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Detroit: Become Human

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So just out of curiosity . . . Have any LPers actually had Connor refuse to go deviant during their playthroughs? Not talking some multi-run let's see all the options kind of playthrough either. Or them not being deviant enough to make the deviancy stick. Just full on, the option was there and they decided to put a stop to the revolution anyways.
 
I don't see what the issue is with getting Connor's model number as a tattoo. It's not, like, actually more identifying than any other tattoo, particularly given that it's on the inner arm.
 
Ford Prefect said:
I don't see what the issue is with getting Connor's model number as a tattoo. It's not, like, actually more identifying than any other tattoo, particularly given that it's on the inner arm.
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Serial Number Identification in a story about a subservient minority and "deconstruction" camps being a prominent part of it i think is the point. kind of pointing out the Chattel Slavery and Holocaust Analogues makes such a mark weird.

I think the point ignores context and nuance, but that is just me.
 
Simmr001 said:
Serial Number Identification in a story about a subservient minority and "deconstruction" camps being a prominent part of it i think is the point. kind of pointing out the Chattel Slavery and Holocaust Analogues makes such a mark weird.

I think the point ignores context and nuance, but that is just me.
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Well the ship has sailed on getting a string of numbers as a tattoo so like getting on someone's case because they liked the robot puppy seems to be kind of mistimed tbh
 
Ford Prefect said:
Well the ship has sailed on getting a string of numbers as a tattoo so like getting on someone's case because they liked the robot puppy seems to be kind of mistimed tbh
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man I get wanting to give the game a fair shake and all but "uwu holocaust symbolism" is so far over the what the fuck line that we have to adjust time zones.
 
Jace911 said:
man I get wanting to give the game a fair shake and all but "uwu holocaust symbolism" is so far over the what the fuck line that we have to adjust time zones.
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This has nothing to do with giving the game a fair shake. Like you're all responding to the chick getting tweeted out by Alexis Moore, who is in tern clapping back against people who have the attitude of 'just let people enjoy this video game.' Let's not get it twisted.
 
Ford Prefect said:
This has nothing to do with giving the game a fair shake. Like you're all responding to the chick getting tweeted out by Alexis Moore, who is in tern clapping back against people who have the attitude of 'just let people enjoy this video game.' Let's not get it twisted.
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what??

the decision to get a robot holocaust mistake tattoo does not exist in a vacuum, they literally squee over Connor in the image.
 
Jace911 said:
what??

the decision to get a robot holocaust mistake tattoo does not exist in a vacuum, they literally squee over Connor in the image.
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You're right, it exists in the specific context of fandom - enjoying the character enough that you want to have an identifying characteristic of that character as a tattoo.
 
Ford Prefect said:
You're right, it exists in the specific context of fandom - enjoying the character enough that you want to have an identifying characteristic of that character as a tattoo.
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Well gee, when you belt sand all of the relevant context away it is hard to see why someone getting a tattoo symbolizing one of history's worst atrocities because they have goo goo eyes at a fictional jew robot is questionable at all.
 
Jace911 said:
Well gee, when you belt sand all of the relevant context away it is hard to see why someone getting a tattoo symbolizing one of history's worst atrocities because they have goo goo eyes at a fictional jew robot is questionable at all.
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Do you think it's outrageous to cosplay as Connor?

e: like help me understand your logic here, because otherwise we're just participating in a Twitter call-out thread against some chick, but at arm's length? That strikes me as a little weird. It doesn't you, so maybe we can talk it through.
 
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Fernandel said:
Do you think cosplay is even remotely as permanent as a tattoo?
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Yeah, I do, I'm actually a fucking moron.

Instead of this pithy hot take shit why don't we take the opportunity to use this discussion forum to actually discuss a topic. This woman's tattoo is obviously of some concern to people, or at least apparently grounds for mockery, and I honestly think that's kind of weird. Also maybe it's actually the game's fault. The logic is unclear to me and I would like to make it clear. Will any permanent or semi-permanent expression of fandom for the androids in Detroit pose an issue? If cosplay is an inappropriate example, what about hanging a poster or fanart in your house? If this is an issue, what about all the various links or images we've shared making light of the game? Is that an issue? If not, why not?
 
Ford Prefect said:
Yeah, I do, I'm actually a fucking moron.

Instead of this pithy hot take shit why don't we take the opportunity to use this discussion forum to actually discuss a topic. This woman's tattoo is obviously of some concern to people, or at least apparently grounds for mockery, and I honestly think that's kind of weird. Also maybe it's actually the game's fault. The logic is unclear to me and I would like to make it clear. Will any permanent or semi-permanent expression of fandom for the androids in Detroit pose an issue? If cosplay is an inappropriate example, what about hanging a poster or fanart in your house? If this is an issue, what about all the various links or images we've shared making light of the game? Is that an issue? If not, why not?
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Okay, so I'll explain myself a bit here.

Nearly everybody is probably aware of my heritage here. I'm German, and it comes with a lot of cultural baggage. I've been educated in the history and symbols of Nazism and fascism from a very young age, I've lived in parts of Germany that used to be on each side of the Iron Curtain and have studied the varied historiography of Nazi Germany for a long time, and I'm also a voracious reader with a massive interest in the history of the Third Reich and its atrocities. My shelf has over more than two dozen books written by all kinds of people on the atrocities committed by my people, and I'm very conscious of the symbolism that was used by the Nazis being used in fiction today.

The serial identification tattoo is one of those symbols. It was used originally as a tool in order to identify people in concentration camps even when they were striped naked, and it was also deliberately intended to be incredibly dehumanizing with no regard for people's pain, being either done with a literally tattooing stamp that caused wounds in the shape of numbers that ink was rubbed into and later done with a single-needle device (think a sewing machine, IIRC). The process was painful, dehumanizing, and unavoidable for those sent to the camps.

These tattoos have become a symbol of incredible pain and suffering, and even as Holocaust survivors have used them to become symbols of survival and remembrance of these atrocities, they are still very much something intensely personal and tragic. And after the Nazis were defeated and the horrors of the camps became known, it has become a symbol that has been used in popular fiction as a shorthand for villainy and tragedy.

Here's where it starts being problematic for me: the part where these symbols aren't a sign of personal tragedy anymore, but become a sign of "coolness" pushed by corporations.

The androids having serial identification numbers in D:BH is not something I have an issue with, per se -- it's a common piece of symbolism in popular fiction and a good shorthand to show that something like a human is not being treated like a human, becoming dehumanized by being assigned a number and label. It's a strong message and can be used well to show that treating people like this is wrong. The problem I have is when that symbol is then copied from a fictional story onto an actual human being's skin, and I get even more concerned when it's a number used in a story designed by a big corporation that wants to sell us their stuff, even if they're creating art to do so. It appropriates a fictional adaptation of a dehumanizing symbol and brands it into a living human's skin.

Now, I don't think that this symbol was chosen completely thoughtlessly by this young woman. I'm sure Connor's story had a deep resonance with her feelings, otherwise she wouldn't have chosen that tattoo. However, it needs to be remembered that the serial identification number given to each robot and branded onto the skin is meant to be dehumanizing. It is meant to show that these people are not considered human. And even when it was used as a symbol of survival and remembrance, it wasn't reclaimed as a positive symbol.

To choose to put a serial number onto your own skin is already troubling enough, but to copy it from a piece of media pushed by a very large corporation and publisher is concerning, because it makes me think that people may not actually be aware of the history of these sort of brands and numbers and what they were intended for in real life. I doubt she was being actively disrespectful or intended any harm at all, but that she felt that this tattoo was appropriate is still kinda concerning, and there's also the concerning possibility that the narrative may have pushed the aesthetic of this originally very tragic symbolism as a positive thing. A very significant power imbalance between the creator and consumer of media can exist, and I think creators should always think about whether they might be selling symbolism and ideas as a positive when they didn't really intend to.

I'd be less harsh on her if she'd picked a "serial number" that had some greater personal symbolism for her, though I'd still criticize it. The fact that she flat-out copied Connor's serial number and stitched it to her skin is concerning as hell, both from the standpoint that it uses symbolism explicitly meant to be dehumanizing and because it's a symbol that was designed and sold to people by a very large media studio and publisher.

Our use of fictional symbols based on symbols meant to be dehumanizing in popular media created to make a profit and our appropriation and use of it in our personal lives should be studied very critically, and I don't think there was a lot of critical thinking here.
 
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Fernandel said:
To choose to put a serial number onto your own skin is already troubling enough, but to copy it from a piece of media pushed by a very large corporation and publisher is concerning, because it makes me think that people may not actually be aware of the history of these sort of brands and numbers and what they were intended for in real life. I doubt she was being actively disrespectful or intended any harm at all, but that she felt that this tattoo was appropriate is still kinda concerning, and there's also the concerning possibility that the narrative may have pushed the aesthetic of this originally very tragic symbolism as a positive thing. A very significant power imbalance between the creator and consumer of media can exist, and I think creators should always think about whether they might be selling symbolism and ideas as a positive when they didn't really intend to.

I'd be less harsh on her if she'd picked a "serial number" that had some greater personal symbolism for her, though I'd still criticize it. The fact that she flat-out copied Connor's serial number and stitched it to her skin is concerning as hell, both from the standpoint that it uses symbolism explicitly meant to be dehumanizing and because it's a symbol that was designed and sold to people by a very large media studio and publisher.
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The reason why she got her tattoo is, as you say yourself, that she liked the character on whose clothes it appears. In respect it's not really that different to the 2B ink that my housemate got done today. The thinking behind is exactly the same. The character appealed to her, she's the kind of person who gets ink - you can see she as another tattoo on her arm - this how she has decided to express her fandom. It has nothing to do with the aesthetic of the symbolism being presented positively. It's just an identifying feature that the character has, something that appears on his costume and, perhaps most importantly, it would be cheap.

This supposed power imbalance and the somewhat unclear concerning elements that come with it don't really factor in. Now, I don't think it's really outrageous to think a tattoo like this is in bad taste, mind you. Everyone's entitled to that opinion, but let's not oversell it. In the end, this is just some chick with a tattoo.

On the note of bad taste, I think that screen capping someone and subtweeting them to play to your ten thousand followers is kind of in bad taste, but maybe that's just me.
 
Symbols mean shit.

This is barely any different than straight up getting a swastika because you thought it looked cool and somehow never learned the connotations.

That's aside from even the complete disrespect of just thoughtlessly adopting something very closely associated with both personal tragedy and unimaginably widespread atrocity. And while it's not a direct one to one with camp tattoos it's only a half step removed. It's a symbol meant to represent the exact same thing its invoking in life. It is immensely disrespectful of real suffering.
 
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Ford Prefect said:
It has nothing to do with the aesthetic of the symbolism being presented positively. It's just an identifying feature that the character has, something that appears on his costume and, perhaps most importantly, it would be cheap.
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No, it's probably not intended to present the symbolism used as something positive. However, and this is important, it's still a symbol chosen by the creator of the piece of media because of its connection to terrible real-life events for its symbolism, and there's something to be said that we need to be careful about using that symbolism in our personal lives. After all, this is a big media creator and publisher attemtping to manipulate its audience into liking the piece of media enough to keep playing and recommending it, and perhaps spend money on merch.

It's not "just an identifying feature" the character has.
Ford Prefect said:
This supposed power imbalance and the somewhat unclear concerning elements that come with it don't really factor in. Now, I don't think it's really outrageous to think a tattoo like this is in bad taste, mind you. Everyone's entitled to that opinion, but let's not oversell it. In the end, this is just some chick with a tattoo.

On the note of bad taste, I think that screen capping someone and subtweeting them to play to your ten thousand followers is kind of in bad taste, but maybe that's just me.
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I think there's a real concern with the fact that we are sold symbolism by large corporations that create media and that many people appropriate it very strongly for themselves, and I don't think that we shouldn't examine the relationship between the creator of media and its consumers when they use symbolism not just to tell a story, but also to sell us stuff. It's exactly what the tweet explains:
i need literally every single person who's told me to just let people enjoy things in reference to DBH to think very seriously about this person who didn't see the issue with getting a serial number identification tattooed on their forearm
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The issues here are that it's originally dehumanizing symbolism, even if it's fictional; that it was a symbol created by a corporation in order to sell us their stuff; and it's important to consider how we consume media and the symbolism and themes it contains, including the real life events that have inspired these themes and symbolism, and whether and how we incorporate them into our lives.

And I'm not disputing this woman's right to get that tattoo at all. I do very much think it's in bad taste, and I appreciate the conversation that the tweet has stirred up. Because it's an important conversation to have.
 
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