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Detroit: Become Human

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At the bare minimum the tattoo is WTF worthy because she's obliviously taking David Cage's own clumsy, ignorant, borderline offensive symbolism appropriated from a horrific genocide and permanently inking it onto her skin to express her love for a video game character.

That's the absolute most charitable way I can render this. I'm glad this woman is still anonymous because I don't think she deserves to get dunked by ten thousand twitter trolls, but holy god damn this was not a decision that will age well.
 
Fernandel said:
And I'm not disputing this woman's right to get that tattoo at all. I do very much think it's in bad taste, and I appreciate the conversation that the tweet has stirred up. Because it's an important conversation to have.
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The only conversation this tweet has stirred up is the one we're having. It's otherwise just another call-out on that godforsaken wasteland of a website. When I said you shouldn't oversell it, I meant it. You're lost in an enormously overcomplicated analogy involving late stage capitalism, and it's just silly. At one point you used the word concerning twice in the same sentence. Dial it back a little.

Jace911 said:
At the bare minimum the tattoo is WTF worthy because she's obliviously taking David Cage's own clumsy, ignorant, borderline offensive symbolism appropriated from a horrific genocide and permanently inking it onto her skin to express her love for a video game character.
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She liked the video game, and she's the type of person who gets tattoos. Nothing about that is actually all that weird.
 
"We should have a conversation about this."
*five minutes later*
"no that's too much"

make up your fucking mind Ford
 
Fernandel said:
Maybe you can afford to actually engage with what I'm saying, instead of just dismissing it?
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Ford Prefect said:
The reason why she got her tattoo is, as you say yourself, that she liked the character on whose clothes it appears. In respect it's not really that different to the 2B ink that my housemate got done today. The thinking behind is exactly the same. The character appealed to her, she's the kind of person who gets ink - you can see she as another tattoo on her arm - this how she has decided to express her fandom. It has nothing to do with the aesthetic of the symbolism being presented positively. It's just an identifying feature that the character has, something that appears on his costume and, perhaps most importantly, it would be cheap.

This supposed power imbalance and the somewhat unclear concerning elements that come with it don't really factor in. Now, I don't think it's really outrageous to think a tattoo like this is in bad taste, mind you. Everyone's entitled to that opinion, but let's not oversell it. In the end, this is just some chick with a tattoo.

On the note of bad taste, I think that screen capping someone and subtweeting them to play to your ten thousand followers is kind of in bad taste, but maybe that's just me.
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Ford Prefect said:
This has nothing to do with giving the game a fair shake. Like you're all responding to the chick getting tweeted out by Alexis Moore, who is in tern clapping back against people who have the attitude of 'just let people enjoy this video game.' Let's not get it twisted.
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Ford Prefect said:
The reason why she got her tattoo is, as you say yourself, that she liked the character on whose clothes it appears. In respect it's not really that different to the 2B ink that my housemate got done today. The thinking behind is exactly the same. The character appealed to her, she's the kind of person who gets ink - you can see she as another tattoo on her arm - this how she has decided to express her fandom. It has nothing to do with the aesthetic of the symbolism being presented positively. It's just an identifying feature that the character has, something that appears on his costume and, perhaps most importantly, it would be cheap.

This supposed power imbalance and the somewhat unclear concerning elements that come with it don't really factor in. Now, I don't think it's really outrageous to think a tattoo like this is in bad taste, mind you. Everyone's entitled to that opinion, but let's not oversell it. In the end, this is just some chick with a tattoo.

On the note of bad taste, I think that screen capping someone and subtweeting them to play to your ten thousand followers is kind of in bad taste, but maybe that's just me.
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Why do you think all the symbolism in the game came out of a vacuum? Despite David Cage's insistence, it's an allegory for oppression and racism, among other things. However, because of his reputation with his writing and the like, it comes off as window dressing at best. At worst, it's like the worst take by hopefully someone who's not a racist and just out of touch. He kinda lacks conviction, to be honest.

Fernandel said:
Okay so thanks for reminding me that you just restated your opinion in response to my response to you

11/10 debating, would do again
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Ford sure seems to be going for gold in mental gymnastics. I'm not sure if I should be impressed or sad.
 
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I'm just surprised she didn't tattoo a bar code as well. That'll complete the set, methinks. You don't get a serial number without a bar code that's heresy.
 
Fernandel said:
Okay so thanks for reminding me that you just restated your opinion in response to my response to you

11/10 debating, would do again
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Fernandel, I have engaged with you. I read your posts, and I responded in good faith. I didn't, for example, take a single sentence out of one of your posts, present it free of all context, and take a shot at it. I quoted my earlier post to remind you that I have actually made an effort to speak with you, and that your attempt to characterise me as being 'unwilling to engage' is, at best, something of an exaggeration on your part.

Exaggeration is, incidentally and clear from my previous posts, my main issue with your position. Your argument is deeply convoluted, and relies on reasoning which would, without any stretching at all, make basically any expression of fandom suspect. That is in turn tied to the explicit suggestion that this twenty-something on Twitter getting a serial number tattooed on her wrist is very serious. Now it can be in bad taste. It could even just be a bad tattoo. But it's not nearly as serious, or concerning, or troubling as you're suggesting. It's maybe a little dumb, and probably classifies as ignorant. But in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't really attract the degree of concern that you're expressing.

Nord Ronnoc said:
Why do you think all the symbolism in the game came out of a vacuum?
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I realise you just want to dunk on me dude, but I was explaining what was (very likely) going through the head of the woman with the tattoo.

Marla said:
I'm just surprised she didn't tattoo a bar code as well. That'll complete the set, methinks. You don't get a serial number without a bar code that's heresy.
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Well, I mean, Connor doesn't have a barcode. :V

There was a big barcode tattoo fad between 2013-2015, which really reached its nadir with the McDonald's receipt tattoo that did the rounds in that period.
 
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Ford Prefect said:
Exaggeration is, incidentally and clear from my previous posts, my main issue with your position. Your argument is deeply convoluted, and relies on reasoning which would, without any stretching at all, make basically any expression of fandom suspect. That is in turn tied to the explicit suggestion that this twenty-something on Twitter getting a serial number tattooed on her wrist is very serious. Now it can be in bad taste. It could even just be a bad tattoo. But it's not nearly as serious, or concerning, or troubling as you're suggesting. It's maybe a little dumb, and probably classifies as ignorant. But in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't really attract the degree of concern that you're expressing.
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I actually think that it's in terribly bad taste, but I also think that it's an expression of something -- the way we consume media and symbols are presented in them, and how we incorporate them into our daily lives -- we need to think more carefully about. The two are not actually mutually exclusive.

I do think that somebody getting this tattoo is actually concerning. I'm not denying that woman's right to get this tattoo. But I wasn't trying to make an analogy in my explanation, I was explaining why I think that the use of fictional symbols based on real-life fictional symbols of terrible events and their appropriation by media consumers in real life without thinking critically about it is of concern to me, especially when said media is presented to us by corporations interested in getting us invested into spending money on their products and letting us into their lives.

Whether you find my position "convoluted" or "exaggerated" is really none of my concern. Surprisingly enough, these are complicated and strongly emotive topics. Declaring them to be "convoluted" or "exaggerated" skates around my points, but doesn't actually address them in any way.
 
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Ford Prefect said:
Fernandel, I have engaged with you. I read your posts, and I responded in good faith. I didn't, for example, take a single sentence out of one of your posts, present it free of all context, and take a shot at it. I quoted my earlier post to remind you that I have actually made an effort to speak with you, and that your attempt to characterise me as being 'unwilling to engage' is, at best, something of an exaggeration on your part.

Exaggeration is, incidentally and clear from my previous posts, my main issue with your position. Your argument is deeply convoluted, and relies on reasoning which would, without any stretching at all, make basically any expression of fandom suspect. That is in turn tied to the explicit suggestion that this twenty-something on Twitter getting a serial number tattooed on her wrist is very serious. Now it can be in bad taste. It could even just be a bad tattoo. But it's not nearly as serious, or concerning, or troubling as you're suggesting. It's maybe a little dumb, and probably classifies as ignorant. But in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't really attract the degree of concern that you're expressing.



I realise you just want to dunk on me dude, but I was explaining what was (very likely) going through the head of the woman with the tattoo.



Well, I mean, Connor doesn't have a barcode. :V

There was a big barcode tattoo fad between 2013-2015, which really reached its nadir with the McDonald's receipt tattoo that did the rounds in that period.
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Goddamn, this is like when a timeloop and a brick wall had a baby. And no, you didn't argue in good faith. You kept on repeating the same points, insist there's nothing there in the game, and called Fern's arguments exaggerated. Any chance of giving you the benefit of the doubt is unlikely.
 
Nord Ronnoc said:
Goddamn, this is like when a timeloop and a brick wall had a baby. And no, you didn't argue in good faith. You kept on repeating the same points, insist there's nothing there in the game, and called Fern's arguments exaggerated. Any chance of giving you the benefit of the doubt is unlikely.
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Fern doesn't need a cheerleader, dude. Let the man debate for himself.
 
Fernandel said:
I actually think that it's in terribly bad taste, but I also think that it's an expression of something -- the way we consume media and symbols are presented in them, and how we incorporate them into our daily lives -- we need to think more carefully about. The two are not actually mutually exclusive.

I do think that somebody getting this tattoo is actually concerning. I'm not denying that woman's right to get this tattoo. But I wasn't trying to make an analogy in my explanation, I was explaining why I think that the use of fictional symbols based on real-life fictional symbols of terrible events and their appropriation by media consumers in real life without thinking critically about it is of concern to me, especially when said media is presented to us by corporations interested in getting us invested into spending money on their products and letting us into their lives.

Whether you find my position "convoluted" or "exaggerated" is really none of my concern. Surprisingly enough, these are complicated and strongly emotive topics. Declaring them to be "convoluted" or "exaggerated" skates around my points, but doesn't actually address them in any way.
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Respectfully Fern, all I asked of you is that you bring it down a notch. Further, I actually did address your points, as I've aptly demonstrated. Please don't pretend otherwise.

Anyway, maybe we can explore this further. In your post here you say:

Fernandel said:
the use of fictional symbols based on real-life fictional symbols of terrible events and their appropriation by media consumers in real life without thinking critically about it is of concern to me
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You lead into your first big post with an introduction about your relationship with WWII as a German, expressing that you were deeply concerned with knowing about the history of the event. You also mention that this tattoo was problematic for you because it wasn't a symbol personal tragedy, but instead something that the person with the tattoo thought was cool. You didn't explicitly link these things, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but those two things are linked for you. My reading, then, is that the actual issue you have is that in getting this tattoo the woman demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of history. Am I wrong on that front?
 
Personally I think the whole allegory for racism in a crapsack world is kind of half-assed. I know why they did it, because in today's political climate, antagonizing either side will result in a whole bunch of sniping, trolling, and baiting. But if you're going to tackle a story that includes racism, make sure you think things through the whole way. Don't hold back because it makes people uncomfortable, that's the cowards way out of the hole you've dug for yourself. It's like censoring because people don't like being reminded about the atrocities that were committed but it's important to remember those events so that we don't repeat ourselves, so we don't make the same mistakes as before. Also you should make sure that the racism is rational to the people who are set in their ways, and irrational to the audience. Like, have people use religion(which has been done in the past) as an excuse, or maybe have the racism just ingrained into a family because it's what they've known for most of their lives.
 
You know . . . It really bugs me that no matter what you do, Hank ends up supporting the androids. Even if Markus embraces violence and is killing as many humans as he can get his hands on.
 
He does seem to always support android rights and view them as oppressed as a whole. As for why, who knows the details? IRL many people can't exactly pin the reasons for their beliefs on a single thing, or know themselves that well. I wonder what could make Hank's beliefs change because something probably could make it change, or go back, change back. Hank also doesn't know himself that well at times, and even things he seems sure of sometimes he seems to be lying, like saying he hates androids. I wonder if he actually thought he believed that, or was fooling himself.
 
Detroit: Become Human sales pass 2 million copies

Just randomly looking at its Wikipedia page and thought I'd post this since it's somewhat recent news. Looks like the game did well.
Then again, most of their games have.

If I ever own a PS4 again I might try this.

I'm curious about something, though. We were talking about violence in video games elsewhere which spun off from a talk about sexiness in video games. Some people are more squeamish about having bouncing boobs everywhere then playing, I dunno, Manhunt. Others meanwhile are more put off by violence. Me, I grew up on MK and GTA. I have no problem with faces being ripped off and heads popping and all that cartoony goodness. Even horror games never bothered me. No, the only video game where violence got to me was Heavy Rain. That finger trial is just...it's perfectly done in how much it makes me squirm and cringe.

Is there anything like that in Detroit?

P.S.
Somebody responded to me talking about HR's finger amputation by citing one of the Walking Dead games where you can saw off your arm....

P.S.S.
I'm glad in Beyond when your boyfriend gets his eye put out that this doesn't go very long. Considering it was an interrogation, I was terrified they would drag it out because...well, that makes good, sadistic sense. But the game didn't and I am grateful.
 
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Markala said:
These are all very good points I agree with; the canon Android Revolution could've waited and "spread Deviancy" to the military androids and had much more bargaining power possibly... At this point the entire timeline needs to be re-written to actually fit an Android Rights vs Cyberlife battles and dragged out for like a couple years or something, complete with Cyberpunk infowars and Androids fighting to get more supporters (seriously, it's like the Public Opinion mechanic doesn't even matter narratively, narrative dissonance, ugh).

At this point, I kinda feel like DBH is the kinda-start of something in the vein of Shadowrun? Not that far-fetched I think. (lol)
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Sort of a suspense/action thriller.

The human characters are the families and descendants of the leadership of the first megacorp to develop robots capable of entirely replacing human workers, living in a robotically maintained and defended Elysium-style gated compound. And, apparently at random, some of the robots have began going berserk. Malfunction? GIGO misinterpretation of orders? Easter egg code added by a disgruntled programmer before they got fired and replaced by software? Developing sentience and free will? Regardless, it isn't like they can be shut off or even disarmed since they're the only thing keeping the hordes of starving unemployed outsiders from turning into history's largest lynch mob and then their owners would have to work.

And the incidents are increasing in frequency.
 
Nikkolas said:
Detroit: Become Human - FREEDOM HAS A PRICE

What is this Epic Games Store? Is it like Steam or EA's Origin or GOG?

I never planned to buy another PS4 but maybe now I definitely won't.
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It's an equivalent to Steam run by Epic Games, the developer of Fortnite, the Unreal Engine and Gears of War. It's been quite controversial lately due to its aggressive pursuit of exclusives as well as a relative lack of features compared to Steam. There have also been allegations of spyware but I don't think they've amounted to anything malicious or even material. Overall, it honestly seems pretty fine and is probably worth a look if you're interested. Even if you're in a country whose currency isn't supported yet (If your listed location is correct that definitely won't be problem lol), it's probably still cheaper than buying a console.
 
CallMeIsmail said:
It's an equivalent to Steam run by Epic Games, the developer of Fortnite, the Unreal Engine and Gears of War. It's been quite controversial lately due to its aggressive pursuit of exclusives as well as a relative lack of features compared to Steam. There have also been allegations of spyware but I don't think they've amounted to anything malicious or even material. Overall, it honestly seems pretty fine and is probably worth a look if you're interested. Even if you're in a country whose currency isn't supported yet (If your listed location is correct that definitely won't be problem lol), it's probably still cheaper than buying a console.
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Oh wow, so it's not some shady outfit. All the shit I heard made me wary but they make the Unreal Engine? What's all the complaints about?

Also I missed the fact Heavy Rain and Beyond: Two Souls are also coming to EG. I am hyped. Never getting another PS3 or PS4.
 
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