Daggerfall in SPAAACE - Starfield

[Mandemon]

It's honestly amazing how people are willing to accept every single other colony out there, but somehow Neon is a step too far. Like, what is it about Neon people find so offensive that it needs to justify its existence? Especially when basically every single argument levied against it applies to every other colony out there.

 

[Ironanvil1]

And those other planets have standardised power generators, resource extractors and industrial fabricators that can very quickly get a new colony up and running, providing either something approaching self-sufficiency, or an export market to sustain what imports they require, with minimal manning.

 

[Kadmus]

You could probably pretty easily explain that side of things for Neon, at least; you can set up instant colonies on hard-vacuum worlds and very hazardous high-pressure worlds single-handedly (though this is probably a gameplay conceit, to be fair) so underwater mineral extraction is likely fairly simple for the tech level in Starfield. We do know that 'just go to whatever fucking planet and set up there' is a pretty normal thing for small groups to do. Though often we know that because we run into those groups, dead, their homes occupied by either Pirates Type 1 or Pirates Type 2.

 

[Ironanvil1]

You could probably pretty easily explain that side of things for Neon, at least; you can set up instant colonies on hard-vacuum worlds and very hazardous high-pressure worlds single-handedly (though this is probably a gameplay conceit, to be fair) so underwater mineral extraction is likely fairly simple for the tech level in Starfield. We do know that 'just go to whatever fucking planet and set up there' is a pretty normal thing for small groups to do. Though often we know that because we run into those groups, dead, their homes occupied by either Pirates Type 1 or Pirates Type 2.

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As I said upthread, there no reason you couldn't justify the stuff seen in game, it's just there's nothing in game to do so, and what is there mostly undercuts the logic of said settlements existing.

 

[Mandemon]

And those other planets have standardised power generators, resource extractors and industrial fabricators that can very quickly get a new colony up and running, providing either something approaching self-sufficiency, or an export market to sustain what imports they require, with minimal manning.

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An export market you say? Hmm, I wonder what export Neon could have...

Hint: It was founded as a fishing rig
Hint: They discovered an exclusive source of a drug that became very popular
Hint: They are the only legal place where you can enjoy said drug

Man, I wonder if ability to offer exclusive experience while exporting fish, could offer a way to fund all this..

 

[Old Spice Guy]

I mean I'm not bothered about Neon because it doesn't look like it's meant to be big? It looks like it's supposed to be a tourist town with a big bolted on business area which is fine?

 

[Ironanvil1]

An export market you say? Hmm, I wonder what export Neon could have...

Hint: It was founded as a fishing rig
Hint: They discovered an exclusive source of a drug that became very popular
Hint: They are the only legal place where you can enjoy said drug

Man, I wonder if ability to offer exclusive experience while exporting fish, could offer a way to fund all this..

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Of course, this is why all the largest cities are on oil rigs with methlabs.

I mean I'm not bothered about Neon because it doesn't look like it's meant to be big? It looks like it's supposed to be a tourist town with a big bolted on business area which is fine?

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It's that those components don't really work together, since to have a large corporate workforce, you're basically running into all of San Francisco's problems turned up to eleven, plus "drug xanadu" with the side effects of a underclass of trapped addicts, corrupt security, and rampant gang violence doesn't really play nice with the desired corporate atmosphere.

 

[Old Spice Guy]

Of course, this is why all the largest cities are on oil rigs with methlabs.

It's that those components don't really work together, since to have a large corporate workforce, you're basically running into all of San Francisco's problems turned up to eleven, plus "drug xanadu" with the side effects of a underclass of trapped addicts, corrupt security, and rampant gang violence doesn't really play nice with the desired corporate atmosphere.

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It doesn't really seem to have a huge corporate workforce there. We've seen execs and R&D for like five or 6 companies. The factories don't seem to be there and all that's probably on a few thousand people. Genuinely didn't seem unbelievably small to me.

 

[stratigo]

Neon is using an aesthetic that doesn't fit the starfield setting, primarily because I suspect the devs think cyberpunk is cool.

But it makes neon clash with the rest of the setting.

 

[Old Spice Guy]

Neon is using an aesthetic that doesn't fit the starfield setting, primarily because I suspect the devs think cyberpunk is cool.

But it makes neon clash with the rest of the setting.

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I don't get this because it feels like saying Tokyo doesn't fit with western Europe or the east coast. Travel in setting seems easy enough that's there's room.

I have my problems with this game but the setting is decently coherent in a way I'm actually a bit surprised at after F4 and F76.

 

[Kodiak]

I don't get this because it feels like saying Tokyo doesn't fit with western Europe or the east coast. Travel in setting seems easy enough that's there's room.

I have my problems with this game but the setting is decently coherent in a way I'm actually a bit surprised at after F4 and F76.

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The grav drives are effectively instant. The only time in a trip or commute is how long it takes to go from surface-space and space-surface. Which also seems pretty quick.

This raised several other worldbuilding issues but it would aggregate population.

 

[Mandemon]

Of course, this is why all the largest cities are on oil rigs with methlabs.

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Yeah, that is why places like New Vegas utterly failed and there is nothing there. It's why Dubai is just a small poor port. Remind me again what valuable product did Hong Kong produce again? Why would people put factories on a small island? Are they stupid?

Hey, tell me again what a small place San Fransisco is!

The grav drives are effectively instant. The only time in a trip or commute is how long it takes to go from surface-space and space-surface. Which also seems pretty quick.

This raised several other worldbuilding issues but it would aggregate population.

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What world building issues? And how is travel time with grav drives any reason for Neon, once again an overgrown fishing rig, required to conform to "style" of... let me see... Cydonia, New Atlantis, Akila City and Hopetown?

No wait, all those cities have entirely different looks

 

[Old Spice Guy]

The big problem with all the settlements in this game is the same. I refuse to believe that in the future they won't all have Google maps. Just let me have a map.

That I will blame Todd for as it is actively unfun.

Oh and a vehicle. One of the first things we put on the moon was a car. Do it.

 

[Kadmus]

Yeah, the lack of a real map is extremely annoying. If I can't flog all the shit I picked up at the terminal at the spaceport because they can only afford three guns every 48 hours, at least don't make me have to remember how to get to the other three or four vendors I need to so I can ditch 10% of my inventory for actual money instead of just throwing it into a black hole and shrugging.

 

[Mandemon]

I suspect lack of map is due to procgen regions. They can't have pre-made maps for random sites you land, and I suspect the engine doesn't like having two tier map system.

AltoughIIRC they are working on adding local maps for settlements

 

[Hykal94]

Hopetown isn't even a town. It's a factory with a bar/inn and a gunstore strapped to it lol. People go on and on about how great Ron Hope is, and while it's clearly going for a company town thing, it is absolutely not that. How am I supposed to take Ron Hope's shtick seriously when no one has a goddamn house? People give Akila City shit but it's at least a functioning and believable settlement.

And I refuse to write it as HopeTown. Get fucked, Ron.

 

[Ford Prefect]

As I said upthread, there no reason you couldn't justify the stuff seen in game, it's just there's nothing in game to do so

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This is getting ridiculous. The game goes to great pains to explain where Neon comes from, the most important being the megalomania of the Bayu family.

The grav drives are effectively instant. The only time in a trip or commute is how long it takes to go from surface-space and space-surface. Which also seems pretty quick.

This raised several other worldbuilding issues but it would aggregate population.

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There's no reason why it would definitively 'aggregate population' even if it were effectively instant, which it's not. It's literally instant in the sense that the jump itself takes no time, but the drives are limited by fuel and distance. Those logistical issues are smoothed over for gameplay reasons (and I cannot imagine how much you'd all be complaining if we had to refuel lol) but they would impose an effective travel time, especially when looking at the entirety of the Settled Systems.

 

[Mandemon]

It's literally instant in the sense that the jump itself takes no time, but the drives are limited by fuel and distance. Those logistical issues are smoothed over for gameplay reasons (and I cannot imagine how much you'd all be complaining if we had to refuel lol) but they would impose an effective travel time, especially when looking at the entirety of the Settled Systems.

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Earlier versions of Starfield did, in fact, require players to refuel or find He3 containing worlds and collect fuel on those. They removed it because it kinda made the game boring. Starfield was a lot more survival focused in its earlier iterations, which can be seen in outposts. In current build, they are 100% optional. Earlier, they were critical pitstops to allow travel further into the unknown.

Also, there is time it takes for the drive to spool up. There is an encounter with MAST geologist whose drive takes minutes to spool up.

 

[Old Spice Guy]

Those logistical issues are smoothed over for gameplay reasons (and I cannot imagine how much you'd all be complaining if we had to refuel lol) but they would impose an effective travel time, especially when looking at the entirety of the Settled Systems.

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I think that's what the settlement system was supposed to be for which makes sense with all the He3 stations you find on pirate bases too as an alternate for those who like me, aren't big builders.

Edit: Corporate ninjas lol.

 

[slybrarian]

For me, Neon makes sense in the current setting, but I'm not sure how it fits in as one of the founding members of the Freestar Collective. It'd make a lot more sense if Neon's importance as a center of industry was a more recent thing, maybe explicitly tied to corporate power growing during the Colony War. It would make the internal politics of the FC more interesting if there was a tension between the libertarian cowboys and all these corporate goons who seem to have profitted from the war and tie in with the Ranger quest line.

Speaking of the FC, it makes no sense to me that Aurora is illegal there - why does this anarchro-libertarian loose alliance with a few dozen cops care about what drugs people take? I could see it being illegal in Akila, maybe, but even there I'm not sure their attitude towards everything else makes that fit. It feels like one of those things where it should have been used to make the FC and UC more distinct and open up more opportunities to smuggle things between the two.

 

[Hykal94]

Here's my completely arbitrary list of settlement types:

Cities: New Atlantis, Neon

Towns: Akila City, Cydonia

Smaller settlements: Hopetown, Eleos Retreat, Paradiso, New Homestead, Gagarin, Crucible

Staryard/stations: the numerous naval bases and shipbuilding operations, the Den, the Clinic, ect

I'm probably missing a few, but what's noticeable this is a fair few number of settlements. Easily trumps Fallout 4, but it probably not as many as Skyrim's cities and it's minor villages. The game probably needs a bit more than what we have now. NA and AC need suburbs and ranches. It does not sell the illusion enough. Solitude had (non functioning) boats in its docks, and NA is near a big lake. Just dot some cottages here and there, take your parents fishing, that sorta thing.

Akila City doesn't feel like a capital of a major power, Hopetown is lmao. New Atlantis and Neon are very much the most impressive cities Bethesda has ever made. The verticality of both cities are very unique. Was talking to some other folks and the jet packs of the game are probably the closest we'll get to Morrowind Icarian Flight. Bethesda is just ONE step away from bringing it back.

 

[Sir Bill]

For me, Neon makes sense in the current setting, but I'm not sure how it fits in as one of the founding members of the Freestar Collective. It'd make a lot more sense if Neon's importance as a center of industry was a more recent thing, maybe explicitly tied to corporate power growing during the Colony War. It would make the internal politics of the FC more interesting if there was a tension between the libertarian cowboys and all these corporate goons who seem to have profitted from the war and tie in with the Ranger quest line.

Speaking of the FC, it makes no sense to me that Aurora is illegal there - why does this anarchro-libertarian loose alliance with a few dozen cops care about what drugs people take? I could see it being illegal in Akila, maybe, but even there I'm not sure their attitude towards everything else makes that fit. It feels like one of those things where it should have been used to make the FC and UC more distinct and open up more opportunities to smuggle things between the two.

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I honestly just figured it was weird and aggressive lobbying by Benjamin Bayu.

"Aurora is dangerous and destructive, and should be kept away from your neighborhoods."

"Okay, that's fair."

"You should take it in my neighborhoods exclusively. Much better."

"Oooookay?"

He wants to encourage lots of tourism, after all.

 

[Ford Prefect]

For me, Neon makes sense in the current setting, but I'm not sure how it fits in as one of the founding members of the Freestar Collective. It'd make a lot more sense if Neon's importance as a center of industry was a more recent thing, maybe explicitly tied to corporate power growing during the Colony War. It would make the internal politics of the FC more interesting if there was a tension between the libertarian cowboys and all these corporate goons who seem to have profitted from the war and tie in with the Ranger quest line.

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To some extent you get that tension as part of the Ranger storyline. Much as when you visit Ron Hope you get told to not make waves, and the Ranger assigned to Neon basically just greases the wheels. If not for the existence of the UC it then it seems unlikely that Akila and Volii Alpha would become such close allies, but Solomon Coe was nothing if not pragmatic. Now they've been stuck together for so long that the alternative is basically unthinkable, so you get something of a can't live with them, can't live without them element.

Speaking of the FC, it makes no sense to me that Aurora is illegal there - why does this anarchro-libertarian loose alliance with a few dozen cops care about what drugs people take? I could see it being illegal in Akila, maybe, but even there I'm not sure their attitude towards everything else makes that fit. It feels like one of those things where it should have been used to make the FC and UC more distinct and open up more opportunities to smuggle things between the two.

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It's important to remember that Neon's administrators are not subject to the Collective's government, they are the government. Aurora was likely made illegal for the benefit of the Bayu family, in much the same way that Benjamin Bayu so strongly controls its trade in the modern day of the setting.

 

[Carrington]

Earlier versions of Starfield did, in fact, require players to refuel or find He3 containing worlds and collect fuel on those. They removed it because it kinda made the game boring. Starfield was a lot more survival focused in its earlier iterations, which can be seen in outposts. In current build, they are 100% optional. Earlier, they were critical pitstops to allow travel further into the unknown.

Also, there is time it takes for the drive to spool up. There is an encounter with MAST geologist whose drive takes minutes to spool up.

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I do hope that we'll get an official survival mode that'll enable refueling again down the line. While I can see that it could get tedious and boring fast, I also think that it could be a nice alternative play style.

Though they should then also change the PoI generation. If I spent hours travelling into the unknown, building refueling outpost after refueling outpost, then it would probably be super annoying to see a couple of abandoned bases/mines/etc immediately after landing and then have a ship or two* land near you.

*Which btw happened to me recently. I landed on a random planet and as usual another ship was landing near me. The ship looked pretty unique, so I made my way to it, but before I made it halfway there, it took off. I lost sight off it and immediately a ship came in to land from where the first ship had flown off to. I was honestly pretty stoked, since I thought that the ship had tried and failed to fly off and now I had another chance too actually see it with the bonus possibility of story content. And it turned out to be just a random ordinary pirate ship. Was pretty disappointing

 

[LordInsane]

(Tangentially, I'm curious what Walter says if you pick the "expensive everything" Kepler-R. He likes the Kepler-S.)

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He likes it too, indicates it worked out better than expected and says he's going to make it his new personal ship.

And then there's Trident cruises, who I think are their own manufacturers? But that's in the "luxury for rent" market, so not really personal consumers.

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Yes, they are, and the dialogue at their Staryard backs up what you say - they do apparently have some sales to personal consumers but it's small enough that they aren't set up to always be able to do so (eg. you can't buy a Trident ship yourself) - it's not explicit but seems implied that one reason the Trader stayed in whatever universe you encounter them in is that they finally got their hands on a Trident craft and don't want to give up that luxury.