Dreadnought or Mothership

Which super ship do you have built?


  • Total voters
    35

Zor

More of a Zor than You
In this scenario you are the admiralty of an interstellar nation of three hundred inhabited star systems about 300 light years in diameter and populated by about one trillion sapient beings. Said nation is one of several such entities in your corner of the galaxy and while you have two allies of similar size neighboring you, you also have three hostile states. Said hostile states have been planning for some time the conquest and subjugation of your nation, either piece by piece or to split it in it's entirety between them. It is believed that in the next five to ten years there will be a major interstellar war.

Here is a rough outline of military spacecraft.

  • Fighters: 15-30 meters long with crews of one or two personnel. Fast (having five times the forward acceleration of a battleship), cheap and maneuverable short range craft useful for raiding, harassment, scouting and attacking targets en-mass. Can operate for either a day or up to 36 hours.
  • Gunships: 30-60 meters long with crews of 10 to 30. Heavier strike craft with lower acceleration but carrying heavier weapons payloads, armor, shields as well as a pair of Point Defense turrets. Can operate for up to a fortnight independently.
  • Corvettes: 125 to 225 meters long with crews of 40 to 80. Corvettes are the smallest warships which can mount and hyperdrive. Corvettes are used for scouting, raiding light targets, deep space patrols, point defense, escorting minor targets and couriers. Corvettes can operate independently for up to 4 months.
  • Frigates: 225 to 400 meters long with crews of 80 to 250. Frigates are the general workhorses of a fleet and broadly speaking come in two categories: the first are generalist assault frigates that are mainly used for engaging other frigates and smaller ships and the other are specialized frigates (torpedo frigates, lance frigates built around a single battleship scale energy weapon, interdictor frigates able to prevent any ship within 50 million kilometers from jumping to and force ships out of hyperspace, point defense frigates, shield frigates able to project a large forward shield) with maybe a few point defense weapons as a concession. Frigates have supplies for eight months on average.
  • Destroyers: 400 to 600 meters long with crews of 250 to 600. The smallest capital ships, primary function of a destroyer is to destroy enemy frigates, though they also act as raiders in groups. They are generally well rounded ships and are the largest warships most of your inhabited systems can build. They can operate independently for up to a year.
  • Cruisers: 600 to 1,000 meters long with crews of 600 to 1,500. Heavy hitters able to tackle with most threats head on at a reasonable price, there is a wide amount of variation in cruisers from fast light cruisers able to keep up with destroyers to heavily armored and shielded heavy cruisers with large numbers of destroyer level weaponry to engage fleets of smaller craft to battlecruisers which carry battleship level weapons. They can operate independently for between 1 to 1.5 years depending on their configuration.
  • Battleships: 1,000 to 1,600 meters long with crews of 1,500 to 4,000. Ships of the line and the heaviest hitters in the fleet. They are big, ponderous and expensive but when they are brought to bear they can both take and dish out tremendous power. Their main armaments are usually 6 to 12 heavy energy cannons mounted in heavy turrets which they can fire more rapidly than lance frigates along with torpedo tubes and point defense weapons as secondary armaments. Some battleships also have large spinal mounts to get in a single devastating opening shot, though their long recycle periods means that such weapons are often seen as impractical. Battleships have supplies for 2 years.
  • Carriers: A catch all term for ships between frigate scale support carriers and battleship sized fleet carriers that carry fighters and gunships. A fleet carrier can carry up to a thousand fighters or a hundred heavy gunships. At the same time many ships carry a complement of strike craft for support purposes. Some assault frigates can carry four fighters, a destroyer usually carries between eight and sixteen, cruisers carry between sixteen and forty eight while battleships can carry up to eighty six.

Both you, your allies and your enemies each command fleets with hundreds of battleships, about a thousand cruisers, thousands of destroyers and tens of thousands of Corvettes and Frigates as well as about a tenth that number in carriers. Most cargo ships are in the area of 200 to 800 meters long.

Weapons technology is as such…

  • Torpedoes: missiles ranging from counter missiles to 50 meter long heavy torpedoes. Torpedoes are used for long range combat up to five million kilometers away. They can do a lot of damage on impact but can be intercepted by PD and require a lot of ammunition.
  • Particle Cannons: Particle cannons are the main weapon of battle and range from fighter scale weapons to battleship lances. These have ranges from 30,000 to 500,000 km for heavy weapons.
  • Plasma Cannons: Short ranged weapons (125,000 km maximum) that do a lot of damage. They are generally seen as specialist weapons but a plasma weapon armed destroyer can dish out about twice the damage of its particle cannon armed counterpart when in effective range.

As a general rule inhabited planets have defensive shield grids and fortresses in high orbit. Indiscriminate use of weapons of mass destruction is avoided and if it is done, it generally has major consequences: most notably the fact that it ends in the side which does it getting dogpiled. If a planet's shield is battered down, the planet surrenders.

FTL travel is achieved through Hyperdrive. Hyperdrive allows ships to make jumps of up to a light year travelling at an effective speed of 300 to 600c for periods of about a day before needing to fall back to realspace to recharge and cool down their hyperdrives which usually takes about a day. Civilian freighters can eliminate most of this deadtime by recharging their power cells and swapping out hot hyperdrives for cool ones at way stations. Due to the fact that hyperspace is inprecise in where ships fall out and it takes about half an hour to power up for a hyperspace jump, using hyperdrive for tactical manuvers in battle generally does not work. Spacecraft cannot safely enter or leave hyperspace too close to a gravity well (in the case of a star like Sol, a safe distance would be somewhere between the orbits of Uranus and Neptune). FTL communications exist, but are low range (about 1 ly) and has a low bit rate. A network of relay stations exist in your nation. FTL sensors exist, but they can only detect when a ship enters or leaves hyperspace with one ly and the approximate size of said ship.

However recently there has been a breakthrough in engine technology. Basically it allows a ship traveling through hyperspace to use only half the energy per kilogram as a regular ship. The only problem is that due to technical reasons this is only really viable if the ship is huge, about ten kilometers in length at least. As such two engineers have provided you with two designs for a super heavy spacecraft for your navy.

The first option is the Dreadnought: an ultra-heavy ten kilometer and (at its widest) 2 kilometer wide long battleship that is very heavily armed, armored and shielded. It would carry twenty four cannons on the scale of a battleship's lance as well as hundreds of regular battleship scale cannons, torpedo tubes and even more PD weapons. It would also carry some 1,536 fighters and 256 gunships. Simply put this Dreadnought would be able to engage entire fleets and win.

The second is the Mothership. The Mothership is even larger than the Dreadnought at twelve kilometers long and 3 kilometers wide but weighs less due to a greater amount of internal room. The Mothership has shields which are about half as strong as the Dreadnoughts as well as weapons comparable to a regular heavy battleship for defense. Her main asset is that inside her is a vast industrial complex which includes asteroid processing facilities, ore refineries, fabricators, assembly lines and assembly craft produce materiel for the fleet. This ranges from food and mechanical consumables through torpedoes, shield generators, armor, fighters and in numerous assembly births new ships up to the destroyer level (of which she can build five at a time taking three months to complete them along with twelve frigates every six weeks and twenty corvettes every three weeks). She can also has a fleet of hundreds of repair ships able to restore damaged ships back into fighting order. Long story short, having a Mothership along with a fleet on a military expedition would simplify logistics massively.

Either way it will take about five years to build either a Dreadnought or a Mothership and you only have the shipbuilding capacity to make one at a time.

Which do you choose?

Zor
 
Last edited:
The Mothership for me, as logistics wins wars more often then not.

Since with the ability to pretty much set up a mobile resupply and repair zone anywhere that would be good for entire fleets, I could make sure that any offensive push never has to worry about losing steam mid assault. Which means with some crafty planning and luck, a blitzkrieg opening attack could end things before they could even get a chance to really start here.
 
Last edited:
I slap my DARPA-equivalents in the face, then tell them to stop getting their ideas on spacecraft design from old movies and bad historical reasoning.

See also: this logic applied to aircraft.
 
I spend the same amount of resources on more battleships and carriers.

What does spending "half the amount of energy in hyperspace" mean, really? Does that mean the supership could go twice as fast as a normal sized ship? Go on journeys twice as long? Neither of those sound worth the cost.
 
Last edited:
Just build a hyperdrive attached to a 10km pole, and have the fleet attach to it and warp together. That way all of our ships can take advantage of this new capability.
 
What does spending "half the amount of energy in hyperspace" mean, really? Does that mean the supership could go twice as fast as a normal sized ship? Go on journeys twice as long? Neither of those sound worth the cost.
It means it can jump twice as far while having the same recovery time in real space as a regular ship. It's a considerable strategic speed advantage.

Zor
 
It means it can jump twice as far while having the same recovery time in real space as a regular ship. It's a considerable strategic speed advantage.

Zor

Dreadnought, then. Speedblitz enemy defenses and be gone before their major fleets can catch up. The idea is to create disarray that will allow my conventional forces to win.

Mothership needs to spend a long time in a given area to properly exploit its resources, which makes the speed advantage less useful.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, the Mothership concept could work just as well with conventional drives. No reason it couldn't have been built already, in fact.

Go with Dreadnought, wipe out their fleets. The rest of the fleet can mop up enemy outposts or serve as home defence forces (since the only advantage of multiple smaller craft over a single larger craft is that you can send them to different places).
 
Honestly, it depends on the Conflict. The Mothership becomes valuable if you're looking at a protracted war where you're either going to lose all of your systems or be conducting significant fighting somewhere far from home (IE: Invading another reality or something). It has all the resources needed to create ships and the like on the fly.

Outside of that narrow situation, though, it's not offering that much.
 
Both, we have two allies.

Unless we've all pooled together to make one ship? If not, Dreadnought and two Motherships.

Dreadnought is to smash the opening of war and draw forces from enemy towards your next target. Motherships are raiders, keeping their fleets supplied.




Mothership is less useful then it seems, unless this setting has high automation you still have to crew ships. And cart the new sailors to them. But supplying raiding fleets is still good.

How long would the war be projected to last without Supercaptials?
 
Yeah, the Mothership concept could work just as well with conventional drives.

More to the point, why even make it mobile in the first place? Your ability to produce ships isn't relevant on a tactically - or even strategically - useful timeframe. The advantage is that it 'simplifies logistics', but...couldn't you just have transport ships full of repair drones, missile replenishment, fuel, etc, transport those things to you from your forward bases? You can have dedicated manufacturing craft for building spare parts, missiles, etc, on site if need be, without necessarily needing to build a mobile shipyard - it's going to be faster to bring up a new destroyer from your shipyards (along with fresh munitions, crew, etc) than it is to build one on site, while under threat from enemy forces.


But really, that kind of critique misses the larger picture. This sort of set up is what I like to think of as 'ships first' worldbuilding, where we know, generally, the least important things about the setting for the purposes of grand strategy and overall analysis of the conflict. History? Politics? Government? Economics? Completely unmentioned, but absolutely vital to understanding how any conflict might play out (or why we might care). The size of the polity mentioned, which is important, but size alone says little. The technology that is mentioned includes only contextless tactical minutia - weapon ranges, and the technobabble that goes with them. Information that could be important, but isn't, because it lacks not only a strategic context, but any way of making sense in a tactical context. Weapon ranges are meaningless without some sense of, for example, how fast propulsion is.

Speaking of which, propulsion. A lot of this depends on propulsion, and it's totally unmentioned. For example, can you sustain 1 g acceleration for long periods of time? Higher acceleration? Doing back of the envelope here, going from the orbit of Uranus to Earth is gonna take about two weeks, assuming you want to stop at your destination and not speed by it. What that timeframe looks like matters, a lot, for strategic considerations. It also matters, quite a bit, what kind of fuel your propulsion uses. I mean, imagine trying to think about WWII without knowing that petroleum and internal combustion is a thing.

And if we look at your post, a full third of it is listing...ship types. A nice, size 1 to size 10 progression, each getting bigger with longer endurance; each 'size' has a wide variation of what they can do and what they might be equipped with (why group them by size then?), but no indication of why you might want something this size for this role, or even why that's a role you expect that needs to be filled. Starting by listing the ship types is completely backwards. It should be completely the other way around; from the history, economics, technology, and astrography comes a situation, from that situation comes strategic needs, from the combination of strategic needs and technological and economic capability comes tools to meet those needs.

The David Weber/Starfire approach to combat spacecraft needs to go die in a fire.

(The FTL section is mostly alright, though you could do with being less ambiguous about what it means for a jump to be 'imprecise'. The basic structure works, and it tells us some of what we need to know - like the jump ranges, the overall speed, and the relative speed to the size of the empire. Communication and detection also covered, which is a plus. The implications seems to be that it takes a long time to get anywhere, potentially opening the way for very attribution heavy warfare . Also missing is a clear answer to whether or not it's possible to intercept a fleet making hyperspace jumps inbetween hops.)
 
Honestly, it depends on the Conflict. The Mothership becomes valuable if you're looking at a protracted war where you're either going to lose all of your systems or be conducting significant fighting somewhere far from home (IE: Invading another reality or something). It has all the resources needed to create ships and the like on the fly.

Outside of that narrow situation, though, it's not offering that much.

Motherships are useful because they allow you to Not Lose if you're using them at all right. Motherships mean that the enemy can NEVER be sure they've beaten you, because there could always be that Mothership hanging out in the void. Thus, the calculus is now weighted against attacking your nation from then on out.
 
Motherships are useful because they allow you to Not Lose if you're using them at all right. Motherships mean that the enemy can NEVER be sure they've beaten you, because there could always be that Mothership hanging out in the void. Thus, the calculus is now weighted against attacking your nation from then on out.

Presumably if they can track down your planets and scour you from the universe they'd be able to track down your Mothership as well.
 
Presumably if they can track down your planets and scour you from the universe they'd be able to track down your Mothership as well.
Actually, I doubt that. The Mothership could do a creditable Battlestar Galactica impression. It's faster than any enemy vessels, making it impossible for them to catch up unless it stops, by which point it may be a long way away in an unknown direction. On the other hand, it's restricted to building destroyers at most, so even if the enemy can't be sure they've defeated you... you can only create fleets for, effectively, harassment. As soon as it turns around to attack, it's gone Battlestar Pegasus. That's a losing proposition.
 
More to the point, why even make it mobile in the first place? Your ability to produce ships isn't relevant on a tactically - or even strategically - useful timeframe. The advantage is that it 'simplifies logistics', but...couldn't you just have transport ships full of repair drones, missile replenishment, fuel, etc, transport those things to you from your forward bases? You can have dedicated manufacturing craft for building spare parts, missiles, etc, on site if need be, without necessarily needing to build a mobile shipyard - it's going to be faster to bring up a new destroyer from your shipyards (along with fresh munitions, crew, etc) than it is to build one on site, while under threat from enemy forces.
Because...
  1. It takes time to deliver supplies from your systems to the frontlines.
  2. Said convoys would be a prime target for attack. One thing that the enemy would do if you go on the offensive is to try to sneak a squadron of frigates (possibly with a freighter for resupply) or a light cruiser behind your lines to raid your convoys in attempt to stop your advance.
  3. Even if they can at least slow it down and force you to commit ships to intercept them and escort your convoys.
  4. Most freighters are slower than warships at FTL speeds.
Having a mothership means that a fleet far from home is able to better keep up its strength and lessens the requirements. Moreover it would be in a position to produce more topedoes or shield generators and have them on hand if there is a pressing need for said things without waiting months for it to arrive from the main shipyards. It can also be useful in setting up support bases along the way.
Speaking of which, propulsion. A lot of this depends on propulsion, and it's totally unmentioned. For example, can you sustain 1 g acceleration for long periods of time? Higher acceleration
Torpedoes and fighters have an maximum acceleration of 40g, gunships have a top of 30g, covettes and destroyers have a top acceleration of 20g, for destroyers and cruisers its usually between 18 to 12g and battleships have a top acceleration of 8g. Both superships can match a Battleship at STL speeds. Drive systems are gravitic.

Also missing is a clear answer to whether or not it's possible to intercept a fleet making hyperspace jumps inbetween hops.
Yes, interdiction fields can force ships out of hyperspace and make them do an emergency transition back to realspace.

Zor
 
Dreadnought, then. Speedblitz enemy defenses and be gone before their major fleets can catch up. The idea is to create disarray that will allow my conventional forces to win.

Mothership needs to spend a long time in a given area to properly exploit its resources, which makes the speed advantage less useful.

This. Use the dreadnought to blast a hole through enemy defences and devour them piecemeal, jumping from system to system to dunk on bases, shipyards and the like ahead of what their forces can possibly keep up with. All the conventional fleets need to do is hold the line while the dreadnought runs rampant through one of the three opposing nations, significantly weakening them and tilting the balance in our favor.

The dreadnought's speed combined with its ability to engage entire battlegroups gives it a fearsome capability to bully and harass smaller fleets and relatively soft targets, especially with its red paint job which gives it 3x the acceleration and manoeuvrability of a standard dreadnought.

While the dreadnought kicks the living shit out of enemy forces we can make a mothership so that by the time its finished and the war is tilted heavily in our favor, we can send it to support the front lines as a mobile command post and support for occupying forces to make holding conquered territory easier.
 
The design of fighting ships is always about compromises, but in general a bigger ship requires fewer compromises and can get more done -- it's just more expensive. In light of the fact that the dreadnought doesn't fail any obvious sniff tests (for example, comparative speed -- it's still as fast as a battleship), it feels as if it's a much better investment, whether as a flagship of a conventional fleet or as a lone deep-striking raider. Dreadnought revolution FTW.

The mothership seems of dubious value. Some sort of catch-all hybrid logistics/construction/fighting ship seems like it would just suck at everything. If having such a ship along is useful because of strategic supply considerations, why aren't we already creating battleship-sized (or bigger, whatever the size limit on a conventional hyperdrive is) logistical ships to accompany the fleet? What is the purpose of having a mobile construction yard -- but which can only build things up to destroyer size -- that's strategically fast? If it needs battleship escorts to actually fight an enemy fleet, then its speed advantage is neutralized.

Alternately, scrap both plans and, as @Gitaxian suggested, make a giant hyperdrive-capable framework from which you can hang the equivalent volume/mass of battleships as the Dreadnought. Now you've got a strategically fast battleship fleet with greater redundancy...
 
Also, torpedoes are like, the size of B-52s. Just what are the point of fighters?
 
Also, torpedoes are like, the size of B-52s. Just what are the point of fighters?
More pertinently, what's the 5 million km range about? That's a flight time of about an hour. A powered envelope of a day will take you from the orbit of Uranus to Earth, topping out around .2c, whereupon John's Law ensues.
 
I like how the longest range weapon is the FTL Interdictor, which can be mounted on a small, fast ship. Pair them with antifighter ships and leave enemy capital ships stranded in space for months at a time, unable to open or close the range.

Motherships are useful because they allow you to Not Lose if you're using them at all right. Motherships mean that the enemy can NEVER be sure they've beaten you, because there could always be that Mothership hanging out in the void. Thus, the calculus is now weighted against attacking your nation from then on out.
Can your motherships outproduce a country? If not, they can't avenge you and your plan is useless.

If they can, why can't I fit their magical cornucopia machines on an immobile shipyard to save money?
 
Last edited:
This looks like it is going to be a long and grinding war. I think I would go with the Mothership so as to better support my allies.
 
Back
Top