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Game of Thrones: Season 6

VolantRedX said:
She's the Prince that Was Promised. Who is a separate entity from Azor Ahai.
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Not according to Melisandre, who uses the two terms interchangeably (though she does use Azor Ahai more often).


The issue is murky because both Jon and Dany fulfill many of the prophetic requirements for being Azor Ahai/The Prince(ss?) that was Promised. Only Dany though has literally 'waken dragons from stones' if that line of the prophecy means 'somehow was involved in the birthing of dragons.'

That said, when Mel looks into the fire and asks R'hllor to show her a sign of Azor Ahai, all he gives her is Snow. And Dany's only had figurative rebirths, Jon has literally come back from the dead.

It's also possible they're both fulfillment of the prophecy, because it's quite often stated how prophecies are not accurate or too open to interpretation.
 
That was a pretty good episode. I do wonder why they had to kill Doran if they were going to have Dorne follow his plan anyway, but eeeeeeeeeeeeehhh who even cares anymore about any of that
 
Stofsk said:
I do
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Truth be told I do too but if actually invested anything into the show I'd go crazy because of the nonsensicality of it sometimes. So I just go along for the ride and ignore all the teleportation and the displacement of already established moments (tfw arya steals manderly's frey pie recipe and makes it so much less poetic and the sand snookies side with Targ mistress like Doran was already going to do thus robbing a more interesting VENGANCE motive in exchange for a generic 'cersei is now the bad dude so we must kill' thing) and enjoy the climactic moments it's good at presenting.
 
Xantalos said:
That was a pretty good episode. I do wonder why they had to kill Doran if they were going to have Dorne follow his plan anyway, but eeeeeeeeeeeeehhh who even cares anymore about any of that
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I think in the show's canon it wasn't Doran's plan. His plan seems to have really been, play nice and hope it all blows over.
 
Cunuroi said:
I don't mean that he was a good guy, I meant that he was an effective guy at putting down the Faith's revolt. Or so it seemed, based on the little we saw within the series proper.
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Cunuroi said:
Apparently Martin made him crazier in The World of Ice and Fire. Which is dislike for that reason (that and actually providing a basis for the superstitions of feudal people about "gods flipping a coin" and all)
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My vague understanding is that Maegor and the Faith Militant just ground each other up with "I have dragons" vs "IF ONE FALLS SEVEN MORE SHALL TAKE HIS PLACE".
 
Cunuroi said:
And yet, when Jaehaerys came along it was the Faith that gave up all their power.
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And yet it wasn't the the leader of the Warrior's Sons who got hacked to pieces by his own bodyguards because he'd screwed the war up so badly.

Also, Jahaerys had a Septon as Hand of the King for his entire reign, "The Faith gave up all their power" is just a wee bit of Targ wank.
 
Wade Garrett said:
And yet it wasn't the the leader of the Warrior's Sons who got hacked to pieces by his own bodyguards because he'd screwed the war up so badly.

Also, Jahaerys had a Septon as Hand of the King for his entire reign, "The Faith gave up all their power" is just a wee bit of Targ wank.
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They gave up the military, which is what I was talking about.

Where is the rest of the stuff coming from? Cause, in the actual series I don't think such detail was given.

As I said, I heard he was made crazier and less successful in the World of Ice and Fire. I'm talking about my impression reading through the series.

In the series we're told he put a bounty on the heads of the Faith's warriors and the war ended after Jaehaerys pardoned everyone. And then Jaehaerys nerfed them even further by preventing them from handling court cases.

The series proper doesn't expand beyond that. So the inference that Jaehaerys got to end the war without making any concessions on policy beyond a pardon cause of the brutality that preceded them doesn't seem insane to me. After all, the Faith started the rebellion and no indication is given that they achieved their ends. Quite the opposite.

Sure, people call him cruel and that seems kinda justified(given the thing with Maegor's Holdfast...) but what exactly happened with the Faith is barely described and/so he seems to come off far worse in the supplementary stuff.
 
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Soooooo... Ellaria now leads Dorne. Even though she never married Oberyn, all her children are bastards, and even though historically Dorne is torn in ethnic conflict between the Salt, Stone, and Sand Dornish, no distant relative of the Marells or another House claims Sunspear, and the country doesn't devolve into Civil War.

Top kek writing, D&D :V

Pretty sure they only killed off Doran because they weren't willing to pay Alexander Siddiq's per-episode salary.

And as much as I love watching Olenna's verbal bitchslapping, I am tired of D&D trying to mollify me with cheap shots after realising they fucked up.

...Seriously, the Dorne subplot in the books is so much fucking better. Why couldn't they adapt that?
 
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Fernandel said:
Soooooo... Ellaria now leads Dorne. Even though she never married Oberyn, all her children are bastards, and even though historically Dorne is torn in ethnic conflict between the Salt, Stone, and Sand Dornish, no distant relative of the Marells or another House claims Sunspear, and the country doesn't devolve into Civil War.

Top kek writing, D&D :V

Pretty sure they only killed off Doran because they weren't willing to pay Alexander Siddiq's per-episode salary.

And as much as I love watching Olenna's verbal bitchslapping, I am tired of D&D trying to mollify me with cheap shots after realising they fucked up.

...Seriously, the Dorne subplot in the books is so much fucking better. Why couldn't they adapt that?
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Because it would have cost a fortune in more actors, screentime and would have not that great of an effect? I mean I agree with you the book plotline was better, but even that was'nt realy that great:

We have 2 new major Dornish characters to follow, Arianna and Quentin. We get Arianna going around, plotting to press Myrcella's claim on the IT, only for her coup attempt to end in a disaster with a mutilated Myrcella. Quentin basicaly just travels with brand new characters, seeing various places we will only see while he's there, and would basicaly just be passing Tyrion by without those two interacting, only to reach Meereen shortly before Dany leaves and then dying later.

It would also require casting (F)Aegon and Jon Connington and that whole plotline, and as you can see, they wanted to cut as many loose plot threads as possible for the endgame. Since pretty much everyone is expecting Aegon to bite it by the time Dany shows up, this all ends in nothing, and would merely be seen as massive padding (which it objectively is, seeing as the end is merely to add more conflict until Dany arrives), cost a fortune and I suspect they would have botched that storyline anyway.


Better yet would have been to just utterly ignore Dorne. At least let the place be forgotten instead of giving us this shitshow...
 
Yonatan said:
Because it would have cost a fortune in more actors, screentime and would have not that great of an effect? I mean I agree with you the book plotline was better, but even that was'nt realy that great:

We have 2 new major Dornish characters to follow, Arianna and Quentin. We get Arianna going around, plotting to press Myrcella's claim on the IT, only for her coup attempt to end in a disaster with a mutilated Myrcella. Quentin basicaly just travels with brand new characters, seeing various places we will only see while he's there, and would basicaly just be passing Tyrion by without those two interacting, only to reach Meereen shortly before Dany leaves and then dying later.

It would also require casting (F)Aegon and Jon Connington and that whole plotline, and as you can see, they wanted to cut as many loose plot threads as possible for the endgame. Since pretty much everyone is expecting Aegon to bite it by the time Dany shows up, this all ends in nothing, and would merely be seen as massive padding (which it objectively is, seeing as the end is merely to add more conflict until Dany arrives), cost a fortune and I suspect they would have botched that storyline anyway.


Better yet would have been to just utterly ignore Dorne. At least let the place be forgotten instead of giving us this shitshow...
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I actually agree that cutting Quentin, Arianne, as Connington would have been the better call here.

But you could have kept the plot as in the show, with just another denouement: Ellaria fails in he attempt to kill Myrcella in revenge, and is captured by Doran. Confronted with clear evidence, Doran has to return Myrcella to King's Landing.

In th throne room, Doran reveals that he was plotting against the current kings ever since Elia's death, rips Ellaria a new one for fucking up the original plan, and episode ends.
 
Fernandel said:
I actually agree that cutting Quentin, Arianne, as Connington would have been the better call here.

But you could have kept the plot as in the show, with just another denouement: Ellaria fails in he attempt to kill Myrcella in revenge, and is captured by Doran. Confronted with clear evidence, Doran has to return Myrcella to King's Landing.

In th throne room, Doran reveals that he was plotting against the current kings ever since Elia's death, rips Ellaria a new one for fucking up the original plan, and episode ends.
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But that would have deprived us of all the facile articles lauding the coup as the start of a feminist season of women taking power and overthrowing the patriarchy.
 
Cavalier said:
But that would have deprived us of all the facile articles lauding the coup as the start of a feminist season of women taking power and overthrowing the patriarchy.
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Because it can only be feminist if you blow up a church on your way to power.

Not like game of thrones has ever had a queen before, surely they would never have dared to have a woman take power over a primarily male-oriented society. she would need some kind of dragons or something to do that, quite ridiculous.

People are stupid sometimes.
 
Frankly, the culmination of GoT's "feminism" makes their feminist intentions seem really backhanded. Cersei is a feminist because she's the Fantasy Unabomber! Arya is feminist because she's a Sweeney Todd level psychopath! Dany is feminist because she's turning into a fire-happy madwoman! At this rate Sansa's going to go full Littlefinger and Brienne is going to end up chopping Pod in half or something.

If wanton violence and power hungry behavior is the feminism for one or two characters that's fine. But nearly every single one of them?

Fernandel said:
Soooooo... Ellaria now leads Dorne. Even though she never married Oberyn, all her children are bastards, and even though historically Dorne is torn in ethnic conflict between the Salt, Stone, and Sand Dornish, no distant relative of the Marells or another House claims Sunspear, and the country doesn't devolve into Civil War.
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They shouldn't have adapted Dorne at all. Aside from it's own internal drama which the show totally jettisons, it's relevance to the plot is mainly through Aegon and Quentyn. And guess what? No Aegon and Quentyn in the show.

I actually find Dorne in the books pretty cool, since it's a part of the story where the main concern of the characters is soft power and family drama over the grimdark violence and chaos of the rest of the story. Made a nice balance. But I guess family drama doesn't people watching TV oh wait what even are all these dozens of successful shows about nothing more than interpersonal drama.
 
Fernandel said:
Soooooo... Ellaria now leads Dorne. Even though she never married Oberyn, all her children are bastards, and even though historically Dorne is torn in ethnic conflict between the Salt, Stone, and Sand Dornish, no distant relative of the Marells or another House claims Sunspear, and the country doesn't devolve into Civil War.

Top kek writing, D&D :V

Pretty sure they only killed off Doran because they weren't willing to pay Alexander Siddiq's per-episode salary.

And as much as I love watching Olenna's verbal bitchslapping, I am tired of D&D trying to mollify me with cheap shots after realising they fucked up.

...Seriously, the Dorne subplot in the books is so much fucking better. Why couldn't they adapt that?
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I point you to this page at game of thrones wiki for some interesting details on the dorne stuff.

Ellaria Sand's coup in Dorne

The main one being that they did not plan to put dorne into the show until they changed their minds just before starting season five.

Thanks to cogman suggesting that they send Jamie there, in order to have a main character there. So you have him to thank for what we got.

Really they should have just cut dorne if they weren't going to put it in from the start. Since the grey joy subplot was probably more important to do in setting up euron as a villain, getting yara away etc

This detail also raises the question of just how much outline George gave them if they thought to cut dorne altogether out apart from Oberin and ellera. Though really d&d have proven to misunderstand certain aspects and characters anyway. Along with their known disdain for themes.

Streamlining the plot is understandable and necessary in places. But season five with dorne was a fucking disaster that should not have happened.
 
That's kind of why I wish they would just end the show next season. I feel like they've already set up the end game. Given the quality of writing in the last two seasons, it's most likely going to be a bunch of bad twists and putzing around until they finally get on with it.

At least the last two episodes were entertaining enough to keep me watching what's left.

blackmambauk said:
This detail also raises the question of just how much outline George gave them if they thought to cut dorne altogether out apart from Oberin and ellera. Though really d&d have proven to misunderstand certain aspects and characters anyway. Along with their known disdain for themes
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Not that I don't believe you, but I would like to see some sources on that if only for my own reading.
 
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