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Daggerfall in SPAAACE - Starfield

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Old Spice Guy said:
So I played a bit more after this and everyone was remarking how I killed everyone and it was the job. It didn't feel like it was for me to decide, I'm a bit disappointed that putting in the effort leads to an identical outcome, and because the game acts like it, it's hard to rp around.
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A lot of the missions are like that, the illusion of choice and impact, but with no discernible difference from player actions. The power quest in the Well being an early one that stuck in my mind.

Light years wide, and millimetres deep.
 
Old Spice Guy said:
So I played a bit more after this and everyone was remarking how I killed everyone and it was the job. It didn't feel like it was for me to decide, I'm a bit disappointed that putting in the effort leads to an identical outcome, and because the game acts like it, it's hard to rp around.
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Did you have a companion with you on the mission?
 
Ford Prefect said:
That's weird, it didn't flag my EM stuns as kills, and other quests with a no kill requirement don't flag them either. Might have run into a bug or ... do you recall destroying any cleaning robots lol
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No, I actually only ever fired 3 or 4 times because you can just sprint through. Just got 'Wow, you killed them all' afterwards apart from the admiral and bomb guy who I disarmed.

E: I don't even think there were cleaning bots (dirty pirates hate roombas apparently), this is the last CF mission working for the UC.
 
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Ironanvil1 said:
A lot of the missions are like that, the illusion of choice and impact, but with no discernible difference from player actions.
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Most games are the same though. I'm playing cyberpunk2077, and nothing you do for gigs matters. I even knocked out a guy (game registered that he was alive) and his son was all like 'Why did you kill my father?"

It's so wierd playing these games back to back, as one is critically aclaimed and the other hated, and yet they are pretty identical.
 
Jakinbandw said:
Most games are the same though. I'm playing cyberpunk2077, and nothing you do for gigs matters. I even knocked out a guy (game registered that he was alive) and his son was all like 'Why did you kill my father?"

It's so wierd playing these games back to back, as one is critically aclaimed and the other hated, and yet they are pretty identical.
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Considering how people felt about Cyberpunk this close after launch, that's a very strange argument.
 
Old Spice Guy said:
It has changed a lot and I've heard Phanton Liberty is great. Starfields RPG competition is BG3, which well, is notably different in terms of choice and results.
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I have the phantom liberty DLC, and I started a new game like it suggested. I'm playing it back to back with starfield. They really are similar games, though starfield gives more interesting options for how to approach problems. It's hard to go back to not having a jetpack. Also, with this new update it seems harder to not kill people. Can't find the non-lerhal mods or cyberware.
 
Jakinbandw said:
I have the phantom liberty DLC, and I started a new game like it suggested. I'm playing it back to back with starfield. They really are similar games, though starfield gives more interesting options for how to approach problems. It's hard to go back to not having a jetpack. Also, with this new update it seems harder to not kill people. Can't find the non-lerhal mods or cyberware.
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Double jump is basically your jetpack.:V
And I've got a couple of weapons which are non-lethal, but I think they're all iconic.
 
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Starfield Updates 1.7.36 – October 09, 2023
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    • store.steampowered.com

    Starfield - Starfield Updates 1.7.36 – October 09, 2023 - Steam News

    A new update has been released for Starfield on all platforms. This update includes changes to Settings that allow for players to adjust their FOV as well as some other performance and stability improvements. Thank you so much for your continued feedback and support of Starfield and we look...
    store.steampowered.com store.steampowered.com

    Starfield 1.7.36 Update - Fixes and Improvements

    General
    FOV: Sliders are now available in Settings that allow players using first person or third person to adjust their FOV.

    Performance and Stability
    [PC ONLY] Improved stability for Intel Arc GPUs.
    Various additional stability and performance improvements.

    Quest
    Echoes of the Past: Addressed an issue where tunneling creatures could pick a location that would prevent progression.
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    That's it? Guess I need to update all my mods.
     
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    • Hykal94 said:
    store.steampowered.com

    Starfield - Starfield Updates 1.7.36 – October 09, 2023 - Steam News

    A new update has been released for Starfield on all platforms. This update includes changes to Settings that allow for players to adjust their FOV as well as some other performance and stability improvements. Thank you so much for your continued feedback and support of Starfield and we look...
    store.steampowered.com store.steampowered.com



    That's it? Guess I need to update all my mods.
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    No fix for the New Atlantis penthouse being wiped? That's an easy game ruining bug.
     
    I'm looking at the subreddit and there's like three sidequets people can't finish because an NPC is missing or something. I had to do some console commands to fix one quest from Mars at Neon.

    Kodiak said:
    No fix for the New Atlantis penthouse being wiped? That's an easy game ruining bug.
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    To be fair, Bethesda is a small indie studio. You can't rush this.
     
    Jakinbandw said:
    I have the phantom liberty DLC, and I started a new game like it suggested. I'm playing it back to back with starfield. They really are similar games, though starfield gives more interesting options for how to approach problems. It's hard to go back to not having a jetpack. Also, with this new update it seems harder to not kill people. Can't find the non-lerhal mods or cyberware.
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    CP2077 really shows the downsides of voicing everyone, since the limitations on RPG social interactions imposed by it are very blatant.

    EDIT: Oh, and non lethal is a weapon mod now, you buy it off the gun vendors. There's also a mod turns the stock non-lethal blunt weapons lethal.
     
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    You know, I realized what is it that makes settlements in Starfield feel so small.

    Jetpack. It offers so much mobility to us that we don't even realize how fast we are breezing through areas. In previous games, the illusion of larger place was sold by player being forced to take various narrow corridors around the city. In Starfield, we can, at any given moment, boost ourself over the roofs and just make a beeline for the location we want to visit. There is nothing to slow us down, nothing to make us look around and go "Huh, there's a lot of stuff here".
     
    Mandemon said:
    You know, I realized what is it that makes settlements in Starfield feel so small.

    Jetpack. It offers so much mobility to us that we don't even realize how fast we are breezing through areas. In previous games, the illusion of larger place was sold by player being forced to take various narrow corridors around the city. In Starfield, we can, at any given moment, boost ourself over the roofs and just make a beeline for the location we want to visit. There is nothing to slow us down, nothing to make us look around and go "Huh, there's a lot of stuff here".
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    I suppose Morrowind is the one that comes closest, but getting that boosted Acrobatics was a a considerably more end-game thing than getting a boost pack and putting a point in the boost pack skill (and Vivec had a trick to force you into narrow corridors anyway).
     
    Mandemon said:
    Based on what? First you say that people would be settling random planets, now it's "oh there isn't population to settle a single settlement with already established infastructure"?

    You can't have "people would settle elsewhere" and "not enough population" at the same time.

    Like, we run into people all the time, of both UC, Freestar and independent. The population of Settled Systems might not be in tens of billions, but it clearly reaches high millions at least, possible billions.
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    You don't seem to be grasping this. There are no in-setting push or pull factors that make a large population on Neon make sense, and a number that mandate against it, such as the need to import damn near everything.
     
    Ironanvil1 said:
    You don't seem to be grasping this. There are no in-setting push or pull factors that make a large population on Neon make sense, and a number that mandate against it, such as the need to import damn near everything.
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    Again: There is pull because corporations are there, and people aren't going to be commuting from other star system.

    FFS, your argument could be made about every single settlement, real or fictional, ever because you are trying to look it in vacuum, as if current Settled System existed since the dawn of time.

    Again, Neon predates FC. That kinda gives it push and pull, because it is few of the larger settled locations, and most people are going to prefer civilization over living in wilderness.
     
    Mandemon said:
    Again: There is pull because corporations are there, and people aren't going to be commuting from other star system.

    FFS, your argument could be made about every single settlement, real or fictional, ever because you are trying to look it in vacuum, as if current Settled System existed since the dawn of time.

    Again, Neon predates FC. That kinda gives it push and pull, because it is few of the larger settled locations, and most people are going to prefer civilization over living in wilderness.
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    No, the question of 'why is there a big city here' is a super legitimate one. Cities aren't their own justification. Trade doesn't happen because it's more fun to move stuff long distances than not. Cities need serious flows of goods coming in to exist, and some way to make those flows happen. In many cases on Earth those flows are geographically or governmentally determined - neither of which seems possible for Neon.

    (And a luxury tourism city is in many ways worse because that only works if you have enough mobile luxury-seeking elites coming through to support a city. That's not a minor thing.)
     
    Seafood. Neon should be largest supplier of seafood in the settled systems, unfortunately that's not in the game. One of Bethesda's consistent failings is in not showing the true scale and logistics behind their settlements. They all run on vibes, which I like because I'm here for the vibes, but other people aren't me and can, and do, find that unsatisfying.
     
    Aineko said:
    No, the question of 'why is there a big city here' is a super legitimate one. Cities aren't their own justification. Trade doesn't happen because it's more fun to move stuff long distances than not. Cities need serious flows of goods coming in to exist, and some way to make those flows happen. In many cases on Earth those flows are geographically or governmentally determined - neither of which seems possible for Neon.

    (And a luxury tourism city is in many ways worse because that only works if you have enough mobile luxury-seeking elites coming through to support a city. That's not a minor thing.)
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    Okay, let me try to twist this from iron bar for you.

    1) Neon is founded as simple fishing rig. Seeing how it's far away from everything, naturally it develops into company town, where people are born, work and die. People don't commute from other star systems, they are going to live on the rig. So businesses catering to fishery workers forms.

    2) Aurora is discovered. Since this is the only source of it, it quickly becomes a very profitable business. Night clubs are founded where Aurora can be legally enjoyed. If you want to imagine this in real life, imagine that a nation designated a single city as "pot capital", place where marijuana is legal. I trust you can imagine business that would very quickly grow there.

    3) With tourism as increasing business, Bayou creates Trade Tower to invite other corporations in, promising them freedom from regulations. Considering that, at the time, your option was UC or bust, a lot of corporations pick this option. Most notably, Ruyjin who go so far as to build Ruyjin Tower to serve as their conglomerate HQ.

    4) With corporations moving to Neon, their employees follow them. Once again, people are not going to commute from other star system. So businesses catering to those people arrive to make money. GalBank follows the follow. Terrabrew brings not!coffee to all those office workers. You get general store people. With not only corporate sector booming, you also have Aurora fueled tourist economy where people come all across the Settled Systems to enjoy some legal drugs.

    5) Again, people won't be commuting from other star systems for work for fucks sake

    Is this too complicated? Do I need to simplify it further? Drugs make money. That simple enough?
     
    Mandemon said:
    Okay, let me try to twist this from iron bar for you.

    1) Neon is founded as simple fishing rig. Seeing how it's far away from everything, naturally it develops into company town, where people are born, work and die. People don't commute from other star systems, they are going to live on the rig. So businesses catering to fishery workers forms.

    2) Aurora is discovered. Since this is the only source of it, it quickly becomes a very profitable business. Night clubs are founded where Aurora can be legally enjoyed. If you want to imagine this in real life, imagine that a nation designated a single city as "pot capital", place where marijuana is legal. I trust you can imagine business that would very quickly grow there.

    3) With tourism as increasing business, Bayou creates Trade Tower to invite other corporations in, promising them freedom from regulations. Considering that, at the time, your option was UC or bust, a lot of corporations pick this option. Most notably, Ruyjin who go so far as to build Ruyjin Tower to serve as their conglomerate HQ.

    4) With corporations moving to Neon, their employees follow them. Once again, people are not going to commute from other star system. So businesses catering to those people arrive to make money. GalBank follows the follow. Terrabrew brings not!coffee to all those office workers. You get general store people. With not only corporate sector booming, you also have Aurora fueled tourist economy where people come all across the Settled Systems to enjoy some legal drugs.

    5) Again, people won't be commuting from other star systems for work for fucks sake

    Is this too complicated? Do I need to simplify it further? Drugs make money. That simple enough?
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    It's simple, but it's nonsense.

    Step 1 works, of course.

    Step 2 doesn't work unless we throw away your key repeated note that people won't commute across star systems. If it's too far to travel for work, it's too far to travel frequently for drugs. If you can only take Aurora there, it simply won't be able to take off because most people can't do that regularly. If you export Aurora so they can take it at home (legal or not), most people will never bother to go to Neon for it.

    Step 3 and 4 make 'corporations' something that doesn't make sense. Corporations are abstract entities. What parts do they move to Neon, and for what reason? In the real world, corporations very often site their operations in places where the people they want to hire already are, which wouldn't have been Neon. (Once they've established those operations it becomes a spiral where the relevant workers move to where the work is and similar work moves to where the workers are, but launching your business in a way that requires all your hires to relocate is rough going.) Did they destroy or physically move all their productive capital somehow? That's extremely unusual. Also, moving your headquarters to Flag Of Convenience doesn't do anything to protect your actual money-making firms from the rules of wherever they need to be to make money.
     
    Aineko said:
    Step 2 doesn't work unless we throw away your key repeated note that people won't commute across star systems. If it's too far to travel for work, it's too far to travel frequently for drugs. If you can only take Aurora there, it simply won't be able to take off because most people can't do that regularly. If you export Aurora so they can take it at home (legal or not), most people will never bother to go to Neon for it.
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    Of course they don't rely on same people coming regularly. Just like people don't regularly take trips off country, but there are enough new people every year to keep things float. Also, again, Aurora is illegal elsewhere. How many are going to risk legal trouble when they can take a legal trip to enjoy it legally, especially since Aurora doesn't seem to have have addiction rate to begin with?

    How the hell do people go "Nah, it is impossible for tourism to happen for Neon" and then go "Yeah, Paradiso makes 100% sense!"

    Aineko said:
    Step 3 and 4 make 'corporations' something that doesn't make sense. Corporations are abstract entities. What parts do they move to Neon, and for what reason?
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    Their HQs and R&D. Just like Ryujin did, how Stroud-Eklund did, and so forth. There are multiple companies there, all being able to work on things without UC or Akila City breathing down their necks. You might have noticed, but Akila City doesn't really have big corporate in it.

    Again, remember that this happening when Settled Systems is still finding its feet, people are trying new things.

    Hell, let me ask you this: how do you think corporations in real life move their businesses?
     
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