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Frisk(Undertale) was a Solar Exalted?

LinkOnScepter

LinkOnScepter

The One who Strangles Concepts to death
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I know this is my third thread on Undertale. So what? Sue me.

Now to the matter at hand, what do you guys think would happen if Frisk was a Solar Exalted? I have a feeling most of you know what this is, but for those who don't, think someone like Superman, Goku, Sailor Moon, or One-Punch Man.

So anyway, what do you guys think would happen if they were;
1. A Dawn Caste?
2. A Twilight Caste?
3. A Zenith Caste?
4. A Night Caste?
5. An Eclipse Caste?
6. A First Age Solar at full-power?

Also, I am aware that according to Undertale lore, it is impossible for humans to use magic.

But "impossible" has "possible" in it, and the Exalted don't give a damn about pre-fixes.
 
Blake Hannon said:
He passes through the Mt. Ebott barrier and continues on his way.
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Frisk: *Sees Flowey*

Flowey: Howdy, I'm-

Frisk: I don't have time for this. *Walks through the side of the mountain*

Chara: Wait, but shouldn't you-

Frisk: Shut up other half! Now go make me a sandwich fit for the Gods!

Chara:.....Yes boss.
 
Frisk dies.

Well pacifist and genocide frisk die, neutral frisk has a chance. Full first age solar can possibly live.

Bear with me. One exalted's cardinal rules is "no time travel", with the "no resurrection" it's the "no take backs" part of exalted's philosophy. This is in contrast to undertale, where begin able to take back just about anything is an explicit part of the game. Therefore if Frisk was exalted, he would be playing by their rules and that means no time travel fuckery, and no resting if he loses.

Because of this, Genocidal Frisk dies to Sans. While Solar's are powerful, they do have weaknesses, lots of small pinprick attacks to wear them down, exactly the kind of thing sans specializes in. Meanwhile, their offensive is negated by Sans dodging, since Sans can dodge even if you hit perfectly, we can reasonably conclude it's a perfect defense (after all, game mechanics like Saving and loading are explicitly existing powers in undertale)since Defense trumps attack in exalted, the Solar won't be able to kill Sans any faster. Sure people can defeat Sans, but only after a lot of practice, practice the Solar won't get, since they will die in the first run. I'm not even sure they make it to Sans, as Undyne the Undying may kill them, but since she is hittable, dmg combo shenanigans might allow them to take her.

Pacifist Frisk should be impossible, since they can't load after the mandatory Neutral ending. But even granting them that bypass they die to Astriel. Since we know they can't SAVE or LOAD (see above) they can't SAVE any of their friend or Astriel, and are stuck fighting a nigh god. Which sure Solars are good against, but Asriels "end the world" puts him at at least third circle level, and arguably greater than a primordial. Starting solars will get eaten alive, though the first age one might have a chance, but basic Solar Frisks only hope is that Astriel doesn't want to kill them and realizes they can't LOAD.

(or we go with HavocFett's)
 
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Maybe I need to specify something; I'm not basing this on Undertale Game Mechanic rules.

I'm basing this on Exalted awesomeness rules. In other words, SAVING and LOADING aren't a thing. This is just Frisk as a Solar Exalted and the Monsters as Monsters.

No SAVE file.

No LOADING.

No Bullshit Game Mechanics.

Sorry, but am I allowed to give my own opinion? I know it seems unprofessional for this discussion, but I feel I just need to get it off my chest.
 
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LinkOnScepter said:
Maybe I need to specify something; I'm not basing this on Undertale Game Mechanic rules.

I'm basing this on Exalted awesomeness rules. In other words, SAVING and LOADING aren't a thing. This is just Frisk as a Solar Exalted and the Monsters as Monsters.

No SAVE file.

No LOADING.

No Bullshit Game Mechanics.

Sorry, but am I allowed to give my own opinion? I know it seems unprofessional for this discussion, but I feel I just need to get it off my chest.
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Then Frisk wins forever.

If Undertale isn't allowed to bring their stuff to the table, what's the point?
 
Malbutorius said:
Then Frisk wins forever.

If Undertale isn't allowed to bring their stuff to the table, what's the point?
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Sorry.

Whenever I put fictional media against other fictional media, I try not to force one side to play by the other's rules. I try to see them in what would happen if they actually were put up against each other IRL.

This is with their powers, but none that have to really do with the game world. I

For example; If I were to put a Dark Souls character up against someone, I'll think about it if the character didn't have the ability to come back using the Bonfires.
 
Undertale setting is the game world, and is inextricably linked to it. The mechanics noted are all explicit parts of the setting and reasonable extrapolations.

Fundamentally, clockwork or me are right. Either power doesn't kill Frisks access to determination, in which case nothing changes, or it does, in which case a solar will not win.
 
It would be a story about a person talking everyone into being his ally and saving the world... so, yeah, Nothing Changes.

As for whether or not Genocide Solar can beat Sans? Yes. Yes he can. Sans tires out fighting a child with a knife. A Solar pops a combo of Reflex Sidestep Technique, Shadow Over Water, Leaping Dodge Method and Accuracy Without Distance and one shots him before Sans even knows the fight has started.
 
I think you guys are making a mistake by assuming that Exalted!Frisk will proceed through the game in the same order or path as canon!Frisk.

Ten foot tall cliffs, deep water, narrow ravines, etc are not obstacles for him. He probably passes right by Snowdin Village without ever noticing it as he makes a beeline for the next zone. Undyne never catches up with him. He pulverizes Mettaton the instant he bursts through the wall (or more likely, Dr. Alphys never sicks Mettaton on him in the first place because she knows what would happen). The only possible thing that could stop him is if Flowey savescums him to death at the beginning (and if he doesn't do it at the beginning, he's not going to be fast enough to catch up with him by the time he reaches Asgore. Unless Flowey can teleport, which I guess is possible).

And all that is assuming he doesn't just climb or fly back out of the ruins the same way he fell, before he ever meets Flowey; if a human soul and a monster soul can break through the barrier, there's no guarantee that a human soul with a divine exaltation can't.
 
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Blake Hannon said:
*snip* if a human soul and a monster soul can break through the barrier, there's no guarantee that a human soul with a divine exaltation can't.
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There's also no guarantee a divine exalted soul can by pass the barrier by being the equivalent of a monster soul. False equivalency of exalt soul=human+monster soul unless he's an mid-high essence exalt who has somehow fused a monster soul of his home verse with his own (assuming that monster soul works the same way). Also kid like frisk is not going to be even a mid-essence Solar of the bat unless you bullshit him as already decades/centuries in development and just picked a kid form, he's going to make his way faster in the underground, sure, but not hop through obstacle right away.

If he's a wizened mid-high essence exalt he's going to finish his adventure real quick (maybe only a few hours), but the barrier won't exactly be bypassed easily. The monsters would have expanded the hole in the ruins already, more likely it encapsulates the mountain. A really young exalt frisk (if we go with him being just recently exalted) is going to progress way faster still by going through obstacles normal Frisk can't, but again the barrier is still the one he needs to go with either killing a monster and going through with their soul or social-fuing Asriel to break the barrier right away when he transform into his Hyperdeath form.

Either route is going to be much quicker depending on which Frisk specced for (combat=Genocide and Social=Pacifist)
 
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Regency said:
There's also no guarantee a divine exalted soul can by pass the barrier by being the equivalent of a monster soul. False equivalency of exalt soul=human+monster soul unless he's an mid-high essence exalt who has somehow fused a monster soul of his home verse with his own (assuming that monster soul works the same way).
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Nah, Twilight!Frisk just blows the Barrier to pieces with one cast of Emerald Countermagic. It is specifically noted as being able to automatically destroy any magic available to mortals, after all.

Besides, if Night!Frisk wants to leave instantly he just climbs out the hole he fell in. Why go through the entire underworld when there is an exit literally just over his head?
 
Aaron Peori said:
It would be a story about a person talking everyone into being his ally and saving the world... so, yeah, Nothing Changes.

As for whether or not Genocide Solar can beat Sans? Yes. Yes he can. Sans tires out fighting a child with a knife. A Solar pops a combo of Reflex Sidestep Technique, Shadow Over Water, Leaping Dodge Method and Accuracy Without Distance and one shots him before Sans even knows the fight has started.
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Sans dies to a person who, nearly immediately after killing him, ENDS THE ENTIRE WORLD. Again, nothing can hit him on the first shot, and since Exalted has primacy of defense over attack, this isn't changing no matter what the Solar pops. Accuracy without distance might, might, work, but that assumes the Frisk tries to snipe Sans from the get go, which doesn't seem very in line with the kind of murder-happy person who smiles when he encounters someone, geno-frisk enjoys the fight. Even if he does,it's still no guarantee, since Sans can explicitly use "shortcuts" to teleport around the world, and once he's off the map Frisk won't be able to find him, and Sans can ambush at his leisure.

And to elaborate more on the "perfect defense" argument. Undertale the mechanics are part of the setting. While Sans "dodges"your attack,this isn't coded as his hit box for your attack being smaller, or moving around, it's coded as "he dodges, no exceptions". The exact rules why which perfect defense operate and since mechanics are reality in undertale, Sans has a perfect defense. Also he uses it 23 times, pretty that under current rulers sure even a Solar would be mote tapped after using their defense 23 times in a row.

LinkOnScepter said:
Maybe I need to specify something; I'm not basing this on Undertale Game Mechanic rules.

I'm basing this on Exalted awesomeness rules. In other words, SAVING and LOADING aren't a thing. This is just Frisk as a Solar Exalted and the Monsters as Monsters.

No SAVE file.

No LOADING.

No Bullshit Game Mechanics.

Sorry, but am I allowed to give my own opinion? I know it seems unprofessional for this discussion, but I feel I just need to get it off my chest.
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Then Frisk dies (or goes Neutral). Neither Sans nor Astriel need to SAVE or LOAD to kill him. And it's questionable if he gets past Omega Flowery. (on the one hand Omega Flowery is beatable without dying, I did it, on the other hand it's explicit he's messing with you the go round, so if he knows he can't Save and Load, he may get serious.
 
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Aaron Peori said:
Nah, Twilight!Frisk just blows the Barrier to pieces with one cast of Emerald Countermagic. It is specifically noted as being able to automatically destroy any magic available to mortals, after all.

Besides, if Night!Frisk wants to leave instantly he just climbs out the hole he fell in. Why go through the entire underworld when there is an exit literally just over his head?
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Then the other monster could build something to go past it, because as we see with Mettaton and he's skycraper-table, that's not exactly tall order either. But they didn't, so the barrier must have affected it in some way (though highly likely much weaker, since Frisk and the other fallen children are able to go in). Actually makes it more dangerous to me that it's a 'freely get in but you can't get out' ward. Night Frisk can go through if he has a ward-breaking charm (is that what it's called in Exalted?) or other protective-effect breaking charm. than sure he can just waltz through it.

Also, if Twilight Exalt Frisk can cast Emerald Countermagic (aka it can be cast right away at E1), then it's just a matter of getting his baby exalt body there. Though Flowey most certainly can do something about this:
Component: The Personal and Area modes of this spell require a gesture of defiance as a somatic component, so a sorcerer unable to move cannot cast this spell in those modes.
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also
If the spell to be countered is currently being shaped, its caster is automatically interrupted and the spell is lost as if he failed his roll by half or less.
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(If Frisk tries this spell while fighting Asriel than it's a derp moment of not trying it while Flowey jumped him or when fighting Asgore.)
Frisk can still win against him anyway though, and if we assume the specific-breaking ward are classed as equal to or weaker than Emerald Circle spells. If it's assumed as stronger than Emerald Circle spells than Frisk go the usual way., just (again) wayyy faster.

What are the capabilities of low-essence Exalt anyway? mid-high can just end it non-conventionally with a high war-breaking sorcery/charm along with extreme social fu (pacifist) or sheer combat capability (genocide). Though since determination can cause a person to have the ability to end the world/reject death Frisk could fuel his Exalt ability more (SAVE/LOAD would reset his progress unless with Exalt abilities that stays with him)
 
clockworkchaos said:
Sans dies to a person who, nearly immediately after killing him, ENDS THE ENTIRE WORLD.
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Only after eating six more human souls. Frisk isn't anywhere close to world ending at the point he fights Sans.

Again, nothing can hit him on the first shot, and since Exalted has primacy of defense over attack, this isn't changing no matter what the Solar pops.
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Nope! We're explicitly going by the mechanics of both settings (thus allowing time hoping shenanigans for non-Solars). Sans does not get perfect defenses. His defense is literally just dodging. He says so explicitly. He mentions specifically that unlike every other monster in the entire underworld, he actually dodges. That's it. That's his big defense.

Sans can be hit, thus a Solar will hit him. That's the way Solar attack magic works. People talk a lot about perfect defenses but they forget that Solar have a lot of perfect attacks as well. Attacks that are expplicitly undodgeable. So it doesn't matter if Sans tries to Dodge. He fails, because Solar attacks do that.

As for Sans hitting him? Sans attacks can be dodged by a normal human with no supernatural powers. A child at that. Frisk does not get faster or better at dodging by killing monster, he only gains damage and hit points. So, Dex 2? Dodge 2 or 3, at best? Either way, Sans attacks are the kind of attacks that human beings, as in in real life human beings can perfectly evade without being hit (if you want, I can post a Youtube vid of a perfect Sans run). So, even if we posit that a normal human in the real world is running Dexterity 5 Dodge 5 (in video games +3) that's still twelve less dice than a Solar can get, persistently, whenever they want.

And to elaborate more on the "perfect defense" argument. Undertale the mechanics are part of the setting. While Sans "dodges"your attack,this isn't coded as his hit box for your attack being smaller, or moving around, it's coded as "he dodges, no exceptions". The exact rules why which perfect defense operate and since mechanics are reality in undertale, Sans has a perfect defense. Also he uses it 23 times, pretty that under current rulers sure even a Solar would be mote tapped after using their defense 23 times in a row.
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And Exalted mechanics are Exalted mechanics and work by Exalted rules. Since sans does not and explitiyl operates by Undertale rules, he does not get primacy of defense. I believe this is the neener neener you picked the wrong rule set to tie you invulnerability to argument.
 
Aaron Peori said:
Only after eating six more human souls.
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Humans can't absorb human souls, though.

Aaron Peori said:
His defense is literally just dodging. He says so explicitly. He mentions specifically that unlike every other monster in the entire underworld, he actually dodges. That's it. That's his big defense.
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Dodging isn't an alien concept to monsters, as seen by Undyne's tale, where she mentions that she couldn't land a hit on Asgore.

So, why doesn't everyone pull a Sans?

Simple. Game mechanics. Sans' fight is full of him abusing and ignoring the rules of the game, one of which being 'If you attack, you hit.' That makes Sans' dodging a bit more complex than what you're saying here.

It also makes it difficult to quantify, since all of his feats are abusing game mechanics, and that makes it pretty much impossible to debate what he can or can't do.

Aaron Peori said:
Sans attacks can be dodged by a normal human with no supernatural powers.
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So, uh, you don't consider the ability to come back when you die and retain the experience and knowledge of your opponents to be a supernatural power? Because while there are no-hit runs of Sans, I doubt they got a no-hit run on their first try.



You know, this thread has reminded me of why I don't think Undertale should end up in versus debates.

There's no feats.

Like, we know that seven human souls is enough to make you a god. What does that mean? We know that Chara destroys the world post-Genocide. Did he destroy the planet in a single blow, or kill every human himself in combat while using Determination to make sure they won?

And then there are the fights themselves. Frankly, we have no idea what they mean. Is the heart supposed to represent Frisk physically dodging, or are they moving their metaphysical soul away from metaphysical attacks that don't effect the real world? If it's metaphysical, why does Papyrus have his attacks stored in a box in his room? If it's all physical, then how the hell does the Blue Attack work?

It's pointless to debate Undertale, because it's only feat is Undyne suplexing a boulder mid-fight, and even then, we have no idea how big it was. There's literally nothing to work with. Maybe Sans can beat a Solar, or maybe he'd be killed by a snowball to the head. There's no real way to tell.
 
Mortifer said:
Humans can't absorb human souls, though.
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And yet Frisk for the Sans fight has no special abilities beyond higher attack and higher HP. There is no way Frisk got that ability to end the world until after he killed Flowey, who you know, was something kind of special.

Dodging isn't an alien concept to monsters, as seen by Undyne's tale, where she mentions that she couldn't land a hit on Asgore.
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No. It is entirely possible to miss an attack. Thus, its possible Undyne was just, you know, terrible at hitting. No need to presume Asgore has some special ability to dodge attacks that is not demonstrated in game.

You're the ones who say they operate on Game Engine Only. You get to live with only In Game Engine demonstrated actions.


It also makes it difficult to quantify, since all of his feats are abusing game mechanics, and that makes it pretty much impossible to debate what he can or can't do.
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Even if we presume Sans can perfectly dodge 32 attacks a Solar can easily do that. How? Ready in Eight Directions stance grants a Solar one counterattack per attack. So if Sans attacks a Solar, say, a dozen times with a single attack (since each does 1HP damage per hit we presume each is a separate attack) then the Solar attacks back a dozen times per attack.


So, uh, you don't consider the ability to come back when you die and retain the experience and knowledge of your opponents to be a supernatural power? Because while there are no-hit runs of Sans, I doubt they got a no-hit run on their first try.
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Are you saying that it is literally impossible for a human being to no hit run sans on the first try? I call bullshit on that. Hard? Yeah, maybe even Difficulty 5 hard, the kind of thing that would require a peak human with peak human reflexes and peak human practice and peak human specialization.

The kind of thing a Solar pulls of with effortless ease. No need for Shadow over Water. A Solar could breeze through the Sans fight with Flow Like Blood alone.
 
Genocide!Frisk is already Solar-level in power, capable of cutting through hordes of monsters and slaying some of the most powerful beings in the world in a single hit, while Pacifist!Frisk is capable of solving the deep-seated issues that have plagued the Underground for years (generations?) and to talk down godlike monsters. Frisk is already Solar-level in power. By and large Solar Charms are designed to emulate the fictional feats of iconic character, and Frisk is such a fictional character. Solar Exaltation does not fundamentally change his nature, it's just a different explanation for why he can do what he does.
 
If Solar!Frisk makes use of Chaos-Repelling Pattern, Flowey becomes an ordinary flower the moment he enters its area of effect. The lingering presence of Chara would cease to exist, as his SOUL vanished upon Asriel's death. Soulless beings like them simply can't exist in Creation, as the Raksha know all too well. With the two greatest threats gone, a True Pacifist route would end with Frisk breaking the barrier with Emerald Countermagic or sheer brute force.

If Frisk does NOT make use of Chaos-Repelling Pattern, he still has access to the aspects of Undertale, including the ability to SAVE and Reset. Chara's spirit cannot influence Frisk; the Limit track shields him, with or without the Great Curse.

Switch between the two states whenever Frisk activates/deactivates Chaos-Repelling Pattern.
 
Finagle007 said:
If Solar!Frisk makes use of Chaos-Repelling Pattern, Flowey becomes an ordinary flower the moment he enters its area of effect. The lingering presence of Chara would cease to exist, as his SOUL vanished upon Asriel's death. Soulless beings like them simply can't exist in Creation, as the Raksha know all too well. With the two greatest threats gone, a True Pacifist route would end with Frisk breaking the barrier with Emerald Countermagic or sheer brute force.

If Frisk does NOT make use of Chaos-Repelling Pattern, he still has access to the aspects of Undertale, including the ability to SAVE and Reset. Chara's spirit cannot influence Frisk; the Limit track shields him, with or without the Great Curse.

Switch between the two states whenever Frisk activates/deactivates Chaos-Repelling Pattern.
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Why exactly would chaos repeling pattern force flowery into an ordinary flower? Sentient plants, and beings that can't properly die are both part of exalted. Plus, I see no reason Frisk gets access to SAVE and LOAD no matter what. Exalted can't time travel, so he loses out on that, especially since the OP explicit disallowed it.
 
clockworkchaos said:
Why exactly would chaos repeling pattern force flowery into an ordinary flower? Sentient plants, and beings that can't properly die are both part of exalted.
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Perhaps I should be more clear. Flowey has the memories of Asriel. In Exalted, that sort of thing only happens due to reincarnation - and you need a soul to reincarnate. Flowey explicitly lacks one.
 
Finagle007 said:
Perhaps I should be more clear. Flowey has the memories of Asriel. In Exalted, that sort of thing only happens due to reincarnation - and you need a soul to reincarnate. Flowey explicitly lacks one.
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Ah, but would Flowey's Determination count as a soul as far as Exalted is considered?

Heck, Souls in Exalted are made of two pieces, so wouldn't it kill everyone since as far as Exalted cares you can't have half a soul without being a ghost that acts like a beast?
 
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