Could a Carthaginian Ship have ever reached the Americas?
- Thread starter AwanRiel
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Possible yes, though highly unlikely. The galleys we normally associate with mediterranean cultures are generally very unsuited for the rougher sees of the atlantic and I am unsure if the typical trading boats would have fared much better. That said there is the famous Heyerdahl crossing with Ra II showcasing that the technology for ocean crossing could have existed and from what I understand the Carthaginians were actually somewhat ahead when it came to navigation by stars and the like as well as had some experience with the atlantic due to their trading network compared to most of their neighbours.
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- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
The thing is: Even just in the relatively calm and safe Mediterranean, the Carthaginian ships were coast huggers. Unlike the Greeks, they did pass beyond the Pillars of Heracles, i.e. the Strait of Gibraltar, but even then they kept on hugging the coasts and didn't travel further than Britain for a rare visit to the Scilly Islands and their copper deposits, or to Morocco southwards.
But if you don't even cross into just the Mediterranean high sea, except for short hops like Tunisia - Sicily, why in Baal's name would you try to cross the Atlantic? Forget trying to run before you can walk, that's like trying to run in the Olympics before you can crawl.
As Erandil notes, it has been proven that it is physically possible for such ships to make it across the Atlantic, but that would still be lucky chance, basically. And in any case there would be no incentive for a conscious attempt at such an ocean crossing - not before, once again, Carthaginian ships would use just the Mediterranean high sea. And any vessel stranded at the Atlantic high sea by a storm or whatever would try to get back eastwards ASAP. Even if by some completely unlikely stroke of luck some ship did end up in the Americas, you still couldn't build up a reliable shipping route.
But if you don't even cross into just the Mediterranean high sea, except for short hops like Tunisia - Sicily, why in Baal's name would you try to cross the Atlantic? Forget trying to run before you can walk, that's like trying to run in the Olympics before you can crawl.
As Erandil notes, it has been proven that it is physically possible for such ships to make it across the Atlantic, but that would still be lucky chance, basically. And in any case there would be no incentive for a conscious attempt at such an ocean crossing - not before, once again, Carthaginian ships would use just the Mediterranean high sea. And any vessel stranded at the Atlantic high sea by a storm or whatever would try to get back eastwards ASAP. Even if by some completely unlikely stroke of luck some ship did end up in the Americas, you still couldn't build up a reliable shipping route.
I mean there is the case/legend of that Mali king sending two thousand ships (and himself) towards the america's despite suffering from very much the same issues so I would be careful about saying stuff like it being impossible that somebody would try something like that since somebody was insane enough to do so and convince a lot of people to go along with the idea. And we also know that the Canary islands were known and reachable by somewhat contemporary people, indeed it seems somwhat likely that the Phoenicians were the first to settle them, so again some degree of experience in the rougher seas of the Atlantic seems to have existed. And I thought that the Carthaginian/Phoenicians were actually quite skilled in navigating the Mediterranean high sea and crossed it semi regularly. I do agree though that any regular contact is more or less impossible.
Actually, while looking for more information about the navigation skills of the Carthaginian I stumbled across the "Phoenicians Before Columbus Expedition" which actually set out to answer pretty much exactly this question and managed to successfully cross the Atlantic. (Though information about the whole thing seems quite lacking, at least in regards of some quick googling, so no idea how rigorous they followed the archaeological data).
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Well, once again, that falls under "physically possible", which is not the same at all than "feasible" or "plausible".
And I thought that while the Phoenicians were superior navigators to the Greeks, going beyond the Med and all, inside the Med the seafaring of both was rather similar. I may be mistaken, though.
Now, as for the Canary Islands, that would be among those "short hops". Unfortunately, unlike the Norse, the Carthaginians wouldn't have a convenient chain of islands to use for island hopping. And as for legends, Pliny also mentions Hanno circumnavigated all of Africa, but that's most certainly made up. He probably didn't come beyond the Gabon, if at all. Not everything that has been written down in ancient times is fact...
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- Brazil
The legendary trip of Abu Bakr probably never happened and is speculated to be a cover story for Musa's usurping the previous Mansa Qu, as the story is absent of most Malian sources (notably the Epic of Sundhiarta) and was more of a hearsay by Mamluk scribe al-Umari with members (but not the king himself) of the Malian entourage in Egypt. So, not a good historical precedent.
That is certainly a possibility but I don't think it overall matters all that much for the point that I was trying to make since I think that even if this was some kind of cover story it proves that the idea existed and was viewed as realistic enough to function as such. I am not trying to argue that it happened or that such an action would be very likely but I think that we we know is more than enough to for example make for a good foundation for a alternative history story or something like that.
Now that's an interesting thought..
Lets take a step further
Carthagian crossing the Atlantic (perhaps the last ships survivors of the Punic War, chased by the Genocidal Romans and escorted by the Last War Galley ), creates a colony (or colonies) and worship their gods. Along with that god as well.
It's a shame the Aztec only came much later, i would find their theological discussion on sacrifices most interesting.
Lets take a step further
Carthagian crossing the Atlantic (perhaps the last ships survivors of the Punic War, chased by the Genocidal Romans and escorted by the Last War Galley ), creates a colony (or colonies) and worship their gods. Along with that god as well.
It's a shame the Aztec only came much later, i would find their theological discussion on sacrifices most interesting.
- Location
- Beyond Bojador, and therefore Beyond Pain
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- She/Hers
The most likely process would be for a Carthaginian ship going out to sea as a matter of necessity while rounding Cape Bojador on the West African coast would be driven southwest toward Brasil near the mouth of the Amazon by accident.
Im actually playing a game of this via the Extended TL Mod for EU4. And Thats the exact scenario I was thinking of doing a TL for. Thanks to being in quarantine, I've got plenty of time to research and build a TL.
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- Beyond Bojador, and therefore Beyond Pain
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The story does have detailed descriptions of the astronomical and navigational features of a trip up the African coast from south to north, so I don't rule out the circumnavigation. The only things stopping it are the Skeleton Coast and rounding the Cape of Good Hope, really, and I'm not sure either one are truly that much greater of an obstacle for ancient mariners than Bojador.
Also, it's only about 2,220km from the Cape Verdes to the Fernando de Noronha archipelago on a direct line. That's only twice as long as the normal Norse leg from Iceland to Greenland (also on the direct line, not distance actually traveled), so we are not talking about orders of magnitude of additional difficulty.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
If Namibia and South Africa were right next to Carthage? Probably not an insurmountable barrier, no. But being as they literally thousands of kilometres away, that's another thing entirely. Sufficiently stocked up and equipped expeditions can pass through this barrier, but where would they stock up so far from home?
Especially since with their primitive sailing techniques and a circumnavigation requiring pasisng the horse latitudes, they would have to rely on rowing power.
That archipelago is tiny. If you go from Iceland in a northwesterly direction, you will eventually hit Greenland. With Fernando de Noronha that would be an utter stroke of luck, especially after such a distance. Especially once again with the problem of the horse latitudes. Plus, the Norse were very much used to crossing rough high seas in their longboats. They regularly had in the North Sea. The Carthaginians, by contrast, mostly coastal hugged the relatively calm Mediterranean Sea. Frankly, the Norse were better seafarers.
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- Beyond Bojador, and therefore Beyond Pain
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You're right that Fernando do Noronha is not really important in the scheme of things, but consider the map of the winds and the currents overlaid:
If you go out to sea, it's actually really easy to just keep going until you reach Brasil, though you will be turned back to the North and arrive somewhere off the coast of the Amazon.
By the way, this is also related to the argument about the circumnavigation of Africa, because as you can see, it's at Cape Bojador around the south Moroccan coast that the wind begins to blow steadily and continuously from the northeast, which no mariner of the ancient world would be used to. The trick to set a good course south of Bojador is to stand out to sea. Of course, Hanno the Navigator likely used oarsmen to get past Bojador, but the return would be a formidable undertaking. I acknowledge that the equatorial band south of the Biafra Bight would also be a rather formidable undertaking, but I would point out that we at least have a reasonable amount of evidence that the Phoenicians sailed to Cornwall and the tin mines, and probably did it with a direct crossing of the Bay of Biscay from Galicia.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Well, here is an older article about a book telling just that:
www.welt.de
(in German only).
Before I had read about Phoenician coins found in America. Also that article states, that the Carthagians were no coast hugger but drove on the open Ocean.
Having said this, I think, it's very possible, the Carthagians did sail the open seas as well. Did they come to America? IMO likely. But they were no more than a few ships making this turn. And even fewer to return. In no way it seems to have greatly impressed one side or the other.
But even that MIGHT be wrong. We might find some evidence and history has to be rewritten.
Entdeckungen: Schon Phönizier konnten Kurs auf Amerika nehmen - WELT
Karthager und Kelten auf der Flucht vor Rom: Das neue Buch von Hans Giffhorn bringt Bewegung in die Diskussion, wer schon vor Kolumbus über den Atlantik fuhr und die Neue Welt erreichte.
(in German only).
Before I had read about Phoenician coins found in America. Also that article states, that the Carthagians were no coast hugger but drove on the open Ocean.
Having said this, I think, it's very possible, the Carthagians did sail the open seas as well. Did they come to America? IMO likely. But they were no more than a few ships making this turn. And even fewer to return. In no way it seems to have greatly impressed one side or the other.
But even that MIGHT be wrong. We might find some evidence and history has to be rewritten.
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- Beyond Bojador, and therefore Beyond Pain
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It's unlikely any returned. The most plausible means is essentially what happened to multiple Japanese mariners before the 19th century--their ship was dismasted but remained afloat and drifted across the Atlantic to the vicinity of the mouths of the Amazon, where the survivors were taken in and/or enslaved by locals. We know that happened multiple times to Japanese fishermen whose boats were dismasted in storms--they caught rainwater and hung nets from the sides to stay alive, and drifted with the current until driven against the shore of the Pacific Northwest.
We have much, much stronger evidence for the Polynesians trading to at least a limited extent with South America, of course.
We have much, much stronger evidence for the Polynesians trading to at least a limited extent with South America, of course.
- Location
- Patriarchova
There is absolutely no evidence that the Carthaginians practiced mass human sacrifice on anything close to Mesoamerican levels. It certainly wasn't a defining element of their culture. And even if it was, the form that their sacrificial rites took has nothing to do with the Aztec ones.
Two thousand years later, and the Roman propaganda still hasn't gone away.
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There is evidence that the Carthaginians sacrificed babies, but then the Greeks and Romans also regularly killed babies (or at least abandoned them to die, which is basically the same thing most of the time). Killing babies was basically pre-Christian Mediterranean society's equivalent of birth control. To me it looks like the Carthaginians and the Greeks and Romans basically just chose different window-dressing for the practice; the Carthaginians dressed it up as religious sacrifice, the Greeks and Romans preferred abandonment so there was a fig leaf of a chance that somebody would rescue and adopt the baby.There is absolutely no evidence that the Carthaginians practiced mass human sacrifice on anything close to Mesoamerican levels. It certainly wasn't a defining element of their culture. And even if it was, the form that their sacrificial rites took has nothing to do with the Aztec ones.
Two thousand years later, and the Roman propaganda still hasn't gone away.
The Carthaginians weren't on the level of the Aztecs, no; most societies that practiced human sacrifice weren't on the level of the Aztecs, in the same way that most racist societies weren't on the level of the Nazis. I see a significant parallel between the Aztecs and the Nazis: they both took a pre-existing nasty part of their region's culture, doubled down on it in more-or-less the most horrific possible way, and built an entire imperialist ideology and state apparatus around it. I suspect pre-Columbian American societies got an undeserved bad reputation in history by their association with the Aztecs; it was like if aliens conquered a Nazi victory timeline Earth in the 1950s and hundreds of years later the first thing that would pop into people's most minds when you talked about pre-conquest human culture was "I've heard about this very nasty empire of genocidal racist eugenicists that was in the process of conquering the planet when we invaded!"
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I know (though the parallels with Greco-Roman infanticide hadn't occurred to me). My point is that from what we can tell, Carthaginian human sacrifice was pretty much average for the Semites and many neighboring peoples of the time. More "a handful of victims once or twice a year" type of deal than any kind of mass slaughter.
Back on topic, it's pretty much as @Susano said. Phoenician ships were excellent in their intended role, but that role had little to do with the open ocean.
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- Beyond Bojador, and therefore Beyond Pain
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@Leila Hann Phoenician ships on the open ocean are going to be impacted by a different roll period and a different wave period. The plausible means of failure is the working open of seams. Wind conditions if anything are steadier on the open ocean. I am unconvinced this is a serious impediment to a Phoenician ship in good weather.
The real problem is that the lack of knowledge means holding course effectively against wind and tide is immensely difficult, because routes south of Bojador are not direct under sail.
The real problem is that the lack of knowledge means holding course effectively against wind and tide is immensely difficult, because routes south of Bojador are not direct under sail.
The problem is that a demasted Phoenician ship just turns into a very large row boat. A boat that can still just row in the general direction east. So it is much harder for a phoenician ship to be lost upon the winds and currents then later ships that weren't human powered any time the wind wasn't right. Also that large crew makes planed trips into deep water by an insane person much harder. Once the rowers start getting hungry and food is dwindling they have the option to just bash the captain's skull in and turn right around. And they are going to have food issues as those ships weren't exactly built with keeping enough food an water for a full crew for months.
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- Beyond Bojador, and therefore Beyond Pain
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I'm not a believer in a Phoenician discovery of the Americas. I just think it's being opposed for the wrong reasons.
So, basically, yes- a Carthaginian ship could have made it to the Americas by hilariously lucky accident. It just doesn't matter, because not only would they need an equally lucky accident to make it back... the world impact is nil without the seafaring technology to do it all over again, intentionally.
Well if they brought with them a cross section of old world diseases there might have been an effect. The amazon had villages and the like to let epidemics spread and there were trade links from it to the Andes and Caribbean. So after a 1000 years of genetic drift when some dude comes to the new world and well it won't be great for the Americans but it will be equally as bad for the Europeans as both now have a versions pandemics that neither has any real defense for. That kind of puts a stop to the mass colonization we saw in our timeline. But well not exactly the kind of things people imagine when they think of a bunch of people making it to the new world early.
How many of those uniquely dangerous old world diseases were even around before 146 BC? The eastern hemisphere's advantages in disease creation- domesticated animals, big cities, dense trade routes- took a while to get rolling.
And even then, it'd have to be something that that specific Carthaginian ship had on board. With Columbus it was a lot more people, a lot later, and a lot more times.