Eclipse Phase General (also Self-promotion)

Eukie

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Eclipse Phase is a fun game that's basically a mix of Charles Stross Accelerando, Richard K. Morgan's Altered Carbon, and Call of Cthulhu with a heavy dose of Delta Green. It advertises itself as a "roleplaying game of transhuman conspiracy and horror", and does a lot to present a dark, uncertain, high-tech post-apocalyptic world.

So, general thread. Talk about it. Brag about how your character is totally a more radical transhuman than some other person's radically transhuman character. Talk about how your latest Firewall ops ran into more problems and had a higher deathcount that anyone else has run into so far. Discuss the intricacies of future high-tech living, where everyone has the powers of the NSA at their fingertips and there are more CCTV cameras around than in modern Britain. Talk about the flaws of the Reputation economy, and how to fix them. Discuss the impact of various kinds of nanomanufacturing on economics, politics, and daily life.

To kick it off, some commentary on "sousveillance" by Peter Watts, and the potential for political repression in the distributed cloud-computing future. I find the observations food for thought with regards to the ubiquitous computing in Eclipse Phase.

Oh, and as for the self-promotion, ES and I wrote up some parts of (and are still theoretically working on) an alternative Outer System sourcebook on SB; if there's any interest, we could repost what we wrote here. And perhaps also add some new stuff~
 
I always loved the Eclipse Phase setting. Never played it, but the idea and world creation was great. They should have just written some books about it..
 
EP is kinda neat, yeah. There's a lot to like in the setting. And a lot to quibble with, but oh well.

Unfortunately I am so tired of d100 systems. I dislike the basic mechanics so much, I basically don't want to play it. Anyone tried to hack it, or convert it?
 
Usandru: There's World of Eclipse, a conversion for the World of Darkness system. It makes some questionable choices with regards to certain implementations or features, but is a pretty solid conversion with respect to completeness and usability. There's also a half-finished FATE conversion here, and you might be able to poke Amorous Intent for whatever rules he uses when he runs his Eclipse FATE games. And it appears that there's also a Marvel Heroic Roleplaying conversion, though I don't know anything about it.

I'm also working on a Phoenix Command-like conversion for EP, but I doubt anyone but me actually wants to play that. :V
 
Usandru: There's World of Eclipse, a conversion for the World of Darkness system.
Wait wait WHAT
*squee*
Oh, nWoD. But still!
Making this work is going to be bloody interesting.

There's also a half-finished FATE conversion here, and you might be able to poke Amorous Intent for whatever rules he uses when he runs his Eclipse FATE games.
Hell yeah, hyped too.
Even if I've not played it >yet<, the system is interesting and player-and-gm-friendly.

I'm also working on a Phoenix Command-like conversion for EP, but I doubt anyone but me actually wants to play that. :V
This Phoenix Command?
How are you going to get all the futuretech stats?
 
Usandru: There's World of Eclipse, a conversion for the World of Darkness system. It makes some questionable choices with regards to certain implementations or features, but is a pretty solid conversion with respect to completeness and usability. There's also a half-finished FATE conversion here, and you might be able to poke Amorous Intent for whatever rules he uses when he runs his Eclipse FATE games. And it appears that there's also a Marvel Heroic Roleplaying conversion, though I don't know anything about it.

I'm also working on a Phoenix Command-like conversion for EP, but I doubt anyone but me actually wants to play that. :V

Interesting, thanks!

I'm overall pretty 'meh' on Storyteller, but it does work quite well and quite straightforwardly. I really need to actually read the FATE rules.

Honestly, though, the Phoenix Command conversion sounds really neat. :p

Then again, I play tabletop wargames (real tabletop wargames like A Victory Lost :V), so I'm probably a bit odd there. Since you can deal with high lethality modern combat and just introduce lots of bots and drones for each side to let them soak some casualties, it's probably one of the better settings for high crunch 'modern' tactical combat. Maybe plug that into a diceless, or near diceless social mechanic...?

Well, it's an interesting thought.
 
I'm a huge fan of Eclipse Phase. I'm looking forward to the mini-sourcebook on the argonauts.

Has anyone here read the latest pre-canned adventure that came with the Transhuman Kickstarter - The Devotees? I did because I don't intend to play it and it has some very interesting revelations.

Cognite had it's own seed AI project before the fall that was damn close to working when they canned it due to the fall. But they kept copies of the AI at various stages of development. And recently they've restarted their seed AI research, but with a focus on how to make Seed AIs loyal rather than simply creating them. To this end they took an older copy of their Seed AI (but still super-transhuman), removed its desire to self-improve and made it into the ultimate psycho-surgeon. It was intended to operate on later copies of the seed AI to ensure their loyalty, of course it was never intended to operate outside of an airgapped Cognite lab. But now after a raid the Nine Lives syndicate has stolen a copy without quite knowing what it is other than the fact that it's good at psycho-surgery...
 
Blast Flame: The Devotees is Creative Commons NP/SA; care to share it with the rest of us?

It doesn't surprise me that Cognite (or any hypercorp that dabbles in computers or human brains) has a Seed AI, but I find it difficult to believe that Nine Lives could just walk in and steal it. I'd certainly be interested to see how the writers sell that happening, and how they present a psychosurgeon Seed AI as working.

How are you going to get all the futuretech stats?

Make them up wholesale or base them off quoted fluff values (like how Disposable Seeker Launchers are said to launch at Mach 3), occasionally reality-checking with real-life engineering/physics. Not to brag or anything (totally to brag), but I kind of happen to be the person who cracked the most difficult parts of how to create new weapons for PCCS; give me the real-world stats of a gun and I can give your its PCCS stats.

Honestly, though, the Phoenix Command conversion sounds really neat. :p

Then again, I play tabletop wargames (real tabletop wargames like A Victory Lost :V), so I'm probably a bit odd there. Since you can deal with high lethality modern combat and just introduce lots of bots and drones for each side to let them soak some casualties, it's probably one of the better settings for high crunch 'modern' tactical combat. Maybe plug that into a diceless, or near diceless social mechanic...?

Well, it's an interesting thought.

My tabletop wargame background is Advanced Squad Leader. :V

Slightly more topical, I would recommend GURPS: Social Engineering and GURPS: Mysteries to anyone who wants to run EP. The former has an excellent system for dealing with social skills, and the latter is one of the best books ever written for any RPG; it's a must-have for running investigation games and... well... mysteries. Vampire: The Requiem: Damnation City is another great book which deals with how to run convoluted, secret politics (like hypercorps or extropian powermongrers) and also how to make evocative cities. Given how many cities there are in EP, it's pretty handy.
 
Devotees Page 3:
Cognite's Aten lab had access to only a handful of
egos, though, and due to office politics didn't want
to requisition them from corporate. The initial results
of letting AWE work on transhuman egos had been
promising, so instead they approached Nine Lives
for more test subjects. The lieutenant of the Petro
Nanchon (a faction within Nine Lives; see The
Nanchons, p. 4) on Aten took Cognite's deposit but
didn't have enough egos to fill the order. So he put in
a buy order for the difference with Lam Cong Dong,
head of the Rada Nanchon.
The Cognite lab's requisition for the egos to be
supplied was all over the map. Lam was curious.
Whatever Cognite was up to, they weren't setting up
a pool of virtual cubicle workers. Smelling opportunity,
she slipped a worm in with the egos that would install
a back door in the lab's mesh. Lam and a team of
hackers then went in, tossed the lab's servers, and stole
a copy of AWE. Cognite's security detected them before
the infiltration was complete. They made off with
enough documentation to understand AWE's purpose,
however, but not its true nature as the fork of a seed AI.

It goes on to provide exposition on how Nine Lives got to where it is, mentioning an ongoing back channel relationship between groups like Nine Lives/The ID Crew and the Hypercorps. Apparently some of them aren't above recruiting members of those organizations interested in going legitimate.

More Page 3:

Due to the advanced technology required, soul trafficking
started as a white-collar pursuit. Deniable
holding companies began using forked employees to
fulfill labor quotas on dangerous extraterrestrial development
projects. Non-consensual forking also provided
an endless supply of test subjects for early experiments
in psychosurgery, mind emulation, and integration
psychology. All of this activity made the technology
involved considerably cheaper and more accessible.
What wasn't accessible were big opportunities for
newcomers to get rich off the technology—at least,
legitimately. The pre-Fall corporate sphere had almost
zero social mobility, with the oligarchs as gatekeepers.
They'd long ago used the advantages of genetic
manipulation and backups to ensure a permanent
place at the top for themselves and their progeny, even
as they competed viciously with one another.
Gangs like Nine Lives and the ID Crew got their
start picking up the corps' scraps. They amassed
armies of enslaved egos to serve as human bot-nets,
put infomorphs to work in virtual bordellos, and
supplied egos to pariah governments. Their ruthless
ambitions went after any opportunity the corps
wouldn't touch for fear of PR backlash.
At the same time, a back-channel relationship
developed between the corps and the soul traffickers
that continues to this day. Just as mainstream late
20th-century technology companies closely followed
pornographers who were innovating in areas like
e-commerce and online video, the hypercorps kept a
close eye on what the gangs were doing. Though the
corps never touted their resumes, they even recruited
criminal engineers and psychosurgeons who wanted
to go legit.
 
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My tabletop wargame background is Advanced Squad Leader. :V


You win. :p

Slightly more topical, I would recommend GURPS: Social Engineering and GURPS: Mysteries to anyone who wants to run EP. The former has an excellent system for dealing with social skills, and the latter is one of the best books ever written for any RPG; it's a must-have for running investigation games and... well... mysteries. Vampire: The Requiem: Damnation City is another great book which deals with how to run convoluted, secret politics (like hypercorps or extropian powermongrers) and also how to make evocative cities. Given how many cities there are in EP, it's pretty handy.

4th Ed, I assume? I'll have to pick up Mysteries next time I succumb to temptation then. Alas, I've only managed to skim Social Engineering, because argh, time.
 
Meh. I used to be a big supporter of EP ever since the corebook came out, but given the hypocrisy the developers have shown on their forums (silencing anyone who disagrees with them politically under the auspice of stopping "group attacks" that are simple statements of the truth, while touting themselves as being big believers in open communication), but now it's gotten something of a sour taste to me. I doubt I'll ever buy any more of their books, and I encourage the rest of you not to do so either.
 
Devotees Page 3:
Cognite's Aten lab had access to only a handful of
egos, though, and due to office politics didn't want
to requisition them from corporate. The initial results
of letting AWE work on transhuman egos had been
promising, so instead they approached Nine Lives
for more test subjects. The lieutenant of the Petro
Nanchon (a faction within Nine Lives; see The
Nanchons, p. 4) on Aten took Cognite's deposit but
didn't have enough egos to fill the order. So he put in
a buy order for the difference with Lam Cong Dong,
head of the Rada Nanchon.
The Cognite lab's requisition for the egos to be
supplied was all over the map. Lam was curious.
Whatever Cognite was up to, they weren't setting up
a pool of virtual cubicle workers. Smelling opportunity,
she slipped a worm in with the egos that would install
a back door in the lab's mesh. Lam and a team of
hackers then went in, tossed the lab's servers, and stole
a copy of AWE. Cognite's security detected them before
the infiltration was complete. They made off with
enough documentation to understand AWE's purpose,
however, but not its true nature as the fork of a seed AI.

"Durr we are stoopid hypercorp we are so dumb we don't keep our top secret horrifically illegal Seed AI research on a closed network. What are air gaps?"

Much what I'd expect from EP.
 
"Durr we are stoopid hypercorp we are so dumb we don't keep our top secret horrifically illegal Seed AI research on a closed network. What are air gaps?"

Much what I'd expect from EP.

Syndicate: Still the best anti-corporate sci-fi because the corporations actually get to win some (read: most) of the time. We need more plucky underdogs and moral ambiguity.

Which honestly is a pretty good tagline for anything.
 
"Durr we are stoopid hypercorp we are so dumb we don't keep our top secret horrifically illegal Seed AI research on a closed network. What are air gaps?"

Much what I'd expect from EP.

The AI was explicitly stated in the text as being designed to only ever run on an airgapped network though, which confused me a bit.

Maybe they were implying that the lab director had gone off the rails of was violating company policy in more ways than simply contracting nine lives.
 
"Durr we are stoopid hypercorp we are so dumb we don't keep our top secret horrifically illegal Seed AI research on a closed network. What are air gaps?"

Much what I'd expect from EP.

"Let's outsource the horrifically evil soul-trading that would turn public opinion and even other hypercorps against us to untrustworthy criminals!"

Meh. I used to be a big supporter of EP ever since the corebook came out, but given the hypocrisy the developers have shown on their forums (silencing anyone who disagrees with them politically under the auspice of stopping "group attacks" that are simple statements of the truth, while touting themselves as being big believers in open communication), but now it's gotten something of a sour taste to me. I doubt I'll ever buy any more of their books, and I encourage the rest of you not to do so either.

The so-called "silencing" came after you made repeated statements equivalent to, or verbatim, that "all feminists are anti-male bigots", accused the moderators of hating men, and brushed women being raped under the carpet as "an advantage women enjoy". Other people have been banned for racism, posting PMs in public, and repeated ad hominem arguments. Actual instances of silencing you'll have trouble finding. I think you're unfairly characterizing the developers are hypocrites when they are not.
 
Meh. I used to be a big supporter of EP ever since the corebook came out, but given the hypocrisy the developers have shown on their forums (silencing anyone who disagrees with them politically under the auspice of stopping "group attacks" that are simple statements of the truth, while touting themselves as being big believers in open communication), but now it's gotten something of a sour taste to me. I doubt I'll ever buy any more of their books, and I encourage the rest of you not to do so either.

Before anyone gets too concerned I happened across a post on reddit the other day while searching for "Eclipse Phase".



I think we can guess the manner of disagreement Nick had with the Eclipse Phase staff and decide for ourselves whether we agree with him.
 
I don't think that "Affairs of other boards" is against the rules here, and I'm not really looking to start an argument, but I can't really let this mischaracterisation of me stand.

The so-called "silencing" came after you made repeated statements equivalent to, or verbatim, that "all feminists are anti-male bigots",
That's because they are. Like I said, they called simple statements of the truth "group attacks". I challenge you to find a feminist group that's done anything to help men, while the list of feminists groups that have rallied against any legislation that helps men is quite long (which I posted in that thread, repeatedly).

accused the moderators of hating men,
No, I accused feminists of hating men. You know, because they do.

and brushed women being raped under the carpet as "an advantage women enjoy".
No, I stated that when women get raped, people care about it, but when men get raped, noone cares. That is the advantage I was talking about. (Or, well, one of them, anyway. Women have lots of advantages, and a lot of the "disadvantages" that feminists like to harp on about are actually advantages, when you look at them from a different perspective.)
 
Syndicate: Still the best anti-corporate sci-fi because the corporations actually get to win some (read: most) of the time. We need more plucky underdogs and moral ambiguity.

Which honestly is a pretty good tagline for anything.

I like to draw upon various sources when characterizing Eclipse Phase. My Planetary Consortium draws heavily from modern-day China, since the corporate capitalist state of the PC has an easy analogue in the state-capitalism of the People's Republic, and I like to tone down the institutionalized slavery because its such a cheap and boring way to portray the PC as mustache-twistingly evil.

I also like to base Firewall heavily on Delta Green from the eponymous game, because highly competent, insular, and paranoid conspiracy-theorists with low budgets, limited resources and powerful enemies is more fun than the foggy plot-generator with seemingly unlimited resources and funds that the core books describe.
 
I'll admit, I really really like the idea of Eclipse Phase but I have never actually run across anyone running a game of it. And I don't really consider myself to be a particularly good GM, so I'm not going to be the one to start a game.
 
Once or twice, in the EP thread on SB, people would comment that ES and I had made the Jovian Republic "good" or "heroic" or words to the effect. This was never an objective; we wanted a Republic that was hypocritical, brutal, authoritarian, and full of inequality. Just not pointless or un-fun authoritarian brutality. To that effect, I wish to shamelessly self-promote Rimward Revisited with another piece of fluff on the JR:

The Jovian Republic - Demographics
Original Colonists
The pre-Fall colonists of the Jovian Republic are on average more wealthy than the refugees and immigrants. The original colonists were selected by their respective governments for their above-average physical and mental aptitudes, as well as psychological stability; this gives the original colonists and their descendants an upper edge in the competitive aspects of Jovian society. The majority of Jovian industrial capital found itself in the hands of either the government or in the hands of oligarchs from among the pre-Fall colonists. Together with cronyism and disdain for the refugees and immigrants, this has served to stratify the original colonists as the upper class and upper-middle class elite of the Jovian Republic.

Fall Refugees
When the Fall came, Jupiter was hardly the ideal refuge; it was distant, inhospitable and dangerous, so the majority of the emigrants sought safety on Luna and Mars, which had sprawling, well-developed cities, infrastructure capable of supporting large populations, and in the case of Mars, an almost habitable atmosphere and a demand for labour.

Then the first reports came in that the TITANs were on Luna, and things stirred; Earth's moon was no longer safe. Then the TITANs hit Mars, and all hell broke loose. A wave of refugees from Luna and Mars, fleeing from the wars that ravaged the Inner System, washed up on Jupiter's shores. Today, the Fall refugees are the largest single group in the Jovian Republic. Demographically, they comprise both refugees from Earth and space colonists from Luna and Mars that fled when the TITANs spread out of Earth's gravity well. The latter include a somewhat prominent population of Rusters and Alpiners. These Martians tend to not be satisfied with the state of affairs with regards to discrimination and the morph tax levied upon their morphological capital.

Immigrants
A small but steady population of immigrants trickle into the Jovian Republic each year. There are as many motivations as there are people, but the majority are ideological immigrants who reject the self-mutilation and pie-in-the-sky techno-utopianism of the radical transhumanists. Others again immigrate to escape from slavery of the Planetary Consortium and the Extropians, as the Jovian Republic condemns slavery and offers political asylum and citizenship to escaped indentures. The Republic is cautious of autonomous AIs, and has a large demand for skilled labour in the industrial sectors, which causes many people who would be replaced by AIs and fall between the cracks in the Consortium to seek a safe, comfortable and prosperous life on Jupiter.

Officially, the Republic does not go digging into the morphological past of immigrants, and are perfectly willing to look through the fingers at infomorph refugees having been uploaded; who are they to judge the poor alpha-forks, who were forced into the life and memories of another person, who might even be dead? Infugees just receive a permanent mark in their file, are reinstated into a flesh-and-blood body resembling their birth-morph, and are barred from certain high-security positions in the government and military. The pragmatic need for labour and the value in projecting an open, democratic image is worth more to the Republic than dogma, it seems.

Unofficially, the truth is somewhat darker. In addition to the permanent mark all uploads have in their files, infomorph asylum seekers are all considered to be potential spies, infiltrators, terrorists or saboteurs. They are often harassed by the Federal Police, and will find it near-impossible to get a job at any level of federal or city-state government, police or the military. Instead of spending their mandatory military service in the military, they are often put to work on public works projects and low-risk mining operations. They cannot hold any job requiring a security clearance, and many major industries will not employ them. Big Sister keeps a constant eye on the Mesh activity of former infugees; any dissent or government criticism is investigated is treated as evidence the infugee may be an agent provocateur, leading to night-time arrests and hours of interrogation. Still, it is preferable to slavery and forced psychosurgery.

>>>NEW SIDEBAR
"Let me tell you why we treat infugees in this way. Because time and time again, the other powers of the Solar System have shown that they have no respect whatsoever for the laws of conventional war held on Earth. The Autonomist Alliance whines on and on about how we oppress refugees. You know why they do that? Because they send hundreds, even thousands of discardable, deniable assets as infiltrators every year, and no doubt even with our precautions, some get through the net. If they didn't send indoctrinated brainwashed assassins with hidden programmed directives, then we wouldn't have to treat every immigrant as a potential security threat!"
>>>END SIDEBAR

No, I accused feminists of hating men. You know, because they do.

I don't know. Which is strange, given that I'm an ardent feminist. You'd think that if I hated men, I'd know about it.
 
Hell, you'd think that I'd know that I hate myself, given that I'm male and a Feminist. Except no, it turns out that being a feminist only means you want equality between the sexes, which doesn't really require me to hate myself.
 
I don't know. Which is strange, given that I'm an ardent feminist. You'd think that if I hated men, I'd know about it.
If you're serious about feminism, you almost certainly do, you just don't realise it because you rationalise it away as "fighting the Patriarchy" or "lol fedora-wearing neckbeards, cry some more". The Patriarchy Theory is the core of feminist ideology, and it's inherently anti-male; if you believe that there is a systematic oppression of women by men and society, congratulations, you hate men.
 
The existence of a patriarchy doesn't mean that every man is consciously plotting to bring down women. Those men and women who do have consciously misogynistic beliefs are part of it, certainly, but it can just as easily refer to people doing things as they've always been done or doing things "the safe, well tested way" (eg girls toys being predominantly pink barbie/baby dolls and most science toys being marketed to boys probably isn't due to people consciously plotting to keep girls down so much as it is the fear that deviating from this will lose them profits or possibly even just not considering doing it any other way), trends in society that can't be pinned down on any individual in particular (eg there can be good and fine reasons for any individual movie to fail the bechdel test such as Gravity failing despite having a strong female protagonist due to its small cast - it's the trend across movies as a whole that's troubling), etc.
 
The existence of a patriarchy doesn't mean that every man is consciously plotting to bring down women. Those men and women who do have consciously misogynistic beliefs are part of it, certainly, but it can just as easily refer to people doing things as they've always been done or doing things "the safe, well tested way" (eg girls toys being predominantly pink barbie/baby dolls and most science toys being marketed to boys probably isn't due to people consciously plotting to keep girls down so much as it is the fear that deviating from this will lose them profits or possibly even just not considering doing it any other way), trends in society that can't be pinned down on any individual in particular (eg there can be good and fine reasons for any individual movie to fail the bechdel test such as Gravity failing despite having a strong female protagonist due to its small cast - it's the trend across movies as a whole that's troubling), etc.
It's the assumption that women are always the victims and men are always victimisers that is the problem with Patriarchy Theory. Girl toys are mostly dolls because that's what most girls like; most boy toys are action figures and vehicles because that's what most boys like. It's a biological difference between us, and that's perfectly fine. It's also the root of why women tend to choose different professions than men, have different priorities in life, and thus earn less money as a result when taken as a group. It's not sexism; it's simply people making different choices.

To call it sexism is to smear men and vilify them as oppressors, when they aren't. Hell, that's not even taking into account the fact that feminists are hyperfocused on how elite men tend to perform elite women, while paying no attention to the other end of the scale (when was the last time you heard feminists crying out for more female plumbers and sanitation workers?), or how they get fucked over by the system.

But then, this is the Eclipse Phase thread, not the argue about feminism thread. Maybe we should move this particular discussion to a thread in NSFW?
 
It's the assumption that women are always the victims and men are always victimisers that is the problem with Patriarchy Theory.

But I don't believe that nor do most of the other feminists I personally follow.

Phyllis Schlafly is an example of a woman supporting the oppression of the patriarchy.
And men too can be hurt by patriarchal beliefs. Beliefs that women are weak and fragile things that must have their rights restricted to protect them from the world will naturally lead to a draft that only includes males, women being evacuated from boats first. Beliefs that women are baby machines, getting most girls to play with baby dolls and shaming childless women will lead to women winning custody more often. They're two sides of the same patriarchal coin. Men can benefit from feminism, it's just that the effects of patriarchy predominantly hurt women.

Girl toys are mostly dolls because that's what most girls like; most boy toys are action figures and vehicles because that's what most boys like. It's a biological difference between us, and that's perfectly fine. It's also the root of why women tend to choose different professions than men, have different priorities in life, and thus earn less money as a result when taken as a group. It's not sexism; it's simply people making different choices.

Colour me entirely skeptical of the notion it all comes down to "biotruths". At most biology results in slight average preferences and culture does most of the work.

Or are you going to say you would not have felt shame or at least embarrassment picking something up from the pink girls asile when you were 5-8 years old? That it was only lack of interest?

To call it sexism is to smear men and vilify them as oppressors, when they aren't. Hell, that's not even taking into account the fact that feminists are hyperfocused on how elite men tend to perform elite women, while paying no attention to the other end of the scale (when was the last time you heard feminists crying out for more female plumbers and sanitation workers?), or how they get fucked over by the system.

Well that's because those elite professions (eg scientist, engineer, politician) have the most influence on society and how it moves and changes in the future. Who gets into the history books, who builds the future, etc.

Though if anything that would be an argument that feminists should pay more attention to female plumbers, etc - not that feminism should be abandoned.

But then, this is the Eclipse Phase thread, not the argue about feminism thread. Maybe we should move this particular discussion to a thread in NSFW?

If you want to, sure move the next post of yours there instead in a new thread with a quote of mine so I'm aware of it.

Of course this will probably attract more attention to your views and I suspect it will not be generally positive attention.
 
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