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DoofQuest- a Disney Villains Victorious CK2-Style Quest

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nwish425 said:
Her self-sabotageing habits are more than just some hindrance or way to stop her from being a major league threat. She's quite capable of being a dangerous enemy even with it, and when she messes up she leaves quite a lot of collateral damage in her wake. On both her side, and the one she's fighting.

I touched on it when I talked about why I personally despise her so much, but her self-sabotaging nature and refusal to acknowledge her own faults is something special, as much as she would hate it being said like this, it's real, it's human. It's something that people do in real life, something that everyone has seen or done themselves. It makes her more than just some generic ball of hate, it makes her a person, a horrible person, but a person nevertheless.

It's what makes her more than just some villain, because you can be a good villain without being a good character. She's a good and well written character, like almost all of the ones from Gargoyles, just one you're intended to hate. Take it away and you just have some grudge filled pile of spite and hatred, nothing about her would be compelling, nothing about her would be interesting, she would lose that spark that makes her who she is, and what makes her so easy and enjoyable to hate.

Without that hatred I wouldn't have reacted so vehemently, I wouldn't have been as invested in the entirety of the 12th night, and it all stems from her being self-sabotaging. Nothing she would have done would have elected as much of an emotional response, because there'd be no human connection. She'd just be some generic bad guy who wants to do bad things because she is bad. With it, she's a multifaceted character with clearly defined flaws and a reason why no one can get through to her, because acknowledging that she's in the wrong is to acknowledge that she has always been doing the wrong thing, that everything she sacrificed and went through was for nothing, and no matter how much it costs her and how much it hurts she can't do that.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but what I'm saying is as a quest, as a story, it shouldn't happen.
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Huh. I see your point. When I looked at it (mostly second-hand since I've only seen Season 1 of Gargoyles), I just saw a whiny child who didn't want to accept responsibility for her screw-ups, so she just piled them on everyone else. That kind of killed my enthusiasm for her as a villain, which triggered my desire for her to lose it so she could become a villain I could actually enjoy. But, now that I think about it, if she did lose that trait and acknowledge her mistakes, the only logical step from there would be a redemption arc, which totally defeats the whole point of making her a better villain. So, I'm still not a fan of what Demona is as a character and a villain, but it's better than nothing
 
nwish425 said:
With it, she's a multifaceted character with clearly defined flaws and a reason why no one can get through to her, because acknowledging that she's in the wrong is to acknowledge that she has always been doing the wrong thing, that everything she sacrificed and went through was for nothing, and no matter how much it costs her and how much it hurts she can't do that.
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That's not the case anymore. She's not in a world where every bad thing that ever happened was her own fault and the only way she could remain an antagonist was to make her completely incapable of introspection. She's in a crossover now, and she's working for Toffee. She has in Mewni a world that validates everything she thinks about humans, where they were given power and used it to oppress monsters when they weren't outright committing genocide, and it can't possibly be her fault because the timelines only merged after the backstories happened and time travel isn't allowed. She has room, now, to admit that she was wrong about some small things without that cascading to admitting she was wrong about the big thing.

Maybe she won't do that. Maybe she'll stay completely unchanged, like a racist fly in asshole amber. But this is still a game, with dice, where characters experience success if the dice roll high enough. She did that this very turn when looking for Toffee, so we know she's not working in some other system where her actions automatically fail and the GMs just use her spot in the rival reports to decide what she's failing at that turn. So could we please not act like her teaming up with Toffee isn't a bad thing?
 
Torgamous said:
That's not the case anymore. She's not in a world where every bad thing that ever happened was her own fault and the only way she could remain an antagonist was to make her completely incapable of introspection. She's in a crossover now, and she's working for Toffee. She has in Mewni a world that validates everything she thinks about humans, where they were given power and used it to oppress monsters when they weren't outright committing genocide, and it can't possibly be her fault because the timelines only merged after the backstories happened and time travel isn't allowed. She has room, now, to admit that she was wrong about some small things without that cascading to admitting she was wrong about the big thing.

Maybe she won't do that. Maybe she'll stay completely unchanged, like a racist fly in asshole amber. But this is still a game, with dice, where characters experience success if the dice roll high enough. She did that this very turn when looking for Toffee, so we know she's not working in some other system where her actions automatically fail and the GMs just use her spot in the rival reports to decide what she's failing at that turn. So could we please not act like her teaming up with Toffee isn't a bad thing?
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I'm. Not. Saying. It. Isn't.

I can't believe I actually did the whole putting a period after every word to emphasize thing but it's ridiculous at this point that you still think I'm saying that it's not a big deal.

I know it's bad, and I'm not saying oh she has to fail everything she does ever. I'm saying if they get rid of her own self-sabotaging core that it's not the same character anymore. That's all I was saying, don't put fucking words in my mouth.
 
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nwish425 said:
I'm. Not. Saying. It. Isn't.

I can't believe I actually did the whole putting a period after every word to emphasize thing but it's ridiculous at this point that you still think I'm saying that it's not a big deal.

I know it's bad, and I'm not saying oh she has to fail everything she does ever. I'm saying if they get rid of her own self-sabotaging core that it's not the same character anymore. That's all I was saying, don't put fucking words in my mouth.
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It's sort of like how Bill would be a lot more threatening if he actually... took anything seriously. He might well have won the game by now if he wasn't so inefficient from all the chaotic evil, but he wouldn't be Bill any more.
 
ilbgar123 said:
It's sort of like how Bill would be a lot more threatening if he actually... took anything seriously. He might well have won the game by now if he wasn't so inefficient from all the chaotic evil, but he wouldn't be Bill any more.
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Exactly, it's like people don't realize flaws are a major part of what makes a character who they are.
 
Torgamous said:
Toffee conquered a planet with Ludo as his proxy.
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Well see, that's the thing.

The irresistible farce meeting the immovable objective doesn't mean the farce is going to win.

It just doesn't mean the objective is going to win either.

Torgamous said:
"I will activate my Inator in three! Two! One and a half! One and one quarter! Perry the Platypus, why aren't you foiling me?"
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In all fairness that's about Doof's specific, individual relationship with Perry the Platypus.

That's great and all, but she did successfully steal three sacred artifacts and find an ally who's just as interested in human genocide as she is, so whatever the central core element of her character concept is here, she is capable of performing tasks such as finding Star.
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That is actually a very good and important point. Demona's not incompetent, in the general sense of "bad at the average thing she attempts to do on a minute by minute basis." She just has a very consistent habit of choosing poor strategies, or of losing sight of her strategy at the last minute and doing something spectacularly counterproductive.

Demona outsourcing the challenge of "be the brains of the outfit" to someone else, someone less likely to either fuck up the planning or lose sight of the unfucked planning and fuck it up at the last minute, probably is going to increase her effectiveness.
 
Simon_Jester said:
That is actually a very good and important point. Demona's not incompetent, in the general sense of "bad at the average thing she attempts to do on a minute by minute basis." She just has a very consistent habit of choosing poor strategies, or of losing sight of her strategy at the last minute and doing something spectacularly counterproductive.

Demona outsourcing the challenge of "be the brains of the outfit" to someone else, someone less likely to either fuck up the planning or lose sight of the unfucked planning and fuck it up at the last minute, probably is going to increase her effectiveness.
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I´d say that she is inherently *self-defeating* in contrast to Doof being *(somewhat) deliberately self-defeating*
 
Still if we talking about down sides Toffee isn't that good at keeping followers loyal. First two times when it shown that he can be beaten they all run. Third he had to take over Ludo's forces instead of build up his own. Then he left them all with the whole blow up the wand get into magic plan. Then he had to body jack to get someone to do things, then the last time all the mistreatment lead to Ludo killing him the first chance he got. Toffee isn't that great at other management styles other then fear of himself.
 
Honestly the more I think about it the less of a good team they seem to make, Toffee is exactly the kind of person that makes Demona especially backstab happy. The moment one is no longer useful to the other...
 
Ciber said:
Ah, but could he dodge a small moon at sufficient velocity? I for one would happily sacrifice one of the more boring states to take him out.
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A small moon slamming into the Earth would destroy the biosphere of the entire planet, not a single state.

Besides, Toffee would come back from that. His physical body doesn't matter any more, he inhabits the Mewnian Wellspring of Magic or whatever it was called.
 
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I mean did he defeat meteora? She has hax power against magic so she could maybe defeat toffee?. Or is she still stuck in the Saint Olga dimmension, or Earth?
 
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So if Toffee has Demona, then we need to grab Macbeth. He's basically the Moriarty to her Holmes. It's even mystically enforced. . .
 
I see Macbeth operating independently, though probably associated with Xanatos, kind of like Tom is for us. Ostemsily serving under us, but still doing his own thing. I don't beleive for a minute that Macbeth wouldn't ditch Xanatos if we gave him an opportunity to settle the score.
 
Macbeth-Inator
In a rare bought of forethought you decided to create a fail-safe for an encounter with this Demona lady... Just in case. The Macbeth-Inator can be assigned to a quest as equipment and used to instantly teleport Macbeth to the user's location, he'll love it you're sure! The Macbeth-Inator self-destructs afterwards.

Too-Many-Cooks-Inator
You don't quite get that saying, why would they all just make broth? Anyways, you've decided that too many people are doing the same thing, so you made this to fix that! On the next quest undertaken one random member of the selected team will be teleported back to DEI and be unable to take part.
 
nwish425 said:
Exactly, it's like people don't realize flaws are a major part of what makes a character who they are.
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TheLordofAwesome said:
I've noticed a lot of people don't understand that character flaws are essential when writing. Not just specifically here, but in general.
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While I do get And to an extent even agree to that Sentiment, I still kinda dislike the Idea that AS soon AS you try Bettering yourself AS a Charakter, you have essentially killed yourself And therefore stagnancy should BE the Name of the Game...Then again, I also sorry that Charakters have only their flaws keeping Thema from utterly steamrolling any Opposition (which they have to do because otherwise they are useless And Nobody Likes uselessness)

In the end its a real Catch 22 based around the "Ship of Theseus", I d say

And yes, AS an fanfiction author of at least above-average Skill (the exact Level of being a hotly-debated subject my self-loathing self And those of incredible Skill themselges around me considering me around equal to themselges) I do know what I am talking about Here.

Barondoctor said:
I volunteer Ohio. They have enough people who've been to the moon, why don't we bring the moon to them?
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Add to that that Ohio apparently is an ultra-conservative Hellhole And that Prospekt becomes very tempting.
 
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