Evolution Of Man *What If?*

Location
America
Pronouns
He/Him/His
Assume that modern Humanity isn't 200,000 years old, but an unspecified millions of years old. Somehow there is some archaeological evidence, as of the OP, that proves there were civilizations in the more modern sense of entire countries, rather than tiny settlements of a few thousand people that are many centuries older than Sumeria.

In addition, we discover that Humanity somehow evolved like other species, but have actually been around as long as other species that should have had a much longer time to evolve. What kind of impact would this have on modern science?
 
"huh. Neat."

Archaeologists in places other than the Rift Valley and South Africa celebrate that they can do fieldwork while living close to home. Nobody else really notices.
 
There'd be a hell of a lot of interest in what caused humanity to collapse from those civilisations to a small population in Africa being the majority of the species.
 
"That's fascinating," and then the scientists get to work on reconciling the clear evidence we have that anatomically modern Homo sapiens has no records earlier than 300kya, that there's a fairly clear progression of hominid evolution, and that Neanderthals and other closely related homnids diverged less than a million years ago.
 
Why would it have an impact on science as a whole? It'd just be more evidence to be followed up upon, and existing theories to be expanded upon.

The thing about science is that it has no problem with being wrong--indeed, being able to admit previously held beliefs are wrong is one of the foundations of science. The collective knowledge that science provides is built upon our best understanding based on current evidence, and the drive to continue to accrue more evidence to either support existing theories, expand upon them, or provide counterevidence to disprove them.
 
"Neat" is at least underselling it. Archaeologists, history enthusiasts, sci-fi authors, and crackpot conspiracy theorists would be incredibly excited at having a whole new field of stuff to learn about and/or make up bullshit about.
 
It would have a long hard uphill period where the long held conventional belief about how humanity developed slowly has it's well documented and understood evidence slowly upturned by the new understanding as science sorts through the difference between the actual truth and what we just think is truth.

There almost is no such thing as sudden consensus about some new bit of scientific reality. That only happens in pop sci after the scientists have been circling around something for a decade or so. Such a monumental upheaval would be circling archaeological circles for decades before it settled into the new consensus.
 
There'd be a hell of a lot of interest in what caused humanity to collapse from those civilisations to a small population in Africa being the majority of the species.
"Soil and ice cores suggest a marked increase in carbon dioxide and methane concentrations at around the same period. Until recently the leading hypothesis had been increased vulcanism, but a recent theory has linked inscriptions on silicon tablets referring to increased numbers of burnt animal and plant offerings to the god Geedeepi to the phenomenon. Further research is needed."
 
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It would have a long hard uphill period where the long held conventional belief about how humanity developed slowly has it's well documented and understood evidence slowly upturned by the new understanding as science sorts through the difference between the actual truth and what we just think is truth.

There almost is no such thing as sudden consensus about some new bit of scientific reality. That only happens in pop sci after the scientists have been circling around something for a decade or so. Such a monumental upheaval would be circling archaeological circles for decades before it settled into the new consensus.
Yeah. Just go ask some rando what a Denisovan is or what a Neanderthal was like. You will literally get blank stares and GEICO cavemen 99% of the time.
 
Finding the remains of many different advanced civilizations that existed over the span of millions of years would actually be a really concerning find. This is because one of the solutions to the Fermi Paradox is that there is a catastrophic event in the future of advanced civilizations that destroys them before they can colonize the stars. Or at least... all to many of them.

So if we found advanced ruins in our past, there would be a large chance that we'd be looking at the remains of past cycles of attempting to develop an advanced civilization. And one then has to really start wondering what took them out and if there's anything one can do so that we don't end up on the chopping block like they did.

But hey... I guess the Fermi Paradox might at least be resolved then?
 
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Finding the remains of many different advanced civilizations that existed over the span of millions of years would actually be a really concerning find. This is because one of the solutions to the Fermi Paradox is that there is a catastrophic event in the future of advanced civilizations that destroys them before they can colonize the stars. Or at least... all to many of them.

So if we found advanced ruins in our past, there would be a large chance that we'd be looking at the remains of past cycles of attempting to develop an advanced civilization. And one then has to really start wondering what took them out and if there's anything one can do so that we don't end up on the chopping block like they did.

But hey... I guess the Fermi Paradox might at least be resolve then?

Yeah, the Great Filter hypothesis would get an enormous shot in the arm from this.
 
It would break a lot of what we know about genetics. There is a rough idea of when (and where) certain mutations that make us what we are appeared. For example we have a very rough idea of how long ago Y-adam appeared or when was mitochondrial eve. No one has of course dug up these hypothetical specimens, it is derived using established methods of analyzing genomes. If you have humans long before that it would throw our whole understanding of the science of genetics and methods we use in great question.
 
"That's fascinating," and then the scientists get to work on reconciling the clear evidence we have that anatomically modern Homo sapiens has no records earlier than 300kya, that there's a fairly clear progression of hominid evolution, and that Neanderthals and other closely related homnids diverged less than a million years ago.
That said I am kinda curious about the last couple of interglacials:

Homo Sapiens existed for the previous two, and fossil records show that we disperse out of Africa during the latter one, only to be outcompeted by Neanderthals, and overall the pattern has been that we keep finding out that humanity and our relatives spread out earlier and more repeatedly than thought, and that there were more relatives than thought.

So why didn't Homo Sapiens or any of our immediate relatives and ancestors pull off agriculture during those thousands of years windows where the climate was more suitable? Or did some of them get that far, but all records have been lost? An industrial civilization would've left enough of a footprint to detect, things like taking all the easy to get at fossil fuels, but a medieval or ancient level one would be considerably harder.

But still the question remains, why was it this interglacial? Were the others too short or turbulent? Was humanity just not ready? Was it just luck?
 
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My money's on luck. There isnt enough evidence to even call it a hypothesis, but I've seen it claimed that clearcutting for agriculture caused just enough global warming (from carbon release and loss of carbon uptake) to keep the interglacial going as long as it has.

Not sure I believe it, I think the Little Ice Age is the one we fucked up and that one got fucked more by industrialization (which then continued well past the point of solving the little ice age and came out the other end), but still, it would explain things if true, since it'd mean agriculture causing a long interglacial rather than the other way around.
 
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There's various speculations in the area of why civilization now, for now we don't really know for sure. But there are some interesting bits and pieces around.

For instance I once ran in to a possible find for a much older case of domesticated plants that might have ended up abandoned. Which if true would imply that the timing might have been more determined by factors beyond human control, rather then humans unable to do so. One could also consider how America so far we know developed agriculture independently for Europe, Asia and Africa in this very same time period. (Though sadly humans were possibly only available for that time frame, or not... data isn't completely conclusive on how early humans might have come to the Americas. Still this isn't great evidence due to that, but it is still a parallel development never the less)

Another interesting thing is if you look at the graph you posted, aside of the most recent era the overall climate hasn't been really all that stable for longer periods of time. And building up cities and nations so far we can tell is positively helped by some level of stability. Major changes in weather and climate have tended to caused agricultural disasters followed by major internal issues for nations after all, revolution etc.

The current climate stability plateau isn't entirely unheard of either, though the last one was quite awhile ago, I think it might be that earliest peak you can see in your graph at about 400k years ago. Though I'm not sure about that, and as @Zap Rowsdower noted, there is some speculation that further human activities may have contributed in further delaying or at least reducing cooling effects compared to otherwise. As there has been a cool down, if but a slow one for at least 3000-4000 years now I believe. And considering the other ice age peaks, a cool down by now wouldn't really be surprising.


So based on for instance the above points, one might easily conclude that maybe the long relative stable climate this time around contributed to the development this time. With a situation that led to more predictable outcomes for agriculture. Which allows for a population boom, which leads to villages -> cities -> city states -> nations -> empires. Or one could just be looking at a coincidental correlation which has nothing to do with it. Hard to really say for sure, maybe more research will find something that will make it more clear.
 
Yeah. Just go ask some rando what a Denisovan is or what a Neanderthal was like. You will literally get blank stares and GEICO cavemen 99% of the time.

Or you might be lucky enough ask someone who knows a lot of someones alive today with a bit of Neanderthal ancestry and one of those someones is almost certainly you.
 
My money's on luck. There isnt enough evidence to even call it a hypothesis, but I've seen it claimed that clearcutting for agriculture caused just enough global warming (from carbon release and loss of carbon uptake) to keep the interglacial going as long as it has.
The problem with "luck" is that agriculture has been developed independently dozens of times. Over and over and over again. Since the last Ice Age, nearly all areas of human habitation developed agriculture, and mostly on their own. Agriculture almost came naturally to us. Indeed, with the many intermediary steps towards true agriculture, one could almost say human populations easily slipped into it.

...but only in this Interglacial. Not the previous ones. Or so it would appear...
 
The basis for the neolithic revolution (agriculture etcetera) is the paleolithic revolution.

As soon as the circumstances were right, ie an interglacial, humans could apply their paleolithic revolution technologies and develop the neolithic revolution.

The question is, why was there a paleolithic revolution about 50,000 yrs ago, when anatomically modern humans had existed for at least a quarter million years?
 
The basis for the neolithic revolution (agriculture etcetera) is the paleolithic revolution.

As soon as the circumstances were right, ie an interglacial, humans could apply their paleolithic revolution technologies and develop the neolithic revolution.

The question is, why was there a paleolithic revolution about 50,000 yrs ago, when anatomically modern humans had existed for at least a quarter million years?

That probably has to do with a quirk of human genetics. A lot of genes related to brain development are located on the X chromosome.

Boys get their brain from their mothers while girls get their brain from both parents. There are more very smart and very stupid boys than there are girls. Very stupid boys tend not to father children so the really bad X chromosomes often don't get passed from father to daughter.

Every human generation is slightly smarter than the last and it took awhile for us to go from "anatomically modern" to "behaviorally modern".
 
That probably has to do with a quirk of human genetics. A lot of genes related to brain development are located on the X chromosome.

Boys get their brain from their mothers while girls get their brain from both parents. There are more very smart and very stupid boys than there are girls. Very stupid boys tend not to father children so the really bad X chromosomes often don't get passed from father to daughter.
Uh. Are you sure about that? Care to cite evidence?
 
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Yeah most of that's actually mostly true, but poorly stated.

Sex Differences in Variability in General Intelligence: A New Look at the Old Question.

But it's more that because X chromosomes encode so much more information than Y chromosomes, and males only have one copy, as a sub-population males are more sensitive to drift mutations that would be moderated by the other copy if they were females. So males tend to have a higher standard deviation from mean for measures of intelligence than females do. But from a methodology standpoint it's usually a pain in the ass to extract that from much larger signals from environmental factors, especially social factors. People who were malnourished as children are flatly less intelligent because nerves are very expensive to grow and maintain, girls tend to be allowed less school than boys, genetically meaningless social class position really matters to education attainment, all that stuff is simply louder. Like it's really hard to test intelligence in a way that isn't a proxy for how much school somebody got.

This is also true for other stuff like height and weight, but that's messy for separate reasons -- it's significantly easier to get a biologically valid measurement for height than intelligence, but height is even more subject to childhood malnutrition, and there's all the stuff with hormonal differences.

This is also why it's possible for human females to be tetrachromes and not males, which means that on average human female color perception is statistically better than male color perception.

So more broadly, human males have higher standard deviations from mean than human females in any trait that happens to use genes on the X chromosome. (Presumably this is true of all mammals and maybe would go the other way in birds, but I haven't seen research proving that particularly.)

The assertion that dumb guys tend to have fewer offspring than smart guys is an assertion I've not seen very well supported. Like in general I suppose it's likely that males would be more sensitive to anti-selection of deleterious traits simply because it's one X-copy, but intelligence is fiendishly complicated and relies on tons of genes, and anyway it's only in the last two hundred years or so that traits other than disease resistance & starvation tolerance could even theoretically matter to human evolution. But even that might not matter compared to how much raw population size has accelerated our evolution in the last ~40k years.
 
and anyway it's only in the last two hundred years or so that traits other than disease resistance & starvation tolerance could even theoretically matter to human evolution.
Clearly intelligence mattered, else there probably would be no reason to support so many neurons. So I wouldn't say that those were the only factors that were pretty significant long ago. The invention of tools like fire, which is rather useful, seem to imply this is likely the case as well. In the end 'anything' that improves your actual survival ability as a species can be selected for.
 
I mean, on an evolutionary timescale, is it more advantageous to be an extra smart guy who's better at visual-spatial memory like remembering where all the berries were over the last decade or whatever, or a total dumdum who doesn't need as many food calories esp during the midwinter famine period.

Like the very metabolic expensiveness of nerves is why intelligence would be selected against in humans. We're like five generations outside seasonal food limitations being a huge evolutionary pressure, I think it's reasonable to say that we're "just smart enough" to fill our evolutionary niche (whatever that was) and absolutely not any smarter than that.

Fire was hugely useful because it breaks down complex polymer molecules to simplier, less-interlocked units, so you have a ton more food-energy available. Especially for meat, which we're not super-great at digesting, since our primeval ancestors were probably fruitivores/insectivores like chimps and bonabos. Like it's possible that eating cooked meat was in the beginning just us sponging off firehawks.

Like there's a pretty good argument that more than "intelligence", our secret sauce as a species is more the extreme ability to cooperate. Like are you really smarter than a blue-ringed octopus or maybe a crow, or does language + big mammal lifespan just mean you can basically automatically inherit pretty much thousands of years of experience at living?
 
@daniel_gudman If I remember the tests on various kinds of intelligence well enough, I do believe humans have some interesting extra factors you don't tend to see in most species. And while I can't quite recall for sure, I thought humans even have some that no other species are known to have as well. So while cooperation certainly is important, I think the intelligence has its role to play as well.

Also it is pretty clear that we have had selection on larger amount of neurons in the last million years or more. So clearly something was causing that to happen.

Thus unless you wish to argue evolution was selection an energy sink for a million years or more, clearly something is up. And this was giving some kind of major advantage to make up for the massive increased energy costs.

Maybe a smarter person would also store some food for the midwinter famine? Was able to use fire more efficiently? Could make or recombine tools more effectively?



PS, the article on human evolution rate was interesting. Apparently it isn't due to raw population size though and far more due to having a large population base in highly different circumstances. Examples of such being, differently climates, plant/animal life, artificial habitats and quite possibly the changing of culture itself as it evolves itself over time due to internal and external factors. Each of those factors creates very large selection pressures on the populations and this seems to be causing very large and accelerating rates of change in the last tens of thousands of years. Guess this might sink the idea that our culture/tech would cause our evolution to stagnate though, as it seems to be causing it to exponentially accelerate instead.
 
If I remember the tests on various kinds of intelligence well enough, I do believe humans have some interesting extra factors you don't tend to see in most species. And while I can't quite recall for sure, I thought humans even have some that no other species are known to have as well. So while cooperation certainly is important, I think the intelligence has its role to play as well....

You thinking of The Recursive Mind maybe?

Because it's kinda the hypothesis that a runaway feedback loop in recursion of the "theory of mind" was what basically removed the upper limit "smart enough" for the particular hominids we evolved from, but strongly selected us to really care a lot about social connections between humans way more above, like, remembering where a bunch of waterholes are by ranked choice, and what times of years they are best, which is more the elephant model of intelligence. (This is starting to get into Evolutionary Psychology, which you have to be careful of, because as a field EvoPsych has got a lot of bigotry masquerading as hypotheses.)

Like it's not just that we cooperate, it's that we're so intelligent because we cooperate, they work together in a feedback loop; we are capable of extreme cooperation because we're highly intelligent animals, and we're highly intelligent because "more intelligence" always kept improving our special evolutionary advantage of cooperation.

But generally the trend over the last fifty years has been some philosopher making a claim about what makes us special and unique, and some rando field biologist is like "actually the snails or whatever I study happen to have that too, here's a link to the paper I wrote about that five years ago"


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Apparently it isn't due to raw population size though and far more due to having a large population base in highly different circumstances.

I mean it's really tough to disentangle "raw population size" vs. "can colonize so many areas that have different climates etc"
Like big pop numbers are a necessary result of pushing up your total carrying capacity by inhabiting basically everywhere. So it's kind of hard to call them different effects.
Being in constant genetic contact between all these diverse populations so we don't just fragment into daughter-species is also a critical implication.

"Miscegenation is a universal moral good" is one of the more context-fantastic conclusions that you get pushed to by studying this stuff


Guess this might sink the idea that our culture/tech would cause our evolution to stagnate though, as it seems to be causing it to exponentially accelerate instead.

Kinda the "common sense" in biology right now, is that now that the crushing pressure of diseases like diphtheria and measles has been removed, and that we've got food basically "solved", if we can maintain this technological-civilization state for evolutionary timescales, then our evolution is going to take off like a rocket in some crazy direction like mate or kin selection. (As genetic engineering has come on, it's becoming increasingly comprehensible evolution will also go a layer more meta with designer babies etc).

Literal galaxy-brain thought is if we slowboat colonize other worlds, we're very probably going to speciate, at least becoming a ring species.
 
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