Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
What are the range limits on Rain of Doom and Total Annihilation?
General Exalted Thread
What are the range limits on Rain of Doom and Total Annihilation?
I never cease to be deeply amused by Kejack's nickname.
At least in 3E, Rain of Doom just requires being on the border of whatever it is you're destroying. You also have to spend a few turns gathering up the motes necessary for it.
God King's Shrike requires that you spend a week surveying and researching the region in question before dooming it.
You wouldn't even need any of this. You could require a roll-off with the maker's Int + Craft against the attacker's (and his allies') Perception + Awareness or Perception + Medicine or something. You can enhance this roll with any Larceny or Stealth charms you want as if it was a disguise roll or whatever, but you can't flare your anima to a higher level than it already is or otherwise break causality (and presumably neither can the other side). If the attacker succeeds it turns out you were actually there because there was no way you couldn't have been and some other stuff about the Solar having to be in a specific place which can be found to run the doombot.
That makes Dual Magnus Prana a shortcut-it's saying that "you fooled everyone with your body double" but it now interacts with the system. You have had to, in-system, actually fool everyone. And now it can be countered if you make sure you have the spare motes to fire off something that defeats disguises. It's not perfect, obviously. But it at least touches on the system enough that it doesn't feel like cheating.
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
The reason Rain of Doom/Total Annihilation work better in a design and gameplay sense is manyfold:
- The Sorcerer remains a huge target as they spend a not insignificant amount of time preparing the spell, at which point they are largely defenseless.
- For players, defending against this is fun because you can get around the arranged defenses, or cast Adamant Countermagic if you have it. There is a time for the players to INTERACT.
- Attacking, the players are encouraged to cover the bases and protect their vital sorcery strategic assets from people who are trying to kill them, because yes,you're calling down the 10 plauges of egypt. But you're doing it in a way that is engaging to play.
- There exist implicit and explicit counter actions you can take against a sorcerer, as mentioned above. No spell is uncounterable at the tactical, strategic or mechanical level., and very few spells of the scale of Rain of Doom or Total Annihilation can be cast from complete safety with absolute impunity.
- The Most Important Thing here, is that trying to cast the spell is an action that can be interacted with BEFORE CASTING, DURING CASTING, and AFTER CASTING.
Secondly, even if you DO know it's being laid down, you can't actually interact with it to stop it, because there is no Adamant Countermagic for Solar Charms.
Thirdly, the only way an opposing force, PCs especially, can interact with the use of this charm, is AFTER it has been used, creating the aftermath you described. Now I want to stress that is actually not a bad thing to remember for purposes of writing stories.
The issue is, that playing a game and writing a story are two different things, and 'It Happens, React' is a very frustrating way to play the game.
Note that I am not assuming the scope of any disaster invoked by the 3e charm. That's irrelevant. What's relevant is that NPCs or PCs can only react to the aftermath of the disaster, not the planning or 'casting' of it.
By React I mean "Can prevent it in some way." For the record. Doing damage control during a flood is totally viable, but that's the ONLY reaction you can take, Damage control. That's poor design.
A better design would be: "Can I interact with it Before Casting, During Casting, and After Casting?" Can I prevent the thing from going off without assuming "I have to kill the Solar because they will inevitably have this charm?*"
(I don't assume this personally, but it is the kind of logic that informs player decisions and all kinds of other wiggly wobbly things.)
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
It seems really weird to me that the devs said that they've been trying to dial things back from 2e and keep the Solars in a theme of human excellence, but then they go and make stuff like Glorious Solar Doombot, and send the 10 plagues against your enemies, neither of which are in the Solar themes.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
And also made things like Solar Circle Sorcery even easier to wreck cities with, apparently.
Generally speaking, I think if a game mechanic incentivises a player to either sit in or end up in an armoured bunker half a continent away from the action, it is a bad mechanic.
Last edited:
It's not a military tool. Not ever E5, Lore5 Solar can do this. It's not a simulationist power that just anyone can get. It's something that is technically possible for Solars to achieve. It is entirely possible that no one has ever actually done so. This is not a simulationist game, Charms are not a grab bag of superpowers available to every single Exalt who meets the prereqs, and thinking of them in those terms is a bad way to get an idea of what 3E is like.
The same goes for this. Glorious Solar Doombot is a terrible fucking way to think of it. Not everyone who meets the prereqs will have the Charm. And the book even mentions that even in the First Age, Essence 5, one of the prereqs for Dual-Magnus Prana and God-King's Shrike, was very uncommon. These are not powers just anyone can access. These are not things even everyone who technically fulfills the criteria will be capable of.
Last edited:
notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
This has no impact on either of the points you quoted, you know.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
Supernal Occult/Craft ignores that, doesn't it?
Here's the thing: Sorcery does have a big advantage over God King's Shrike in that you know exactly what you're getting into, and what you're getting other people into. In terms of nuking people off the map, Rain of Doom is a hell of a lot more reliable in spite of the people assuming God King's Shrike is nothing but meteor strikes all day 'erry day. It's a bad example to put in the list, I think, because the other two examples are significantly more manageable for the people getting struck by it. But to assume it's a flawless nuke requires a reading that isn't exactly generous. It's supposed to be a disaster in the ballpark of a Behemoth or a ghost-army, and I think where the Charm fails is that it uses one example that's out of proportion to the other two, with people nodding their heads and assuming 'yup! It's meteor summoning!' If it weren't for that one example throwing off everyone's expectations, I'd think at least fewer people would complain about an invocation of random disaster.
Rain of Doom takes about an hour the storm clouds to gather. Anyone in the area who recognizes it for what it is can use countermagic on it. The thing is, I'm also sort of making the assumption here that whatever disaster God King's Shrike is invoked on someone, it's not an inevitable doom. The people hit by it can also get time to intervene, either by sending out their own armies to deal with the problem or just evacuate the hell out. I'm assuming, at least in the most extreme case, that it takes a while for Meteor to hit Gaia, even if everyone knows its coming.
You're most likely right that you can invoke the disaster without ever being within someone else's attack range. I agree that it's a problem, but the long lasting mote reduction also makes the Solar vulnerable to any backlash or reprisal that may result from this in a way that it doesn't for the Sorcerer. Never mind that the charm, unlike Sorcery, may not achieve the desired effect for the caster beyond 'something bad happens to an enemy, maybe, provided they can't react to it.'
Also agreed. The Charm's duration is instant, there's no lag between motes spent and execution, just like the First Excellency.
Doing damage control to a flood, yes, or even preventing the flood out right if it comes to that. Punching away the incoming Tsunami with a Feat of Strength is quite valid. Or sending out your armies to deal with a Behemoth, or so on.
Inevitably is a bit of a strong word, yanno? But at the very least, you should be able to track down the person who used the charm on you after the fact. The Ess 5 Investigation capstone, for example, helps you get on track to finding the person who used that Charm no matter how much actual evidence there actually exists in the world!
Last edited:
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
Here's the problem, a well designed charm would not require us to use weak or strong words to describe it's effects and usage in play.
As I described, there are three steps that MUST exist for a well designed charm to exist in Exalted. Interact before it is used, during use,and after use. Several 3e charms only allow you to act after use without implicit or explicit effort taken on the part of the PCs or Storyteller to Make Opportunities.
Like, the prophecy charm- the ST could say some traitor in the solar's court brings word to the PCs that the ritual is being undertaken and you have a week to stop it. But that is implicit in the description of the charm and not something that gets enough attention to serve as a balance point.
You can make the charm work with extra effort, but there's already too much effort required to not make it a terrible asspull in most plots.
Short version: Finding someone after the fact of having done anything can be an enjoyable play experience. That being the only possible experience is terrible and should be eradicated with good design.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
That's nice dear. Now why did you quote me for this, because I'm not seeing any connection between my post and your response? My point was that these things are only tangentally connected to Solar themes of human excellence. Your rebuttal was that these are powers that not everyone can access. Also, it's essence 6 that's reffered to as being rare even in the first age, essence 5 is noted to be "a mark of extreme prowess, vanishingly rare among the ranks of the comparatively short-lived DragonBlooded and noteworthy even among centuries-old elder Celestial Exalted." Also, can I get a source on not every essence 5 lore 5 being able to do it, because it doesn't say anything about that in the charm.
And you can bypass essence requirements if it's a Supernal attribute. The God King's Shike can be attained with only 6 lore charms, out of the 15 that players get. You can do it at chargen if you are so inclined. It is a mighty power that has never been seen before in creation that you can get at chargen. Do I need to go on?
But I digress. This still has nothing to do with whether or not it's in theme for Solars, which it is not, and you have not addressed my point at all.
I think the best solution, then, is to not run it so that the PCs are impotent, given that all the specifics of the scenario are left in the hands of the ST. The game world is not an autonomous engine running on autopilot, it's a person running it for another group of people. If it really was just a straight up, 'you summon a meteor, rocks fall, everyone dies scenario' then I'd be pissed off because it takes things both out of the GM's hands and the player's hands, and turns everything into this weird-ass MAD scenario. One that would actively require working against the game to stop, which is bad because Rules As Written is not something anyone should want to oppose in a good game.
As written, though, the who, the how, and the why are left to the GM's hands. When a player uses it, it's an invitation to work out some potentially fun disaster with the input of your players. When the GM brings in an NPC using it, it's a simultaneous plot-hook generator and a race against the clock.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
And that's, what, your only option? "Countermagic or GTFO"? Because I think it worked better, both in the sense of game balance and as a tool to tell a story with, when it was a day-long ritual that gave room for the players to interact with from either side.
When it's an hours work you can start in a secluded area that nobody has a chance of reaching in time, "Countermagic or GTFO" is both dull, and tends to mean "you're boned," because there really aren't that many folks who can counter Solar Sorcery. When it's a day-long ritual that requires you to travel the borders of a hostile power, then people can try to stop you in various ways. This means interesting encounters, and also that Solar Circle Sorcerers can't wipe all but a handful of cities in the world off the map with comparatively little effort.
No, literally any sorcerer can counter it because Countermagic is just a thing Sorcerers can do with any spell without having it divided into Emerald -> Sapphire -> Adamant. Mortal Sorcerers can counter Solar Circle Spells, it's just that the Solar is more likely to brush it aside than if it were another Exalt. You also get a small bonus if you actually know the spell you're countering, but it's still doable.
Setting it up in a secluded area that where nobody can prevent it just means you get Rain of Doom going on in a secluded area nobody gives a damn about, really. It's radius is roughly the size of a small city, or a significant part of a large city like Nexus. It doesn't cover an entire country's radius.
notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
It's unclear who can countermagic the spell. Normally you need to be within Short range of the caster and be initiated into the appropriate circle, but the text of the spell says "The spell can be countered by any opposing sorcerer within the affected area during the one hour period in which it takes form, assuming a sorcerer can recognize the signs of an oncoming Rain of Doom." So... maybe anyone can do it? Maybe just SCS people?
Nnnope.
Countermagic said:
Last edited:
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
So what charms should they take out? I know people here hate god-king and doombot, but what else? I think they should take out Tome-Rearing Gesture, as it's only function is to turn books that you've written in your mind into physical books, and it only works in the Wyld. Since there are other charms that let you write books quickly, and it only works in the Wyld, it is highly situational at best and useless at worst.
God King's Shrike is fine mostly, it's that I'd prefer that the Solar has to do a lot of proclamations of doomsaying and woe to his targets during the week-long period if they really want a charm that emulates Moses.
Yeah, I don't really want to defend its themes. It's not exactly a very Solar thing to do, as written, and should really be something a Sidereal gets instead. It's just, as a thing a PC can do in and of itself? I think it's just fine.
First off: I misread your post, I thought you were saying something else, sorry. I've been really off my game today. Here's the source:
"Solar Charms aren't necessarily a known commodity in the world of Exalted. It may be that they
don't exist. Each is a pretty package, depicting a magical feat which some Solar has been or will
be capable of. But it is a feat belonging to that Solar—the very Solar you create."
It'll differ game to game, but yeah. The intent is absolutely not to be a grab-bag for every Solar. Obviously more common powers, such as superjumps, will likely be seen over and over. City-destroying super stuff? That's more under the 'will be' not necessarily 'is' capable of.
"The Orichalcum Rule: This is a big game with lots of rules, set in an even bigger and more
complex world, and players are endlessly inventive. If you ever find that by following the letter
of the rules, you get a result that doesn't make sense in the course of the story, the rules are
wrong, the story is right. If the rules suggest something dumb or nonsensical or just plain not
fun, ignore them or change them. Story comes before adherence to the rules."
Page 213 of the PDF. If it doesn't make sense, change it, add more prereqs, whatever! This is one of the most important parts of the book, right here. As for the in-theme thing, I concede it's a valid concern. I don't necessarily agree, but I can't really argue it beyond "I don't agree." Different Strokes and all that. If you really dislike it, though?
"The Golden Rule: If you don't like one of these rules, change it. If a rule is getting in the way of
having fun, throw it out. If you have an idea that would work better for your group than one of
the rules here, go with that. Nobody knows better than you what you'll find fun."
Same page as the above.
For everyone else in the thread, I'd like to give the following, from the same page as the above two quotes:
"The Storyteller's Rule: A lot of the rules in Exalted, especially the combat engine, are heavy
abstractions rather than faithful simulations. Storyteller, if it seems to you like a player is using
the letter of the rules to muck up the spirit of the game and the fun of the story, then that
particular rules loophole doesn't work. You are explicitly empowered to call shenanigans
whenever it seems necessary—the rules can't account for everything, and any interpretation of a
Charm or other mechanic away from its intended function isn't legal unless you say it is."
The game is not simulationist. It is not trying to be simulationist.
Last edited:
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
- Pronouns
- He/They
This is called Rule 0 and is not an actual defense of... basically any part of any game.
You're literally saying "it's not broken because you can fix it".