Do we live in Flatland?

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Earth
Hello!

Manny people ask me and now i wonder if the Holographic Principle means the universe is 2 dimensional and perceptions of 3d are just an illusion created by our brains for sake of utility?

Well? Is the world nothing what it looks like to us, or is that not what the HP means? Or both?
 
The entire universe is probably an illusion. Math exists regardless of the state of the universe, and everything can be condensed down to math, so ultimately the universe itself probably doesn't even exist because it doesn't need to.
 
The entire universe is probably an illusion. Math exists regardless of the state of the universe, and everything can be condensed down to math, so ultimately the universe itself probably doesn't even exist because it doesn't need to.

That begs the question whats outside the simulation.
 
Hoplites. Outside everything is made of life sized hoplites combining into more complex compounds by sticking their stabby bits into each other.

Somehow the people of the Hoplite universe made a simulation much more finely grained than the outer reality.

The fact that Hoplites developed-in a sort- on their own within the sim was a surprise to the scientists who made the sim, a surprise whose significance is still pondered by their scientists, philosophers, and quacks to this day.

But of course everyone already knows this. Why did ylu even ask? Some kind of joke?
 
Probably an illusion? Erm, I don't know about that. Possibly an illusion definitely.
 
To put it quite bluntly, we're all just as real as the world we live in. It's not worth worrying about.
 
I tend to go the other way. You know how our three-dimensional universe is made up of infinite flat planes each of which is probably a universe of its own? I tend to assume there's a four-dimensional universe made up of infinite three-dimensional universes.

(For the purposes of this scenario I'm assuming time isn't a dimension).
 
Manny people ask me and now i wonder if the Holographic Principle means the universe is 2 dimensional and perceptions of 3d are just an illusion created by our brains for sake of utility?
As the video @Aperture lemon posted hopefully elaborated, it's not that are perceptions of 3d are illusion created by our brains. Rather, their more along the lines of an illusion created by the underlying physics -- the underlying physics behaves as though there is a third spacial dimension, even if that is artifact of something else.

Actually, I recall running across the idea that, if the Holographic Principle turns out to be correct, all that means is that "3d space" and "2d hologram" are equivalent descriptions of the same thing. "2d hologram" may have more explanatory power because it explains black hole entropy and may also explain gravity in terms of quantum physics, but "3d space" can still generally describe the behaviors of the things involved. However, I could be mis-remembering, or could have misunderstood, so I would be very grateful if the more knowledgeable posted could fact-check me on this.

You know how our three-dimensional universe is made up of infinite flat planes each of which is probably a universe of its own?
Say what now?

I tend to assume there's a four-dimensional universe made up of infinite three-dimensional universes.
I'm really curious about what the basis for that assumption is.
 
Hoplites. Outside everything is made of life sized hoplites combining into more complex compounds by sticking their stabby bits into each other.

Somehow the people of the Hoplite universe made a simulation much more finely grained than the outer reality.

The fact that Hoplites developed-in a sort- on their own within the sim was a surprise to the scientists who made the sim, a surprise whose significance is still pondered by their scientists, philosophers, and quacks to this day.

But of course everyone already knows this. Why did ylu even ask? Some kind of joke?

rather, it's made of birds
 
The entire universe is probably an illusion. Math exists regardless of the state of the universe, and everything can be condensed down to math, so ultimately the universe itself probably doesn't even exist because it doesn't need to.

Well, math would not exists. Things that math models would exists, but not math itself. Mathemathics are human construction in order to model complex, non-material things.

As for universe being illusion... I don't subscribe to that thought, because once you get down that path you can not make any sort of solid conclusion about anything.

Hello!

Manny people ask me and now i wonder if the Holographic Principle means the universe is 2 dimensional and perceptions of 3d are just an illusion created by our brains for sake of utility?

Well? Is the world nothing what it looks like to us, or is that not what the HP means? Or both?

Pretty sure we are living in 4 dimensional world with 3 dimensional perception of it. We can observe depth, length and width easily, but we can only observe current moment. Much like in Flatland, 2 dimensional people can observe the 3 dimensional sphere as a circle within their limited vision.

Of course, entire point in Flatland was not that there is one higher dimension, it is that there could be infinite number of dimensions that we simply can't perceive. When the square realizes that there is dimension below him (1 point) and above him (3 dimensions, where the sphere comes from), he proposes there is a dimension above that. Which angers the sphere because of course there can't be higher dimension, he is from the highest dimension... making him into same as square was at the start of the story.
 
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Well, math would not exists. Things that math models would exists, but not math itself. Mathemathics are human construction in order to model complex, non-material things.

As for universe being illusion... I don't subscribe to that thought, because once you get down that path you can not make any sort of solid conclusion about anything.

The universe doesn't care if we can make solid conclusions about anything, why would it?
 
A line is made of infinite points next to each other. A plane is made of infinite lines next to each other. A universe is made of infinite planes next to each other. Why wouldn't it just keep going like that?

From what I've heard, astrophysicists have fairly solid data that rules out any additional large scale dimensions that gravity can propagate in from the g-wave/EM combined observations of a neutron star merger. Here's the video I heard this from:

Here's the paper they cite: Limits on the number of spacetime dimensions from GW170817

Pretty sure we are living in 4 dimensional world with 3 dimensional perception of it. We can observe depth, length and width easily, but we can only observe current moment. Much like in Flatland, 2 dimensional people can observe the 3 dimensional sphere as a circle within their limited vision.

I think this is a pre-holographic principle interpretation of the universe, which isn't useful in understanding the holographic principle. AFAIK your statement about the nature of the universe isn't necessarily wrong though because the holographic principle is a mathematical theory, not an experimentally proven one. I'm not a physicist though.
 
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Doesn't really affect my theory as I have no reason to think gravity would propagate along the 'flatness' spectrum.

I think general relative says the curvature of space time (aka gravity) ought to propagate along all extended dimensions of space, but I'm not sure.

How would you go about detecting your proposed extra dimensions?
 
A line is made of infinite points next to each other. A plane is made of infinite lines next to each other. A universe is made of infinite planes next to each other. Why wouldn't it just keep going like that?
In abstract math, you can define a space with as many (or as few) dimensions as you need -- e.g., an n-dimensional vector is basically just a list of n real numbers. The tricky part is figuring out which abstract mathematical models represent accurate descriptions of the reality that we inhabit.

For example, Special and General Relativity both push for using a mathematical that uses 4-dimensional vectors containing a "time-like" entry (e.g., time, or energy) and three "space-like" entries (e.g., three spatial coordinates, or the magnitude of momentum in three different directions). Thus, we describe reality with models using 4-dimensional vectors because those models produce predictions that are a better match for our observations than any of the competing models.

With the holographic principle, the conjecture is that one of the spatial coordinates (radius in polar coordinates?) is somehow fundamentally different from the others -- e.g., that it represents a change in scale factor, rather than a change in "position." The holographic principle is motivated by the observation that the entropy of a black hole (and thus the maximum entropy of a region of space) is determined by its surface area, rather than its volume.

Conversely, although we can create models that use 4+ spatial dimensions (infinitely many 3-d spaces stacked together, or infinitely many 4-d hyperspaces stacked together, etc.), I'm not sure that there's any particular motivation to think that those models describe the reality that we inhabit.

Why wouldn't it just keep going like that?
Narrowing in on this point -- we know that something changes when you try to go past three dimensions. If you have, say, four pencils, you can arrange three of them so that each is perpendicular to the other. If you try to add the fourth pencil so that it is also perpendicular to all three other pencils, you run into a problem.

With Relativity, the resolution this issue that what you see of each of the pencils is a 3-d slice of an extremely long 4-d thread. Arranging the fourth pencil to point time-wards at all requires twisting the thread in such a way that means that the 3-d slice is moving through 3-d space. Arranging the fourth pencil to be perpendicular to the other three is equivalent to teleporting it.

Doesn't really affect my theory as I have no reason to think gravity would propagate along the 'flatness' spectrum.
Well, the effects of gravity aren't confined to a narrow beam emanating from its source, nor does it propagate out in a plane. Rather, it spreads out in every observable direction. If there were additional spatial dimensions, "Why wouldn't it just keep going like that?"
 
Narrowing in on this point -- we know that something changes when you try to go past three dimensions. If you have, say, four pencils, you can arrange three of them so that each is perpendicular to the other. If you try to add the fourth pencil so that it is also perpendicular to all three other pencils, you run into a problem.

Well, that's because we exist in three dimensions. If you asked two-dimensional people to add a third perpendicular pencil, they'd have no way of doing it either. The axis they'd need is outside their universe, just as the axis we'd need is outside of ours.
 
A line is made of infinite points next to each other. A plane is made of infinite lines next to each other. A universe is made of infinite planes next to each other. Why wouldn't it just keep going like that?
"Lines", "points", "spaces" and so forth are mathematical abstractions we invented to simplify our attempts to described the observable universe, and which we can generalize from due to the consistency of the underlying logic we came up with. But there is no reason to believe that because we can create a model for something, it must exist within the reality we inhabit. We can model all sorts of physical geometries that we know don't describe our space time, like the Godel Universe.

Also, our universe seems to have several "dimensions" that we can't physically access, but which allow extra degrees of freedom for extremely minute particles or strings (assuming M-theory is correct). If that is true, it suggests that any other spacial dimensions must be similarly compacitfied, or we'd be able to interact with them directly/

That's not to say "open" higher dimensions absolutely couldn't exist, or that other universes might not exist that possess them, but it seems improbable that they exist in our reality.
 
The universe doesn't care if we can make solid conclusions about anything, why would it?

Well, universe doesn't, but we do.

I think this is a pre-holographic principle interpretation of the universe, which isn't useful in understanding the holographic principle. AFAIK your statement about the nature of the universe isn't necessarily wrong though because the holographic principle is a mathematical theory, not an experimentally proven one. I'm not a physicist though.

And this is the problem I have with the "world is not real" ideas. You can not prove or disprove them in anyway, making them useless as a tool.
 
And this is the problem I have with the "world is not real" ideas. You can not prove or disprove them in anyway, making them useless as a tool.

Not yet experimentally validated != unfalsifiable. I don't know if the holographic principle can be tested but that doesn't mean you can just assume it's untestable.
 
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