France Lost to Germany in WWI as badly and as quickly as they did in the Franco-Prussian war?

As it says on the title what would the consequences have been if France, once again, had been beaten like a Red-Headed step child in the Great War as they had in the Franco-Prussian war.

What do you think the fall out would have been and what would Germany have demanded of France and Later Russia when they turn their attention back to the Slavic Bear?
 
It's ironic that loosing as "badly" as they did in the francoprussian war would be WAY better then hard grinding 5 year slog fest where they had to surrender at the end.
 
It's far from certain it would be an easy and fast victory for the Central powers.


One thing to take into account is that Britain would not have given up easily. Think Napoleonic Wars Mk II, with continental blockade etc.


Russia would not be beaten until late 15-early 16 at the soonest.


The US might be drawn for the same reasons as historically, protecting their financial investments.


Also France would not surrender, but move the government to Algeria when Germany reaches the Pyrennees . In WW2 war was very much unwelcome, but in WW1 there was a massive "Alsace-Lorraine back or death sentiment".
 
It's not like the Belgians didn't exist. Even if the French fold, the Germans aren't exactly getting away scot-free.
 
Germany had a really, really good shot at making exactly that happen, actually. If a few things had tipped the other way - and if Moltke hadn't been so paranoid about Russia - they might well have been able to force the surrender of France within a few months.

In which case probably we would have seen a cold-war-esque period of tension between Britain and Germany that would have led at some unpredictable time into a very, very different World War II.

It's far from certain it would be an easy and fast victory for the Central powers.


One thing to take into account is that Britain would not have given up easily. Think Napoleonic Wars Mk II, with continental blockade etc.

Possible. Not certain, but very possible. Britain certainly would NOT have liked the sight of Germany ruling most of the continent.

Russia would not be beaten until late 15-early 16 at the soonest.

Russia was effectively beaten inside of two months - the hilariously ineffective Tsarist army posed exactly zero threat to Germany, as was amply demonstrated very early on when two enormous Russian armies were comprehensively crushed by a single German force that they collectively outnumbered more than three to one. From then on Russia literally never succeeded in any campaign against Germany. And that was with France and Britain effectively holding Germany off on the Western Front and requiring the commitment of millions of German soldiers there - if the Schlieffen Plan succeeded and French resistance was broken within the month, the BEF might never even have been sent (it was almost not sent anyway), and the Russian Empire would most certainly have crumpled like paper under the weight of the entire German army.

The US might be drawn for the same reasons as historically, protecting their financial investments.

I very much doubt it. No France means no direct British involvement, which means no unrestricted submarine warfare. The US would, if anything, simply start doing more business with Germany - most Americans really didn't give much of a shit about WWI until a couple of years in, and in this scenario the whole thing is basically over by that time.

Also France would not surrender, but move the government to Algeria when Germany reaches the Pyrennees . In WW2 war was very much unwelcome, but in WW1 there was a massive "Alsace-Lorraine back or death sentiment".

There would BE no French government. The German advance was so rapid in OTL that much of the French high command and civilian leadership was still in Paris at the time of the Battle of the Marne; if the Germans are not stopped there, no possible effective resistance could be organized and maintained from Algeria. At that point the French would have, well. . . surrendered.
 
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So what do you think Europe would look like in the wake of such a one sided beat-down. I doubt that Germany would try to conquer France at this point unless the Kaiser is crazier than I thought. But France IS going to suffer somehow as is Russia. You think Germany would take the Rest of Poland?

How about the Austro-Hungarian Empire, with Germany saving their ass what would they do to the Balkans?

Then there's Italy, the third member of this little group who declared that since this is an aggressive war by their allies they have no duty to fight....boy are they going to look bad to their Northern Neighbors.
 
Given the amount of Revanchism such a loss would fuel in the collective consciousness and the sheer intensity of the subsequent Nationalism it would fuel,

I can actually picture this AU's equivalent to National Socialism and following rise to power being born and taking place in France. Probably with a very strong "backstabbing" rhetoric. After all, how else would you explain that the most powerful Army in the world would lose so decisively and so quickly? Surely it would be the product of some sinister conspiracy.
 
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Germany had a really, really good shot at making exactly that happen, actually. If a few things had tipped the other way - and if Moltke hadn't been so paranoid about Russia - they might well have been able to force the surrender of France within a few months.

I disagree, the Schlieffen Plan went extraordinary well, and by the time of the Marne battle at the very end of their logistic tether, and would have had to pause along approximately those lines regardless of French resistance.

The battle of the Marne stopped them as soon as they came out of step ever so slightly; if they had done everything absolutely perfectly, they could have reached Paris, but it was a heavily fortified city at the time. It could not have been besieged or stormed before the autumn rains make the front coagulate along the Seine.

I think France can be beaten by early 1915, but not before unless you make interventions like making morale collapse, fucked-up mobilization, German supernatural strategy, or such things. The historical constraints of WW1 are such.



the Russian Empire would most certainly have crumpled like paper under the weight of the entire German army.

I agree that Russia would most probably be defeated, but it would not surrender so soon.

The German Landser would still have to march to Moscow and probably a bit beyond. That takes a little while and will not happen at the earliest in late 1915 under any circumstances.

Russia was effectively beaten inside of two months -

(while Tannenberg was an outstanding victory, Russia was not beaten there and then.)

From then on Russia literally never succeeded in any campaign against Germany

The Brussilov Offensive.

Brussilov was one of the better commanders of WW1, and it shows what the Russian army could accomplish when not saddled with absolutely dismal leadership.

BEF might never even have been sent (it was almost not sent anyway)

Just an observation: if Britain is not in the war, then the channel ports are not important to defend, and the shorter defence line compensates for the lesser number of troops, and a German right outflank harder to do. (Of course, if later Britain does not join, or does but have to send troops via Bretagne and the Atlantic ports, that's so much the better for the Germans.)


The German advance was so rapid in OTL that much of the French high command and civilian leadership was still in Paris at the time of the Battle of the Marne;

As I said Paris is fortified and the Germans being in the neighbourhood is not the same as it falling. Even if we accept the OP premise of preternatural German and impossibly fast success and they manage encircling it with the French leadership still in it, then a provisional government and army HQ will be designated somewhere south of the Loire, exactly like in 1871.

The US would, if anything, simply start doing more business with Germany - most Americans really didn't give much of a shit about WWI until a couple of years in, and in this scenario the whole thing is basically over by that time.

No they won't, because Royal Navy.

The Central powers would be blockaded, so the US can only trade with the Allies. As trade has to be financially supported, as the war goes on the US has more and more of a staked investment in a British victory.

Though it could take quite a while before a war is declared, or stay just short of it and maintain a pro-British neutrality.

So what do you think Europe would look like in the wake of such a one sided beat-down. I doubt that Germany would try to conquer France at this point unless the Kaiser is crazier than I thought. But France IS going to suffer somehow as is Russia. You think Germany would take the Rest of Poland?

How about the Austro-Hungarian Empire, with Germany saving their ass what would they do to the Balkans?

Then there's Italy, the third member of this little group who declared that since this is an aggressive war by their allies they have no duty to fight....boy are they going to look bad to their Northern Neighbors.

Germany would not take that much territory from France, only the iron mines close to the border. Peace terms at least as harsh as Versailles/1940.

It would remain occupied until Britain came to terms, which could happen after a couple of decades, or never.

Belgium would be set as puppet state, Luxemburg annexesd. In the east, look what happened historically (Brest-Litovsk) a vassal kingdom of Poland with a Habsburg on the throne. Ukraine also. The Baltics annexed to Germany, not immediately but after a few years. Finland independent but a Central ally. Eventually, Germany, Autria-Hungary, and all their vassals/allies will move towards a merger of "Greater Mitteleuropa."


Then there's Italy, the third member of this little group who declared that since this is an aggressive war by their allies they have no duty to fight....boy are they going to look bad to their Northern Neighbors.

Italy stays neutral. One thing that made it very hard to be at war against Britain: Italy was very dependent on coastal freight with steam trampers, especially coal, extremely vulnerable to disruption. By WW2, much of it had gone over to railroad.



In which case probably we would have seen a cold-war-esque period of tension between Britain and Germany that would have led at some unpredictable time into a very, very different World War II.


Britain would not come to terms with what Germany would consider "just" from its perspective. It can go whole-hog on naval build-up, while Germany has to defend/occupy/keep France and Russia.

Perhaps feeling secure on land, Germany goes much more enthusiastically in for unrestricted submarine warfare, with predictable consequences.
If not, here what I think would the war goals:

Germany: unchallengeable military superiority on the continent. Naval parity with Britain. Substantial colonies from Belgium and France.

Britain: balance of power on the continent. RN naval superiority. No large rival colonial empire.

Both were quite set on these conditions.

I can see permanent naval warfare going on for years/decades, and this war called "The Second Great War", the First Great War being the Revolutionary/Napoleonic War ("Great War" being what they were historically called before WW1 took over that name)


Given the amount of Revanchism such a loss would fuel in the collective consciousness and the sheer intensity of the subsequent Nationalism it would fuel,

I can actually picture this AU's equivalent to National Socialism and following rise to power being born and taking place in France. Probably with a very strong "backstabbing" rhetoric. After all, how else would you explain that the most powerful Army in the world would lose so decisively and so quickly? Surely it would be the product of some sinister conspiracy.

Yes, France being the fascist Ur-Land in this timeline is very probable (also Russia, turning inwards with orthodox extremism). There always was a right-wing (conservative/catholic) that despised the 3rd Republic. If it fails, especially as spectacularly as in the OP, they will probably take over. The question is more how fast/gradually, like is it a coup, or they're in power and discard republicanism bit by bit.

Some kind of typical fascist strongman. It is not entirely impossible that the Monarchy is restored, or at least that it is a serious political objectives.

Very possible like Hungary in the interwar, "a kingdom without a king", where Admiral Horty was the dictator and official Regent.
 
This scenario isn't as unlikely as you thing, all you need is for Lanrezac to obey orders and then the Germans roll up the French line like a carpet, triple teaming each French Army in turn from north to south
 
Given the amount of Revanchism such a loss would fuel in the collective consciousness and the sheer intensity of the subsequent Nationalism it would fuel,

I can actually picture this AU's equivalent to National Socialism and following rise to power being born and taking place in France. Probably with a very strong "backstabbing" rhetoric. After all, how else would you explain that the most powerful Army in the world would lose so decisively and so quickly? Surely it would be the product of some sinister conspiracy.
France just isn't anywhere near as strong as Germany. Its economy is far weaker (like, they have maybe a third as much war making potential), its population is merely two thirds to maybe one half as large, and there isn't quite as many ethnic french types lying around as there were Germanics to absorb.

A France started WW2 would end in French defeat much sooner than OTL WW2 ended in German defeat.

Germany utterly eclipsed France as a continental hegemon because the demographics were simply far more favorable to Germany.

Short of France having literally insane birth rates and industrial capacity growth in the years of the armistice. Like, we're talking population booms of jumping from 40 to 80 million in two decades paired with more than tripling France's industrial capacity in the same time frame.

This isn't Kaiserreich where you can wave a magic wand and give France largely unopposed one sided economic growth relative to Germany. And hell at least in Kaiserreich Germany took a while to defeat France so there's some reason for Germany to not watch France like a hawk. If Germany shitstomps France again then there's very little incentive for Germany to not make sure France toes the line.

Once France is pwned, Imperial Russia is probably going to go down pretty hard in short order. With the full might of the Imperial German army bearing down on the Tsar, Russia needs obscene amounts of luck to not get slapped with the mitteleuropa plan by 1916. Hell, when Russia starts standing alone against Germany and Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, and the Ottomans might join in to club the Russians a bit. The Kaiser might just be lenient enough to expend effort to keep the Tsars in power, but he might just let Russia crumble and rot after he lays down a treaty that breaks Russia as a potential threat utterly.

Like, crippling war debts and demands to gib factories and steep military restrictions on Russia just as they're likely to force on France. In addition to well; being forced to basically give up all their Eastern European territory that isn't Russia proper, and if the Ottomans join, likely their caucasian territories.

With the entente basically neutered the Kaiserreich may very well just sit back and relax and then slap down any ill advised revanchist wars from the gutted shells of Russia or France. The French colonial empire is definitely getting gutted that's for sure. At the very least France and Belgium are losing big chunks of African territory. The French Guyana and Indochina might also be on the chopping block depending on how much clay he wants France to gib.

Serbia's definitely getting proper fucked over and with a largely impotent Russia and a rapidly defeated France, Britain has few options for trying to defeat Germany. The Iberian nations are largely impotent, the Scandinavians are similarly weak (and Sweden, the only one of any real strength, has pretty much no reason for fighting Germany, especially given their warm relationship, if anything they're more likely to join the beat up Russia club for Finland), Italy was terrible on the offense and would rather be on the winning team, and Greece and Romania are pretty thoroughly doomed against the CPs.

They could try to put pressure on the Ottomans, but assuming Bulgaria joins, the CPs have direct land routes to reinforce the Ottomans and fighting in the middle east does very little to defeat Germany. This really only leaves trying to take German colonies, which would, as it did historically; accomplish nothing.

Upon recognizing that Germany's position is largely unassailable Britain probably asks for a peace with honor after Russia inevitably falls.
 
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Belgium would be set as puppet state, Luxemburg annexesd. In the east, look what happened historically (Brest-Litovsk) a vassal kingdom of Poland with a Habsburg on the throne. Ukraine also. The Baltics annexed to Germany, not immediately but after a few years. Finland independent but a Central ally. Eventually, Germany, Autria-Hungary, and all their vassals/allies will move towards a merger of "Greater Mitteleuropa."
That is extremely unlikely.
The historical Brest-Litovsk treaty only happened because the Soviets literally walked out of the peace talks. Germany therafter much marched east while Russia crumbled, the diplomats lost their one shot at a treaty and Ludendorff's military supremacist nonsense made the second one so overly harsh in territorial losses.

The original terms were supposed to be a puppet Poland and a puppet Lithuania, which is still feasible under most circumstances (as to the annexation of the infamous border strip, it probably won't happen). I guess it's possible that Finland would declare independance if Russia is sufficiently weakened, but I'm not sure if that will actually hold up over the medium term. The Ottomans, if they even end up allying with the Central Powers, might get the border changes Turkey got OTL (and maybe a few more years of no trouble in the Balkans), but that's probably about it.

People are seriously underestimating Russia's diplomats and politicians. With their main ally down and out in months, they will lean towards peace, Britain or no Britain, and that means basically a white peace with mostly loss of control over their Balkan allies.
 
That is extremely unlikely.
The historical Brest-Litovsk treaty only happened because the Soviets literally walked out of the peace talks. Germany therafter much marched east while Russia crumbled, the diplomats lost their one shot at a treaty and Ludendorff's military supremacist nonsense made the second one so overly harsh in territorial losses.

The original terms were supposed to be a puppet Poland and a puppet Lithuania, which is still feasible under most circumstances (as to the annexation of the infamous border strip, it probably won't happen). I guess it's possible that Finland would declare independance if Russia is sufficiently weakened, but I'm not sure if that will actually hold up over the medium term. The Ottomans, if they even end up allying with the Central Powers, might get the border changes Turkey got OTL (and maybe a few more years of no trouble in the Balkans), but that's probably about it.

People are seriously underestimating Russia's diplomats and politicians. With their main ally down and out in months, they will lean towards peace, Britain or no Britain, and that means basically a white peace with mostly loss of control over their Balkan allies.
That depends on how much Germany wants to destroy Russia's potential as a competitor for Germany. As the war showed, by this point, Russia's largely a push over for Germany and there's little Russia can do to fight off a Germany focused squarely on it. If Germany starts inviting people to the "beat up Russia party" Russia gets to bite the gravel harder.
 
That still assumes that diplomacy in both Germany and Russia is dead (historically it wasn't until Trostky walked out of peace negotiations).
The military-first rule of peace negotations was done under exceptional circumstances which - with France out of the way early - will likely not come up here.
 
That still assumes that diplomacy in both Germany and Russia is dead (historically it wasn't until Trostky walked out of peace negotiations).
The military-first rule of peace negotations was done under exceptional circumstances which - with France out of the way early - will likely not come up here.
The Kaiser might just decide that he can now finally break Russia as a power forever. If he wants to eliminate Russia as a rival now is the time. Knowing Kaiser Wilhelm he might even push for a treaty that essentially shatters Russia into a bunch of easily bullied weak nations.
 
That sounds like a memetic "the Kaiser, so crazy".

First of all, the onset of the war really diminished his role and the political/military side was done by the General Staff (which only really radicalised starting with 1916, and even then diplomacy was given a go in 1917 for the first treaty of Brest-Litovsk, Kreuznach war goal conference or not). It doesn't hinge on him personally.

Second, there were no ideological blinders in place which would have led them to continue fighting a war against Russia (which everybody feared in the first place) and kill an entire generation of young men for castles-in-the-air goals. Not when they can get one or two buffer states set up on the diplomatic table (hell, Poland alone would probably be enough). Taking on Russia is always an immense effort and it's not even sure that France or the UK wouldn't try something again if the German army was deep into Russian territory. That would have been the perfect moment to declare the peace treaty in the west non and void and march on again. I don't think German military and politicians wouldn't have seen that and opted out if they could just win right then and there, with one buffer state to show for it too.
 
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