General Exalted Thread

[HalfTangible]

It is my personal belief that the first thing a writer on their first "mature" project will do is find the shortest route between their nose and the most immature thing they can think of.

 

[BossFight]

Honestly, I feel like writers shouldn't interact with the discord.

Like, being a fly on the wall of the official essence discord is a great way for them to get feed back and gauge the reactions of their fanbase and that should be actively encouraged, but if you give them the ability to participate then they aren't going to resist defending their product.

And like, that's fine. There is nothing wrong with it. But it prevents you from looking at the feedback objectively.

 

[slybrarian]

I'm liking the new options for using non-combat abilities in a fight. While the compression of the combat abilities is helpful in making it cheaper to be able to at least plink at people, I like having the option to focus on things like shouting out bardic inspiration or figuring out enemy weaknesses.

 

[mothematics]

Can't be worse than dealing with White Wolf/Onyx Path writers on a regular basis.

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Fuck off?

Your baffling snideness aside (Onyx Path is pretty different from the World of Darkness team at Paradox--WW doesn't exist anymore), a general comment. There's a lot of stuff earmarked for tweaks or changes already. Chapters 2 and 3 pretty heavily have things lined up already and more things in 4 and some for 5 are flagged already. Unfortunately these won't be visible until backer PDFs are sent out but they're definitely coming.

 

[SunnySprings]

I mean, we'll see, but I'm still scratching my head about there being two ways to generate power (which you need to kill/incapacitate people in combat), with one being you making a simple roll against difficulty 3 and every success over that gives you one power, or the other being you attacking someone who can boost their defense potentially up to 10 if they're a really strong enemy (or counter-attack you, or clash you, or any other number of nasty things) and any of the measly few points you get over that being your Power. It seems like you just wanna sit around charging up like Goku rather than, you know, actually use your weapons.

 

[Deations]

I mean, we'll see, but I'm still scratching my head about there being two ways to generate power (which you need to kill/incapacitate people in combat), with one being you making a simple roll against difficulty 3 and every success over that gives you one power, or the other being you attacking someone who can boost their defense potentially up to 10 if they're a really strong enemy (or counter-attack you, or clash you, or any other number of nasty things) and any of the measly few points you get over that being your Power. It seems like you just wanna sit around charging up like Goku rather than, you know, actually use your weapons.

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Per stunting rules, you can also gain a point of power from attacking or defending during a stunt. Which is another reason to avoid withering attacks: not only might you miss, but they will also get a point of power regardless of whether you succeed or fail.

Venture rules are fun, and at the very least the guidelines are nice to have.

 

[Kymme]

I mean, we'll see, but I'm still scratching my head about there being two ways to generate power (which you need to kill/incapacitate people in combat), with one being you making a simple roll against difficulty 3 and every success over that gives you one power, or the other being you attacking someone who can boost their defense potentially up to 10 if they're a really strong enemy (or counter-attack you, or clash you, or any other number of nasty things) and any of the measly few points you get over that being your Power. It seems like you just wanna sit around charging up like Goku rather than, you know, actually use your weapons.

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I imagine we'll see some balancing factor when Charms Week begins. I'm betting it'll be something like 'there are lots of charms that make attacking better, and Build Power only has charm support through the Excellency.' That'd encourage people to get up in enemies faces and make attacks, because they might have the potential to gain way more power at the risk of getting whacked back.

 

[SunnySprings]

I imagine we'll see some balancing factor when Charms Week begins. I'm betting it'll be something like 'there are lots of charms that make attacking better, and Build Power only has charm support through the Excellency.' That'd encourage people to get up in enemies faces and make attacks, because they might have the potential to gain way more power at the risk of getting whacked back.

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Eh, I still feel like either those Build Power rules should be contested (Outmaneuver being Finesse + Stealth versus someone's Fortitude + Awareness, or something like that) or just generate far less than the attacks do.

I mean, ultimately, I still don't have all the rules, so maybe something about weapons and the general combat charms makes it easier to get Power when you do something risky like attacking another Exalt or other supernatural being. If it doesn't, well, hopefully the devs respond to it and buff up combat, because it would be really weird to be a Dawn and spend most of your time just glowering at a guy until you cut him in half with a Decisive.

 

[Deations]

I imagine we'll see some balancing factor when Charms Week begins. I'm betting it'll be something like 'there are lots of charms that make attacking better, and Build Power only has charm support through the Excellency.' That'd encourage people to get up in enemies faces and make attacks, because they might have the potential to gain way more power at the risk of getting whacked back.

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I'm not so sure it's going to be that efficient versus 'mash against a difficulty of 3.' At the very least, you will miss an attack, sometimes. Whereas difficulty 3 is just the average roll difficulty as described by the system itself. It's just going to be easier to succeed on a build power roll than it is to reliably land a solid hit on an Abyssal Exalt, while also potentially costing far less in motes and other resources. To say nothing of the defensive charms and abilities that your opponents might get.

 

[Elero]

Well, to quote Monica from discord

We've gone over this an awful lot: overwhelming and weapon accuracy make Withering attacks a much more reliable source of power generation
I don't mean to be snappy here, but I'm begging you to trust the people who've been playing this a lot[

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So they're either very wrong or attacking is actually viable and preferable to just building power.

 

[Alectai]

Yeah, if Overwhelming is more than a joke, it means that you basically recoup the Difficulty before you start adding threshold successes no matter what. That would make Withering worth your time.

 

[Deations]

Yeah, if Overwhelming is more than a joke, it means that you basically recoup the Difficulty before you start adding threshold successes no matter what. That would make Withering worth your time.

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Overwhelming itself specifies only a bare minimum. Whereas the ceiling for Build Power and Withering are both infinitely high, and one is of considerably lower risk.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

Without having read the rules, it sure sounds like the level of the fight affects the relative value of attacking vs building power. One difficulty scales with the defensive skills of the opponent, while the other is flat.

Have they explained why Build Power even exists as an option?

Seems like an odd thing to add, especially when you're trying to simplify a system.

Fuck off?

Your baffling snideness aside (Onyx Path is pretty different from the World of Darkness team at Paradox--WW doesn't exist anymore)...

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I don't think there's anything baffling about it; I mean, Richard Thomas is still running the show. No doubt it's a tough place to work.

 

[Alectai]

Without having read the rules, it sure sounds like the level of the fight affects the relative value of attacking vs building power. One difficulty scales with the defensive skills of the opponent, while the other is flat.

Have they explained why Build Power even exists as an option?

Seems like an odd thing to add, especially when you're trying to simplify a system.



I don't think there's anything baffling about it; I mean, Richard Thomas is still running the show. No doubt it's a tough place to work.

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It's to let non-combat characters contribute in combat encounters without needing to grab a bunch of combat charms.

 

[Deations]

It's to let non-combat characters contribute in combat encounters without needing to grab a bunch of combat charms.

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The question is whether even combat focused characters would prefer it as an option, then.

 

[mothematics]

Have they explained why Build Power even exists as an option?

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So characters that don't invest heavily in combat Abilities can contribute to combat meaningfully.

I don't think there's anything baffling about it; I mean, Richard Thomas is still running the show. No doubt it's a tough place to work.

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I literally write for Onyx Path. Whatever rumors you've heard aren't true, Rich is a pretty solid guy whose biggest fault if anything is that he's too patient, and I've enjoyed every one of my contracts immensely.

But that's not even the point. I'm not really inclined to be silent when somebody just talks shit about every single freelancer who writes for OPP just cause, while acting like a fandom can do no wrong ever. It's gross and unfair and pretty infuriating actually!

 

[HalfTangible]

As I recall, Richard Thomas took over after the original corebook team got booted off. He could not be much worse unless he was actively beating his writers. Which I doubt.

 

[Deations]

As I recall, Richard Thomas took over after the original corebook team got booted off. He could not be much worse unless he was actively beating his writers. Which I doubt.

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Rich Thomas was always in charge, he's the person who created and ran OPP from the beginning. He was also in charge of the original corebook writers, and indeed, all of OPP and every decision it has made, good or bad.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

I literally write for Onyx Path. Whatever rumors you've heard aren't true, Rich is a pretty solid guy whose biggest fault if anything is that he's too patient, and I've enjoyed every one of my contracts immensely.

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I'm not going by rumours. I've seen a decent bit of the man's behaviour myself. And I've seen what he tolerated in his subordinates. I've had a few glimpses at the terms his employees work under, too.

I'm not gonna litigate it here, but he's a pretty lowly creature.

But that's not even the point. I'm not really inclined to be silent when somebody just talks shit about every single freelancer who writes for OPP just cause, while acting like a fandom can do no wrong ever. It's gross and unfair and pretty infuriating actually!

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I don't think that's a remotely fair reading of what Chloe said.

 

[Elero]

The question is whether even combat focused characters would prefer it as an option, then.

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After actually reading through the chapter, I can see several reasons against it.
1. The different build power actions specify whether they can only build power for yourself, for allies or for yourself or allies. Attacks can always give surplus power to allies.
2. Attacks can be placed in a flurry, Build Power explicitly can't.
3. Withering attacks reduce the target's Hardness by 1 each until they get hit by a decisive once.
4. Charms. There likely are more charms to augment Attacks than there are, for example, awareness charms to support awareness-based build powering.
5. Anima abilities. We already know, for example, that the Dawn Iconic (iirc) benefits massively from making close combat or ranged combat attacks.

That's after like, ten minutes skimming the chapter so I'm sure there's a few more.

 

[Deations]

After actually reading through the chapter, I can see several reasons against it.

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I've read it as well, and I'm not entirely convinced.

1. The different build power actions specify whether they can only build power for yourself, for allies or for yourself or allies. Attacks can always give surplus power to allies.

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Per the rules, they can only transfer excess power when at a max of 10 via attacks. Whereas several build power actions can accumulate it or transfer it between others freely.

2. Attacks can be placed in a flurry, Build Power explicitly can't.

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Which can be useful if you want to flurry something extra like Influence. But in neither case can you make multiple attacks or anything like that.

3. Withering attacks reduce the target's Hardness by 1 each until they get hit by a decisive once.

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Not quite. It requires multiple people to do withering to the same target within the span of a single round. And would also allow an enemy to make a defensive stunt and gain power off of incoming attacks. Also, given that there's no difference between Hardness 4 and Hardness 8 as long as your power is high enough, I still feel that Build Power is the more optimal option. If an enemy has a Hardness > 10, then it would be necessary.

4. Charms. There likely are more charms to augment Attacks than there are, for example, awareness charms to support awareness-based build powering.

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Possibly, but it very much remains to be seen. And I remember how Awareness charms can be used to max out Join Battle rolls in 3E, and see no reason why Build Power would be restricted. It just amounts to 'roll the skill you're best at against a low difficulty' and in any edition of Exalted, the absurd accumulation of successes are a guarantee.

5. Anima abilities. We already know, for example, that the Dawn Iconic (iirc) benefits massively from making close combat or ranged combat attacks.

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We've also seen how it benefits Build Power. Page 31 of the chapter manuscript notes that having an anima in an active state gave a player one bonus success to Build Power, even though the Zenith anima itself doesn't specify anything to do with Build Power (unlike Sidereals). This leads me to conclude that having a flared anima in and of itself is sufficient to enhance Build Power rolls, whereas no such provision exists for combat. In contrast to the Dawn Iconic, which simply allows them to spam out more attack actions.

 

[Amazing Abzan]

Can't be worse than dealing with White Wolf/Onyx Path writers on a regular basis.

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As I recall, Richard Thomas took over after the original corebook team got booted off. He could not be much worse unless he was actively beating his writers. Which I doubt.

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I'm not going by rumours. I've seen a decent bit of the man's behaviour myself. And I've seen what he tolerated in his subordinates. I've had a few glimpses at the terms his employees work under, too.

I'm not gonna litigate it here, but he's a pretty lowly creature.

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I was making a joke, you all didn't have to go and prove my point.

Seriously, if this is how fans talk about the devs, is it really surprising if some of them get a bit snippy in the discord? If you're aware of specific allegations regarding specific people (such as Rich Thomas) that's one thing, but all this vague sniping and "he's a bad person, just trust me" is uncalled for. Doubly so when you're willing to paint with such a broad brush that freelancers like @mothematics start to feel personally attacked.

Again, if you're aware of specific misdeeds by specific people, I'd love to hear it. I don't want to give my money to a known abuser or something. But if you're just going to make cryptic comments about someone being a "lowly creature" or jokes implying all the writers are somehow more toxic than the entire fandom, please don't. It just makes this thread a hostile and unwelcoming place.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

You know, I think we have more or less mirrored views of this conversation. To you, it seems I'm making likely-unjust attacks and mothematics is responding to those. To me, it seems that mothematics is making a likely-unjust attack on Chloe, and I'm responding to that.

I'm not really interested in fighting over RichT; I brought him up only because his general scumminess was relevant in the context of Chloe's joke. I don't even think he's evil, just a dishonest prick. You probably give money to worse people all the time.

Everyone who bought Ex3 did, after all, given the involvement of Holden and John Morke. Who were certainly enabled by Rich, but who did far worse things than I know of Rich doing.

...I dunno, maybe even mentioning this obligates me to explain it. It'd take at least an hour to make a proper record of so many years of low-level bad behaviour, though, and it wouldn't be a pleasant hour. Not sure whether I'll do it.

 

[Amazing Abzan]

You know, I think we have more or less mirrored views of this conversation. To you, it seems I'm making likely-unjust attacks and mothematics is responding to those. To me, it seems that mothematics is making a likely-unjust attack on Chloe, and I'm responding to that.

I'm not really interested in fighting over RichT; I brought him up only because his general scumminess was relevant in the context of Chloe's joke. I don't even think he's evil, just a dishonest prick. You probably give money to worse people all the time.

Everyone who bought Ex3 did, after all, given the involvement of Holden and John Morke. Who were certainly enabled by Rich, but who did far worse things than I know of Rich doing.

...I dunno, maybe even mentioning this obligates me to explain it. It'd take at least an hour to make a proper record of so many years of low-level bad behaviour, though, and it wouldn't be a pleasant hour. Not sure whether I'll do it.

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It's up to you whether or not you want to give a thorough accounting of things. I'm certainly all ears if you're willing. If you decide not to, though, I think it'd be for the best if you stopped namedropping people just to allude to their "general scumminess." There's not much that can be done with an accusation as vague and unfocussed as that.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

Don't worry, he almost never comes up. Someone getting cussed out for treating Onyx Path with insufficient deference is really quite unusual here.