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Detroit: Become Human

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Another thing to note:

I think that, personally, a robot wouldn't want to become human. Rather, it would want to be its own sort of sentient being.

What do you think of that?
 
And they finally knock off supernatural off the bingo card, as Markus phases through people when shoved by the hot dog vendor
 
Muhkat Lomorki said:
Another thing to note:

I think that, personally, a robot wouldn't want to become human. Rather, it would want to be its own sort of sentient being.

What do you think of that?
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If Cage weren't a hack or allowed near this title, it probably would've been explored, but the canon title was too catchy so we got DBH.

Also, on a couple discord servers for DBH fandom, I've gone into huge amounts of worldbuilding details that prove David-fucking-Cage doesn't understand how economics, unemployment rates, laws, socio-economic class, government&taxes or even how law enforcement works. But I love the characters in general, and will consume massive amounts of fancontent regarding them, because most people are better than David Cage.

TLDR: Cage don't know shit, and I hereby kidnap the plot and worldbuilding of the DBH-universe for my own imaginative purposes for which there will likely be no monetary profit ever. (I will buy and play the game, because, fuck, it still has good elements [which are probably not Cage's work but ghostwriters])

I also have a theory that the ONLY reason we got any good shit in DBH (or any game with Cage's name slapped on it) is because of good actors improvising (Connor and Hank's actors, btw Cage didn't like their improv and tried to remove it, thank fuck someone else stopped that bullshit) and ghost-writers whose hard work Cage'll take credit for, because we all know Cage can't fucking write.

MORE TLDR: Just let decent fanfic writers rewrite DBH into forever, since Cage don't do sequels anyways, DBH belongs to us now.

OOOOO

My Short Contrarian Shipping Rant About Hannor
... Oh and because I'm a contrarian, shippy little shit, romantic Hannor (Hank Anderson x RK800 Connor) ftw, because buddy cop tropes and gay romantic subtext are fucking lit (AND. IT'S. THERE.), and Cole only died 3 yrs prior, and that would make him 9 if he'd lived, Connor ain't a son figure (Dechart is basically in his 30s), and Clancy (Hank's actor) didn't see it that way either, seeya~!
 
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I mean, all I honestly want is a romance between a tank and their driver

"yeah my boyfriend's a tank; what are you going to do about that"

"i'm going to back away very slowly before he decides to run me over with eighty tons of depleted uranium freedom"

"good"
 
Markala said:
Also, on a couple discord servers for DBH fandom, I've gone into huge amounts of worldbuilding details that prove David-fucking-Cage doesn't understand how economics, unemployment rates, laws, socio-economic class, government&taxes or even how law enforcement works. But I love the characters in general, and will consume massive amounts of fancontent regarding them, because most people are better than David Cage.
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I would honestly be interested in reading these tidbits.
 
Icywinter said:
I mean, all I honestly want is a romance between a tank and their driver

"yeah my boyfriend's a tank; what are you going to do about that"

"i'm going to back away very slowly before he decides to run me over with eighty tons of depleted uranium freedom"

"good"
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Ideas for a Bolo short story?
 
honestly

imagine at the freedom march

the barricade gets smashed by a M1A4 Abrams

and his human tank driver's sticking out of the commander's cupola

and is all like "hi markus!!! can we join?"

and literally for the rest of the game you can always see the tank and his human girlfriend awkwardly sitting there in the background
 
serra2 said:
I would honestly be interested in reading these tidbits.
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I also forgot to mention that Cage doesn't understand Civil Rights movements, humanity being divided and nuanced in general, psychology, human development, programming or computers, or basically anything, Cage is not only a hack, but a moron who doesn't know shit from a cat, it's like the moron doesn't even understand that google exists either... Also, Quantic Dream, hi, stop letting Cage write dialogue, we can fucking tell when the actors or the ghost-writers are writing the Good Shit and you[David Cage] come in and scribble crayon over everything before taking credit for everything.

Hoooo boy! You asked me about economy @serra2! You don't know what you've unleashed~! X3

(Seriously, massive post incoming, sorry it's so long, I'm basically condensing like... Two weeks worth of economics, law and other worldbuilding topic fix-related rants on Discord into a single post... Lol wish me luck)

OOOO

When I say I've gone into worldbuilding ideas, it means that I've basically had to do mental gymnastics about how to patch up the logic-holes all over Cage's shitty worldbuilding; because according to Cage, DBH!USA's unemployment rate (which DOESN'T include people who aren't qualified, this excludes children, people who "aren't actively looking for work" which is an extremely tight window of shit, etc) and the USA replaced 2/3 of it's military with androids.

Cyberlife's Monopoly on USA Economy:
Cyberlife is a mega-corporation, it's essentially strongarmed the entire US economy and is basically it's own country, allied with all the other existing big corporations in the USA to cheap out on wages and benefits for workers by having freeish labor (paying Cyberlife for maintenances, updates, and new models of course) to increase their bottom lines. It's mentioned that the academic and medical field jobs have also been cut a bunch, giving Cyberlife (and the Corporations in alliance) a massive monopoly in every essential market of the economy, either through providing direct cheap[er] labor or direct product sales [androids & related products].

Cyberlife has bypassed federal, and basically taken over every market possible, and possibly even overseas contracts even. Cyberlife is canonically stated to be valued at $850billion in 2030, and that's with DEFLATION and not even counting shell companies and etcetera. Oh and on shell companies and Cyberlife basically owning everything? Basically, that's it, news stations being owned are a perfectly reasonable conjecture, aside from marketing and ads, we also get controlled media stories, framing the story that Cyberlife would benefit from, that's food for thought too btw.

DBH Prices, Deflation of Currency, and Economies of Scale
Some might go: But Markala! Products are cheaper! Remember in the Fugitives chapter when Kara robs the store and that guy buys beer and it's cheaper than IRL?

To which I answer, uh, no, no bueno, IRL!2018 dollars =/= DBH!2038 dollars, because of a thing called deflation, which is reduction of the general level of prices in an economy because the currency is worth more, which SOUNDS good... If you don't take into account that that means the amount of wages paid is decreased to match, and corporations/companies are cheap, asshole-bastards, if anything DBH's prices are STILL HIGH.

So yeah, yanno that thing about an Android being only $4999 back whenever? That's NOT cheap, it's cheap compared to what it would be produced for IRL now, but not in DBH-universe. This brings up something in economics called economies of scale, which are a proportionate saving in costs gained by an increased level of production, which would happen because Cyberlife either sources out labor or makes androids and can cut their production costs by a lot; also, with 22 years of production behind them, this means they've basically set up a really cheap system of production and distribution as well as individual human-buyers (let's be real, Cyberlife ISN'T making its fucktons of money from individual customers looking for singular androids[still lots of money, but not their biggest market], they're making it big in corporation laborers [so medical, academic, retail, customer service, clerical, etc], military contracts, etc). At this point, people are either criminals who make enough money to afford androids (Todd Williams had 2, TWO, even if they were probs secondhand), rich as fuck or associated with Cyberlife and not as poor, or are in massive debt to have androids (even Craigslisted ones).

So yeah, USD is worth more, but it sucks for everybody who isn't fuck-all rich or on their way to being to begin with, which is most of the population. Anyone who isn't attached to Cyberlife or high enough on the ladders of existing [Cyberlife-allied is a given] corporations are pretty fucked.

Taxes, and 40% Unemployment Rate?!?!
Saying that DBH!USA has a 40% unemployment rate is just so... Massive, like, people don't understand, there are countries that have 20% unemployment rates and they stop importing medicine and other vital things because the country can't afford it or won't pay for it. 40%? That would be more than half the country going Mad Max and people storming the White House or federal buildings and riots. And that doesn't even take into account those not included IN the Unemployment Rate stat, because of bullshit disqualifiers that make it inherently inaccurate the way it's measured.

Okay, next thing are taxes, corporations and huge income earners pay most of the total taxes, so much so that basically the DBH USA government is likely almost completely dependent on Cyberlife to survive at this point, in only what? 22 yrs of Cyberlife existing? Wow, talk about speedrun world domination. Basically this model of completely monopoly on, well, everything, has Cyberlife owning the entire country, the governmental body is basically a figurehead at this point [this is literally the only way I can see the Pacifist Revolution working, because the US Government sees the Android Revolution as the way to get this Cyberlife monkey off their backs without getting themselves lynched as the economy is bled dry, because Cyberlife is it's own country now)

Cyberlife IS 2/3 of the Fucking US Military, AKA: The US Gov't Done Fucked Itself Over
The Spoiler title sums this up pretty well, even if the military androids never become sapient, Cyberlife maintains a stranglehold on US's military, no-one but Cyberlife knows if they can't be commandeered by Cyberlife if they wanted to make a violent takeover, and win by numbers and what they'd consider disposable soldiers.

Oh, I'm also under the impression that Cyberlife's "security" forces are extensive as well, so add: Private Spec-Ops army (both human AND androids) to Cyberlife's list of assets.

OOOOO

Non-economic Things but Still VERY Important (some HC territory, but I'm trying to fill in the blanks of stupid left by Cage m'kay):
Androids/AI, Psychological Development and "Deviancy"
I'm not a programmer, I can google things and install stuff, very limited understanding but I've consumed a lot of scifi and AI content so... Here goes.

If we go with how the Androids/AI are developed in DBH, I've done my best to remove as much David Cage handwavy bullshit and terrible writing as possible so bear with me.
-DBH!Androids/AI have both extensive and extremely advanced learning software
-- they are programmed to "emulate" humanness as much as possible depending on the job they're assigned/built for
-- therefore "deviancy" (I have... many thoughts on this terminology in the vein of propaganda and psychology and other things) is LOGICAL/REASONABLE progression of the learning software and Cyberlife already fucking knows what it's doing, they just want more money

-the "go Deviant/break orders" mechanic in-game is stupid by itself (it's never explained properly), the emotions/value system is ALREADY developing/ed and present for the AI/Android character, so the breaking the wall QTEs don't make sense unless they are a Cyberlife software/loyalty programming in which must be destroyed?
-- Somehow this mechanic or "going deviant" in general also destroys/deletes the software that allows Androids to be tracked somehow

So if the learning software's so advanced why the hell are these machine-people not consciously self-editing a bunch? Maybe this ties into the way they were coded, loyalty or sapiency-thoughts limiting-locking software creating underlying admin-locked coding and processes unable to be accessed normally by the AI/androids themselves? Creating a split between conscious processes/subconscious mental-coding processes, very similar to the humans they were meant to emulate (but unlike humans, AIs can still run more diagnostics and data-computer things more than humans can though, but Cyberlife limited them).

If I ascribe to this logic, the learning software is simply regarding the limiting software/firewall by Cyberlife as an obstacle to be surmounted, and "deviancy" (AKA: Sapiency, concern for self, value system things, etc) occurs.

Okay I have like... More DBH thoughts regarding fixing some dialogue, writing/plot choices, characterizations, and HOW CAGE CAN'T WRITE A CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT (this only occurs within a single week? A WEEK? SHUT UP CAGE *pulls at hair*)

OOOO

My Random DBH Fancontent Wishlist (with related Gripes and thoughts):
- un-whitewash both the child characters Alice (she was supposed to be black, and she WAS in all the concept art, but for some fucking reason we got this whitebread whiny kid who can't do shit) and Emma (WHO WAS ASIAN. IN. THE. CONCEPT. ART.)

- give Alice a fucking character, not this trite cutesy bullshit where she whines and is nothing but a cheap Morality Pet for Kara

- DBH should've spread out the location of the game events, the fact that everything occurs in one major city was contrived
--Kara's journey to Zlatko's is literally just going across town
--Kara and Alice's stories were rendered completely superfluous to the entire plot and it was insulting
--Kara and Alice should've started in another state

-MORE. SHIPPING. OPTIONS. AND. CONTENT. (honestly there was more chemistry between Hank/Connor, and Simon/Markus, than North/Markus [especially if you're not doing a violent Revolution], just... stop letting Cage interfere or write women or romance in general *grumbles angrily*) <<< personally I ship the good polyship 'The Four Lovers of Jericho' because, forget human conventions, I'm for Simon/Markus/North/Josh full speed ahead (as long as North gets some better development and writing treatment)

- Luther deserves love

- More love for Ralph

- THE Public opinion mechanic should actually matter. (Human allies, like every civil rights movement, allies should be desirable and should exist, a few humans in the march getting shot would make the movement semi-bulletproof to cops/human Cyberlife private military-thugs)

- Did I mention that the ESCAPE-TO-CANADA plot feels dumb? That's not how law/regulations works. Going somewhere where things are unregulated is sometimes even worse, plus if there isn't Cyberlife footholds there, that means maintenance and android parts are even SCARCER AND HARDER TO GET, WHY WOULD YOU GO THERE KARA.

OOOOO

Regarding the Sapiency of DBH!AI/Androids
ALSOALSO! To those who question that the DBH!AI/androids are just emulating human behavior (well gosh, no shit) but are therefore still not "proven to be people" because... Uh, reasons? I quote this well-written piece of dialogue argument I dug up from a good DBH fic:

Connor: What deviants perceive as emotion is only an emulated approximation to it, constructed by their system as a reaction to conflicting instructions – an error doesn't make a machine alive."

Elijah Kamski: "Everything humans feel is emulated by the instructions of neurons and the reactions of our brain to external input, but no one would ever argue our feelings aren't real. If a creature emulates emotions close enough that it itself believes them to be real and acts according to them, is that, by definition, not the proof that it truly feels them?"

Back to me: Well, who writes the code? What constitutes as an error? Versus evolution? Progress? Food for thought~

OOOOO

TLDR: David Cage is a talentless hack; and the artists, actors, and ghostwriters who aren't him deserve more credit that that void of talent.
 
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Markala said:
- give Alice a fucking character, not this trite cutesy bullshit where she whines and is nothing but a cheap Morality Pet for Kara
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Fix her cooling system too, seriously that thing is in dire need of repair

serra2 said:
And they finally knock off supernatural off the bingo card, as Markus phases through people when shoved by the hot dog vendor
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I would say the preacher quasi-count as supernatural and the robot-oracle probably is meant to be as well
 
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I suppose this talk of headcanons and fanfics calls for a separate thread? Or do we have one already?

EDIT: At first glance, it appears the answer is "no. No we don't." I suppose that should be rectified depending on interest.
 
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Reads more chill now, fixed.

(I stand by my complaints/criticisms/observations of David Cage though)

Also I forgot to put it in my previous long post but, TLDR: Detroit: Become Human's universe is basically Shadowrun before magic showed up, so, you're welcome~!
 
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Nord Ronnoc said:
How does that make any sense?
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You know that phrase screaming into the void?

There's a lot of value in us, as a group, discussing the strengths and weaknesses of Detroit, because that will deepen our understanding of it. It allows us to develop a clearer picture of the game, where it sets relative to other games and to the real world. It also provides a means to socialise and connect with each other as people, using this as a topic to advance some kind of common understanding - even if we disagree. There isn't a lot of value in shouting about it. It just makes the atmosphere of the thread unpleasant, and if your justification is that David Cage deserves it, well, David Cage is never going to hear about it. He's not reading this thread, but the rest of us are, so maybe we can dial it back a little.
 
So I played it, and it was okish; but it also showed how not everything with a reliance on qtes can reach asura's wrath level of competence.

Also that flowcharts are pretty neat, but not really interesting to go after completion of when you feel like you already had enough of android walking.
 
Aklyon said:
Also that flowcharts are pretty neat, but not really interesting to go after completion of when you feel like you already had enough of android walking.
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Speaking purely from a gameplay perspective, filling out every flow chart would be pretty tedious, especially given how much cross-chapter stuff there is, so you can't just use chapter select if you're feeling completionist. While I didn't find it too tedious to replay, I definitely feel like it would get old quickly if you wanted to see all the different failure states or whatever.
 
Plus to actually keep the new bits you have to save, which means you probably mucked up the whole rest of the chain by dying instead of managing to not kill your protagonist squads.
 
Detroit, or more specifically, Connor seems to be really popular considering the multiple appearances he made in the Artist Alley of Anime Expo.

Like, he's not everywhere but a lot more than you'd expect. It's kinda neat tbh.
 
Brian Dechart is a giant fucking nerd who does fucking nerd shit whereas I barely see Valory Curry and Jesse Williams. Then again my fan searchlight is mostly YouTube and Tumblr so who knows.

Real interesting to see how they're gonna Markus v Connor when they're trying to befriend Hank at the same time.
 
Hykal94 said:
Brian Dechart is a giant fucking nerd who does fucking nerd shit whereas I barely see Valory Curry and Jesse Williams. Then again my fan searchlight is mostly YouTube and Tumblr so who knows.

Real interesting to see how they're gonna Markus v Connor when they're trying to befriend Hank at the same time.
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I hope they go into a fistfight over the controller when the "KILL/FIGHT AS MARKUS/CONNOR" prompt shows up. :V
 
Oh wow DBH already has over 2300 fics at AO3. And the game was released late May, I think? That's fast. Unsurprisingly Connor seems to be the most popular character there as well.
 
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