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Dragon Ball: After the End

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CaesriusPolybius said:
He may have started with a clean slate, but he's already done stuff in his life that effect that slate.

Namely, y'know, the whole "world-destroyer and seer-mind-rape" things?
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Yea people need to get in their head now, this isn't Piccolo Jr. who hasn't done anything beyond be antagonistic to our heroes because daddy Piccolo told him to be. This is like if Frieza was chained up after he was defeated on Namek and Goku decided to make him a pet.

He is not grateful that he was allowed to live in this state, and he doesn't understand it as a mercy. He thinks that he is being mocked by someone that was able to make themselves stronger than him and is considering every moment he lives like this to be a mockery against his very sense of self. He might eventually be able to come around, but until then he is going to try and hit back each and every chance he gets.

uju32 said:
Like Vegeta, say?
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And Vegeta needed to be broken down and have his entire sense of self destroyed and then be brought back from the dead to even start taking his first steps onto the road to redemption. And that was a very long road with a lot of corpses strewn about it.
 
dragonx99 said:
And Vegeta needed to be broken down and have his entire sense of self destroyed and then be brought back from the dead to even start taking his first steps onto the road to redemption. And that was a very long road with a lot of corpses strewn about it.
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In part because Vegeta was being worked on by one person: Goku. And his band of merrymen and women.
We're looking to expose Daz to the entirety of Saiyan society, and what humans we can vet, which puts exponentially more resources in play to exploit every angle, every weak chink we can get.

And to be honest, Goku wasn't exactly Naruto.
 
uju32 said:
People start with a clean slate.
And if he doesn't have a taste of what he's missing, he has no incentive to act well.

That's not how we treat children. Or puppies.
And children are the prototypical no sense of right and wrong specimen.
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It's not how we treat tabula rasa children from birth, you're right. If a person starts out as a blank slate, you give them some rewards and privileges, and take those away as punishments.

Dazarel is not a tabula rasa. He still has the mind of a planet-devouring behemoth. Not long ago he tried to murder us and devour our planet.

He is not a 'child' in the generic sense of 'we are raising a child.' He is not a 'dog' in the sense of 'we just got a puppy from our friend, let's raise him and train him!'

He is a 'child' in the sense of "this child was just sent to juvenile detention for trying to burn the neighbors' house down" and a 'dog' in the sense of "this dog just mauled the five year old from across the street."

As such, he needs a rather different disciplinary approach, because his slate is not blank or clean. He comes "pre-built" with intense hostility, a desire to do us harm, and absolutely no inhibitions about hurting people for personal satisfaction or sustenance. We must first condition him OUT OF that state, before we can condition him into a more favorable one.

Therefore, we give him a minimal, nonzero set of privileges (like "can move around instead of being locked in a cage, gets reasonably tasty food,") until he proves that he at least knows how to behave. Once he has behaved for long enough that we know he has comprehension of what "behave properly" even means, then we can start giving him more privileges on a provisional basis.

Dazarel has already started disrupting us and undermining us, in our very first interaction with chibi!Dazarel he was trying to take potshots into our conversation with Maya.

We do this all the time with children.
We start them at a base level of responsibility and trust. If they act well, they get the keys to the car, longer curfew times, no formal checkups on their homework or computer time. If they act badly, they lose car privileges, the computer gets moved to the living room, et cetera.
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That's because normal children start out as blank slates with (on average) normal human instincts to honor concepts like fairness and reciprocity. Children require training to bring these instincts out, but they almost always exist, and in the rare cases where a child is a complete sociopath/psychopath, it takes time to figure this out anyway, so there's no harm done in reducing privileges gradually as it becomes more clear what the problem is.

By contrast, we honestly don't know whether Dazarel has such concepts or whether we're going to have to teach them to him.

He's not a member of a species of social animals, for one thing...

Hell, the most successful prison rehabilitation schemes in the world are in Scandinavia, and they start out with a base level of privileges and the like, which are not taken away unless there is provable reason to do so. Anders Breivik, who massacred a bunch of kids, started with a TV and game console in his room, and that was considered normal.
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That's because in a Scandinavian prison, we don't have to worry about the inmates doing much actual harm. Dazarel has considerable potential to do harm by saying the wrong things to the wrong people, IF he knows certain things that he might well know, or IF he takes it into his head to be sufficiently disruptive.

Once the Sealing is fixed and the alien army is dealt with in such a way that we know what level of infohazards we have to worry about around any remaining aliens, we will have considerably less reason to worry about what Dazarel has to say. That time is later, not now.

Daz is not going to learn much very fast in isolation besides stewing in anger and resentment.
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Us saying "Kakara will personally vet all Dazarel's conversations" is not the same as saying "Dazarel will be isolated." The "Dazarel is isolated" option was 'head-dragon' and that already lost.

This is the "Dazarel gets limited interaction with the option on more once he's proven capable of earning some trust from us." He doesn't start with very much trust because he's not an innocent newborn child.
 
[X] [AFTER] Lay down some ground rules with Dazarel about what does and does not constitute proper behavior.

[X][CHIBI] He is to be refused all contact with people save on your sufferance. You're not going to refuse to give him any contact -- assuming solitary confinement even works on him like it does on saiyans or humans -- but you're going to personally vet each and every conversation he has.

I've changed my vote, as I'm inclined to follow @Simon_Jester's lead on this one - not only is he making a lot of sense with regards to how we rehabilitate someone who just tried to murder a planet, but this is also literally his area of expertise. Besides which, I doubt we'd have to spend an extra action on voting to loosen his restrictions in the future. This is already such a massive step down from where he was that further restrictions won't make him any more mad, whereas removing them later might feasibly engender goodwill.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
It's not how we treat tabula rasa children from birth, you're right. If a person starts out as a blank slate, you give them some rewards and privileges, and take those away as punishments.
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It's not how we treat adopted teenagers either.
And you literally have zero room to escalate beyond that.

We are trying to reform a possibly useful ally, not just imprison a threat.
Different approaches apply.
Simon_Jester said:
That's because in a Scandinavian prison, we don't have to worry about the inmates doing much actual harm. Dazarel has considerable potential to do harm by saying the wrong things to the wrong people, IF he knows certain things that he might well know, or IF he takes it into his head to be sufficiently disruptive.
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Such as what exactly?
That we're saiyan? That would get him killed; not even us, but he's aware of the Enemy, and it's antipathy for saiyan life, and he can't leave Garenhuld.
That there's aliens in space? Public knowledge. No evidence he knows of our plots.

Simon_Jester said:
Us saying "Kakara will personally vet all Dazarel's conversations" is not the same as saying "Dazarel will be isolated." The "Dazarel is isolated" option was 'head-dragon' and that already lost.
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The whole point of this, besides having a cute animal mascot, is to draw on the entirety of Saiyan society as a minimum.To spread the load.
Kakara personally approving everyone he sees cuts into that by a large percentage for minimal gain.
 
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uju32 said:
It's not how we treat adopted teenagers either.
And you literally have zero room to escalate beyond that.
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No, there's an easy way to escalate.

You escalate from "I approve your conversations with people" to "I have ceased to approve your conversations with people. Also, you are going in a cage for two hours because I have to go somewhere else and I obviously can't trust you without supervision."

See, us asserting our control over who Dazarel talks to is not the same as us preventing Dazarel from talking to anyone. That would be an entirely separate decision on our part that is not included in the CHIBI vote.

We are trying to reform a possibly useful ally, not just imprison a threat.
Different approaches apply.
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Juvenile detention centers are also trying to reform possibly useful members of society. That is the single greatest motivation for not simply throwing juvenile offenders in with the general prison population, or for that matter just throwing them into a hole in the ground.

Nevertheless, the juvenile offenders therein are restricted in who they can and cannot talk to (i.e. not with their gang friends from the old neighborhood, or with people they might try to intimidate or harass), and what they can and cannot do, and where they can and cannot go.

Such as what exactly?
That we're saiyan? That would get him killed; not even us, but he's aware of the Enemy, and it's antipathy for saiyan life, and he can't leave Garenhuld.
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Do you have any strong reason to believe that at present he values his chibi-fied life highly enough to care?

Or, Dazarel, perhaps he thinks the Enemy may be the only magician in the galaxy powerful enough to undo what has been done to him, and that if he delivers the Exiles to the Enemy on a silver platter, the Enemy may decide he owes Dazarel a favor and do exactly that.

Dazarel might think that's his best chance for ever getting de-chibified ever again.

Hell, he might even be right to think so, for all we know.

No evidence he knows of our plots.
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No evidence one way or the other, and until we can do a Mind Delve on him, I don't want to take chances.

The whole point of this, besides having a cute animal mascot, is to draw on the entirety of Saiyan society as a minimum.To spread the load.
Kakara personally approving everyone he sees cuts into that by a large percentage for minimal gain.
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Yes, in the short term it cuts that down.

It also gives us in the short term the ability to vet and evaluate him, while still spreading the burden somewhat, while reducing the risk of disastrous bad outcomes if he turns out to be both treacherous and competent at intrigue.

Reforming Dazarel was always, realistically, going to be a multi-year project. Let's not start out on Day 1 of the project as if the project is already half-accomplished and we can implicitly trust Dazarel until such time as he turns out to be capable of causing major social harm even in chibi form.
 
uju32 said:
It's not how we treat adopted teenagers either.
And you literally have zero room to escalate beyond that.

We are trying to reform a possibly useful ally, not just imprison a threat.
Different approaches apply.
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I feel it is if the very first thing this adopted teenager tries to do is attempt to hurt you like Dazreal did Kakara. Now I'm certain that he realized he couldn't actually hurt her in his current state even if he got lucky and hit an eye, but the fact that he was willing to try anyway should tell you just how strongly he wants to do her harm.
 
A compromise, maybe? Start with us vetting people, hire one of the three saiyan psycologists to check on Dazzarel then follow their recommendation?
 
[X][AFTER] Lay down some ground rules with Dazarel about what does and does not constitute proper behavior.

[X][CHIBI] He is to be refused all contact with people save on your sufferance. You're not going torefuse to give him any contact -- assuming solitary confinement even works on him like it does on saiyans or humans -- but you're going to personally vet each and every conversation he has.
 
Okay, so my thoughts are...
[AFTER] We need to update the PLANET on the event of PLANETARY-SIGNIFICANCE that just happened. We need to check in with our friends and family. We need to keep a hold on the dragon. We need to lay down ground rules. Good news is, all of these things are pretty much related. So grab our friends and family and pet dragon and get on the TV or something and make the dragon confess and dictate terms to him.
[CHIBI] We don't get to hide the dragon's existence from people. He wasn't going to just kill the saiyans, so it's not just our business. Dragon can see whoever he wants, human or saiyan. EXCEPT that he's going to be in jail for a while. Turning him into a chibi isn't even his jail sentence, that's just disarming his weapons. He's going to the slammer. We should probably lock him up wherever we put criminal saiyans, but humans can visit if they want.
But, since I'm a potato, I've surely forgotten something that makes my idea nonsensical. Again.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Um... you seem super angry. I'm not sure who, or how many people, are acting this way to you, but I think most of us aren't and don't share this view that people are angry about.

You have the air about you of one who is digging in for a heroic last stand, and I'm... a bit surprised to be told you're under that level of attack. I think you're preparing for a last-ditch defense of your ability to like Yammar's snark, at a time when no one wants to take that right away from you or as such tell you you must be crazystupid for exercising that right.
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It's not necessarily all that many people, but rather the simple fact that literally every time I have said a positive thing about Yammar, somebody within minutes had jumped on how Yammar is Mega Ultra Hyper Plus Satan, and so I am somehow in the wrong for saying anything that is not 'Yammar is so evil dudes'.

That this continues now that we have Dazarel around, and yet is not being applied to positive words about Dazarel, shows that I am, in effect, getting bullied for a minority opinion, rather than because Yammar is actually objectively that bad. He has not been eating planets.
 
Bakkasama said:
A compromise, maybe? Start with us vetting people, hire one of the three saiyan psycologists to check on Dazzarel then follow their recommendation?
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That's fine by me, but it still starts with "for now, I vet all your conversations." We still vote for the most restrictive CHIBI option, the entire point of which is that we get to decide what to do with Dazarel later, at a future time when we are not up to our eyeballs in busy.

Terrabrand said:
It's not necessarily all that many people, but rather the simple fact that literally every time I have said a positive thing about Yammar, somebody within minutes had jumped on how Yammar is Mega Ultra Hyper Plus Satan, and so I am somehow in the wrong for saying anything that is not 'Yammar is so evil dudes'.
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In this particular instance, the person who 'jumped on you' was, in fact, saying "Yammar did this thing," a thing which he had in fact done.

There was one and only one such post. It was polite in its tone, stuck to the facts, and did not insult you in any direct OR obvious indirect way, except for its very existence.

You then replied with "Knock that shit off" and a demand that he "stop acting like [you're] fucking wrong."

If, when you bring the subject of Yammar up, the bare existence of anyone who says bad things about Yammar* is enough to trigger your anger that hard, I'm... ah, not sure that such a situation constitutes you being bullied by a bunch of thought police.

*(and not even matters of opinion, but factual statements about his past actions)

That this continues now that we have Dazarel around, and yet is not being applied to positive words about Dazarel, shows that I am, in effect, getting bullied for a minority opinion, rather than because Yammar is actually objectively that bad. He has not been eating planets.
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"Dazarel is likeable" is a minority opinion too, Terrabrand.

Now "tiny chibi Dazarel who hates us but is powerless to do anything about it is hilarious" is probably a majority opinion, but that is a rather diferent kettle of fish.
 
rkyeun said:
"Frieza did nothing wrong."
[!!!] STOP > This is unacceptable.
You have been banned.
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> [Dragonmyfeet] Your account has been reinstated
[Dragonmyfeet] "The whole world is ruled by monkeys. Soft, unwashed stupid monkeys."
> Your account has been banned
[Anonymous] "But why? All our leaders are dumb, if all the wars and threat of nuclear annihilation are anything to go by. I thought his post was fairly accurate."

Dazarel: "Hehehehehe."
 
Simon_Jester said:
That's fine by me, but it still starts with "for now, I vet all your conversations." We still vote for the most restrictive CHIBI option, the entire point of which is that we get to decide what to do with Dazarel later, at a future time when we are not up to our eyeballs in busy.

In this particular instance, the person who 'jumped on you' was, in fact, saying "Yammar did this thing," a thing which he had in fact done.

There was one and only one such post. It was polite in its tone, stuck to the facts, and did not insult you in any direct OR obvious indirect way, except for its very existence.

You then replied with "Knock that shit off" and a demand that he "stop acting like [you're] fucking wrong."

If, when you bring the subject of Yammar up, the bare existence of anyone who says bad things about Yammar* is enough to trigger your anger that hard, I'm... ah, not sure that such a situation constitutes you being bullied by a bunch of thought police.

*(and not even matters of opinion, but factual statements about his past actions)
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Regardless of how polite someone is and how much they stick to the facts, responding to someone saying they like a character with denigrations against that character, however factually correct they may be, is rude.
 
Simon_Jester said:
In this particular instance, the person who 'jumped on you' was, in fact, saying "Yammar did this thing," a thing which he had in fact done.

There was one and only one such post. It was polite in its tone, stuck to the facts, and did not insult you in any direct OR obvious indirect way, except for its very existence.

You then replied with "Knock that shit off" and a demand that he "stop acting like [you're] fucking wrong."

If, when you bring the subject of Yammar up, the bare existence of anyone who says bad things about Yammar* is enough to trigger your anger that hard, I'm... ah, not sure that such a situation constitutes you being bullied by a bunch of thought police.

*(and not even matters of opinion, but factual statements about his past actions)
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Thing is, they quoted me commenting very offhandedly that I'm liking Yammar. Not, say, trying to advance the idea we should befriend him or the like. Just a one sentence comment that I like him.

This required hammering home what an awful piece of shit he supposedly is, directly to me by quoting me.

Tylonius said:
He may be a somewhat chill old man around us, but he still tortured an entire House to death one at a time, forced his son to watch, and thereby caused the entire political mess the Exiles are embroiled in.
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Like, this is what he said, which both makes assumptions of why I'm liking Yammar, and serves no possible purpose other than to insult or devalue my taste.

Look, it's obvious if I started quoting literally everything complimentary said about Berra and went 'but the Sundering man' that I'd be being a disruptive ass, making it out to be bad that people like the character.

I have no issue with people having negative opinions of Yammar, but not matter how factually accurate the statements are, jumping on me saying positive thing about Yammar to assert that he is a horrid monster when the only thing you could be arguing against is me liking him, that is not cool.

I wasn't saying 'I'm liking Yammar, maybe we should spend social actions on him' or something where there'd be a reasonable motive of cutting off something they think is a bad idea.

I was just saying I like him in a very vague manner, and that requires bringing up the worst known traits of him.
 
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[X] [AFTER] Lay down some ground rules with Dazarel about what does and does not constitute proper behavior.
[X][CHIBI] He can be out in front of saiyans, and reveal himself only to humans you personally approve. Garenhulders are easy to convince about new things being old, but you don't want to have to en masse, and if the scouts pick up a TV broadcast where the insolent lizard showed his face, and broadcast it to the wrong person...
 
Alright, enough. I think this has had quite enough time in the sun.

Insofar as people are harping on Yammar's past actions, cut it out; the point that it needn't come up every time he's mentioned is a valid one.

Enough with the lengthy digression regarding the above. It, too, needn't be run quite so hard into the ground.
 
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