Jace911
Spider-Dork
- Location
- The Gold-Bricking State
Detroit: Become Human
- Thread starter all fictions
- Start date
- Videogame
- Location
- Texas, US
Like what? A lot of people figured out it was Shelby as there are tons of clues.
Honestly the climax of HR is perfect because it is built on what we have seen of Scott all game - he is a super tough fighting badass. By contrast, his potential opponents like Norman or Madison are pretty weak. Jayden is sort of a weird shounen protagonist who gets better at fighting only through constantly getting his teeth kicked in. Madison is, well, a dainty woman so her main strategy is run and look for opportunities.
Scott is a fuckin' juggernaut and I loved that this comes home in the final battle.
Reveen
Castro-Trudeauist
Except none of that really matters because the way Cage chose to do the reveal involves brazenly lying to the player's face about events that the player saw.
- Location
- Texas, US
The only thing I can think of is the incident with killing Manfred. I was never so certain about that but it's only one thing in the game.
I know some people say Shelby's thoughts are deceiving you but given he at one point thinks "Lauren thinks she's about the find the killer. I'm afraid she's going to be disappointed" I find this claim dubious.
I dunno, I have always really liked Heavy Rain more for its immersion than its logical thought process. Great music, too.
- Location
- Washington
Shelby constantly take actions and thinks thoughts that would indicate that he is not the Origami Killer. That whole subplot with the Kramers makes no sense, him revealing to that prostitute lady (whose name I forget) that the letter she brought him (the letter he sent) was written with a typewriter (which he had on his desk as he talked to her) and that it might be a clue instead of just saying that it was a dead end, in the graveyard he outright thinks "Why am I here in this graveyard looking for the grave of this John Shepard kid?" even though John Shepard is his brother, etc.
It is like he was written with a split personality but David Cage threw out that idea and didn't rewrite the script to accommodate that change.
It is like he was written with a split personality but David Cage threw out that idea and didn't rewrite the script to accommodate that change.
- Location
- Texas, US
Kramer Jr. killed a kid and could possibly be a handy decoy. It's also a great indicator of who Shelby is because, in the end, you can choose to save the father because he was doing exactly what Shelby wanted - to see a father sacrifice everything for their child.
Of course, if Lauren ends up dead, that fucker should die, too. I saw a playthrough where Lauren died and somebody spared Kramer and I was like what. i spared Kramer because I saved Lauren.
Manfred ended up being a loose end he had to take care of. I suppose you could argue he could have done that without Lauren, though.
Here is my problem with this sort of argument which is used a lot in fictional analysis. People? They're fucking stupid. They don't act logically, they don't think logically. Scott Shelby, even more so than you or I. He is a demented serial killer. Serial killers do a lot of dumb shit. I always had some interest in Ted Bundy and his actions in Florida where he assaults that sorority house is just completely insane and there is no way he could get away with taht. What, is God a bad writer for fucking everything up and not writing Bundy consistently?
I understand there are plot holes in HR but stuff like Shelby revealing a clue to Lauren can be chalked up to any number of reasonable factors. He's crazy, he actually likes Lauren, etc.. The fact Scott didn't just kill Lauren is actually something I've seen mentioned a few times on places as "more evidence of bad writing."
But it makes total sense and In fact, my favorite ending is this:
This YT comment sums it up well:
I love how Scott doesn't say a word or change his expression here. He knows what's coming, and because he had grown to respect Lauren for her determination in bringing her son's killer to justice, he resigns himself to his fate. Such a great moment of retribution.
ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
Yeah and guess what. "The killer's just crazy whoop-de-doop" is bad writing. It's lazy. It requires no thinking. And more to the point, it's fucking stupid and you should seriously think about yourself as a writer if you lean on that crutch because here's the thing - stories aren't real life. What makes sense in real life would not and should not fly in fiction because in fiction everything really does happen for a reason. For the stories we tell to make logical sense of the world around us, using whatever internally consistent logic said stories run on, is a fundamental human craving.
Shelby's own inner monologue outright lying to the player is fucking asinine because it requires a very intelligent and methodical serial killer to essentially be performing innocence to the audience (and also there was that one weird part where he called the cops on himself after braining Manfred with the typewriter which seemingly served no purpose other than to imperil his own faux-investigation), when in actuality his thoughts should basically be nothing but
Also Heavy Rain is probably the most braindead story in gaming history, especially as a story-focused CYOA, because of one gargantuan gaping goatse-tier plothole - Ethan Mars is very rapidly suspected of being the Origami Killer because of the orphaned plot thread of his psychic link to Shelby making him black out and dream about drowning kids and then suddenly wake up at the construction site where John Shepard drowned with an origami figure in his hand. The problem here? ETHAN MARS WAS IN A FUCKING COMA WHILE THE INITIAL KILLINGS TOOK PLACE. There would be hard evidence of this in his medical records, his ex-wife would know this, his shrink would know this, hell even Not-Jason would know this, and yet everyone in the game just mysteriously keeps their mouths shut about that because if they didn't the game would catastrophically fall apart at the seams like it does anyway.
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- Location
- Washington
You make a fair point... Except for the fact that Shelby grabs Kramer Sr. and yells at his face "YOUR SON IS THE ORIGAMI KILLER, ISN'T HE?!" after his improbable shootout rampage. For what purpose would he have to say this? To keep the charade up that he is investigating the Origami Killer Case? If so, why? This whole distraction of his nearly gets him killed and he had no reason to do it. If Kramer Jr. was a "handy decoy" wouldn't it be better to not try and do something as stupid as do a fake investigation on a suspect that you know isn't the Origami Killer when you are the Origami Killer? You could have literally cut it out and you would lose nothing of value in the story (Just like the Madison sections).
And Lauren (thanks for reminding BTW) is a massive liability so if anything her death benefited him. Going on a rampage after nearly getting killed, something that is entirely his fault by the way, and risking getting gunned down anyway is really, really dumb on his part.
Oh, I didn't even bring up Manfred, but I that is also a really dumb thing as well. So after not trying to get rid of Lauren he basically lets her poke and prod into various clues that would expose him as the Origami Killer, he takes her to the one guy in town that fixes and sells typewriters, something he wouldn't need to do if he just said the letter was a dead end. He could have come later and killed him to tie up loose ends like a smart person would have done, but instead he brings a massive liability to the location of his murder for no reason but to let this walking liability to his secret identity play detective.
What he said.
- Location
- Texas, US
@ZerbanDaGreat @TheLordofAwesome
"Shelby is a crazy serial killer and acts illogically" is an explanation. I don't see a problem here. That answers the question of why he kept Lauren around as well which I thought I already addressed. He likes Lauren. Scot Shelby is a demented human being, not a robot. His entire killing spree is based on emotion and unreason so it's entirely sensible he would fall for Lauren and act, well, emotionally and unreasonably.
Fair point about the coma plot hole. No excuse for that. Cage's love of adding teh supernatural (is there any magic in Detroit?) was clearly worked into the overall plot then cut to kep things more mundane and that was a bad move.
As for his thoughts, I am going purely off memory but I already pointed to one obvious clue he's the killer from his thoughts. There very well might be others.
"Shelby is a crazy serial killer and acts illogically" is an explanation. I don't see a problem here. That answers the question of why he kept Lauren around as well which I thought I already addressed. He likes Lauren. Scot Shelby is a demented human being, not a robot. His entire killing spree is based on emotion and unreason so it's entirely sensible he would fall for Lauren and act, well, emotionally and unreasonably.
Fair point about the coma plot hole. No excuse for that. Cage's love of adding teh supernatural (is there any magic in Detroit?) was clearly worked into the overall plot then cut to kep things more mundane and that was a bad move.
As for his thoughts, I am going purely off memory but I already pointed to one obvious clue he's the killer from his thoughts. There very well might be others.
ZerbanDaGreat
Daemon Noble of D E M O G R A P H I C S
- Pronouns
- They/them
More proof that Shelby is just badly-written; when you get to the warehouse, if Madison and/or Jayden are the ones trying to rescue Not-Jason, he logically freaks his shit because "YOU'RE NOT HIS FATHER" and tries to murder them. If Ethan shows up solo, then Shelby wholeheartedly congratulates him for finally showing him that the kind of father he wishes he had exists, and even allows Ethan to gun him down in revenge if he so desires.
But if Ethan shows up with help? Shelby shows up before Ethan can pry the lock off the grate and save Shaun instead of after, and tries to gun him down while his back is turned only to be tackled by Madison or Jayden. Because otherwise there'd be no climactic fight scene.
His entire personality and motivation change drastically depending on where Cage wants the scene to go.
- Location
- Washington
"Because he is crazy" is a very poor excuse for bad writing. Not to mention, he clearly isn't all that insane if he can act functionally within society and if how he is able to organize all this bullshit, he should be rather intelligent. And another matter is that mother who tried to kill herself. You'd think he'd have a bigger reaction to this awful parent who would leave her daughter to starve to death, but nope. Nothing. Despite his whole character being about finding a good parent. He helps her out then leaves without so much as calling Child Protective Services. As the Origami Killer this is super out of character and only makes sense in the context that it is to further lie to the audience that he isn't the OK.
Again, it would have been a thousand times better if the Origami Killer was a split personality of his, then the argument of "Because he is crazy" would be valid.
Also, where does he get all the money to afford to do all this stuff? The guy is a private detective and he can somehow afford to buy a warehouse, possibly multiple cars, various high grade equipment, an abandoned power plant, and pay off city officials to turn a blind eye to the reactivated power plant.
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- Location
- Texas, US
I am willing to concede a lot to you and Zerb but this is wrong.
Shelby hates fathers. He sends the "challenge" to fathers because it was his father who let his brother die. You forget Madison goes and meets Shelby's mother (in a really emotionally gutwrenching scene because it hits so close to real life) and when we learn Scott is the Killer we see a flashback of him visiting his mother in the care facility. She's also the one who taught him origami. And, again, he has an obvious soft spot for Lauren.
He likes mothers just fine, perhaps exceptionally much.
This is also explained. Shelby was an ex-cop (the promotion watch is the tip off for Jayden to find Shelby) and he is in league with local underworld kingpin Paco. Paco is the one providing the dough.
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- Location
- Washington
Okay, so he isn't fine with shitty fathers but shitty mothers are a-okay? I'm sorry, but that still seems out of character. Even if his main focus is the fathers he should still have a major issue with parental neglect. Because that's how people work.
Also, no that isn't explained. It is explained that's where he got that apartment building (actually he got it from that doctor who got it from Paco but details...) but everything else is not explained. I've watched this game multiple times and nowhere is it even mentioned that Scott has been getting money from Paco.
Private Lee O'Malley
Easygoing Egoist
- Location
- Gensokyo
Not the Heavy Rain thread fellas.
- Location
- The Hague
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It does help put this game in perspective though 
- Location
- Washington
Indeed it does. Sometimes you need to reflect on how bad something was to appreciate how much it has improved.It does help put this game in perspective though
Detroit is leaps and bounds better than any Quantic Dream game before it, to the point I'd dare say it is good.
- Location
- Texas, US
Well that's not an opinion I expected to hear since I saw nothing but shitting on the game in every post I glanced at.
If i ever get a new PS4 I'll give it a shot.
- Location
- secret base
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- Location
- Washington
Oh, the game has MASSIVE flaws and is by no means great, but it is still entertaining. Even if the best parts of the game are mostly the Conner and Hank stuff because Bryan Dechart and Clancy Brown have great goddamn chemistry.
Also, credit where credit is due, it doesn't feature creepy sexual assault or shower scenes.
Hykal94
Orange Estus Kitteh
- Location
- Firelink Shrine
Hmmm, did you forget when Connor sobered up Hank in the bath tub?
Best shower scene in a Cage game.
serra2
Himouto! Sylvanas-chan
Heck, if you play your cards right, you get a great shower scene with Alice, Kara, and a bunch of other Androids at the end of the game as well!
Jace911
Spider-Dork
- Location
- The Gold-Bricking State
- Location
- Washington
Dream Logic
An offseason swallow
- Location
- In transit