we're talking about AM/M missiles- that's going to require a lot of AM production to support. Something I wouldn't expect most private enterprises to be able to really afford, certainly not something refugees or pirates would have a lot of access to.
Looking at their OoB more- I'm convinced this is some kind of Force Recon or Picket Fleet. The CA was obviously some kind of Flagship for the flotilla we're looking at, but the 120m Cutters presumably don't have the endurance for any long distance voyage without any sort of Fleet Tender. Especially if they're relying on missiles as their primary weapons. So it's presumably was some kind of frigate squadron with a cruiser leader. I'm thinking we can almost certainly expect either reinforcements or a retreat so that they can form up with the rest of their fleet.
@Isaacssv558 what can we determine about their drives systems by the ships' acceleration/maneuvers and the output of the drives themselves. At 500 km we should easily be able to tell if they have AM/M drives like us simply by how much neutrinos they're putting out. And do missiles perform better at short or longer ranges?
That being said, there's still some odd things in play here. The hull irregularities, the weapons employed, the scope of the scouting force. It just doesn't quite add up. Missiles seem to be all about high-intensity alpha strikes, where the goal is to gut the enemy fleet as fast as possible before a response can be made. They're also logistics and resource intensive to produce and supply a fleet with. Assuming these guys have rough tech parity than we're talking about AM/M missiles- that's going to require a lot of AM production to support. Something I wouldn't expect most private enterprises to be able to really afford, certainly not something refugees or pirates would have a lot of access to.
Looking at their OoB more- I'm convinced this is some kind of Force Recon or Picket Fleet. The CA was obviously some kind of Flagship for the flotilla we're looking at, but the 120m Cutters presumably don't have the endurance for any long distance voyage without any sort of Fleet Tender. Especially if they're relying on missiles as their primary weapons. So it's presumably was some kind of frigate squadron with a cruiser leader. I'm thinking we can almost certainly expect either reinforcements or a retreat so that they can form up with the rest of their fleet.
@Isaacssv558 what can we determine about their drives systems by the ships' acceleration/maneuvers and the output of the drives themselves. At 500 km we should easily be able to tell if they have AM/M drives like us simply by how much neutrinos they're putting out. And do missiles perform better at short or longer ranges?