Remove ads

Can it really be we don't have an eighty-six thread?

BiopunkOtrera

BiopunkOtrera

Traitor to her Class
Councillor
Pronouns
She/Her


Can it really be that we don't have a thread on one of the best mecha shows out at the moment and maybe ever? I just caught up to episode 17 and now I find there's no discussion thread on it? This is poor.

For those of you who don't know it, Eight-Six is a show about a war fought against a set of out-of-control autonomous weapon systems unleashed by the not-German empire to try to fend off (Social Democratic) Revolution. This has got so out of control that wave after wave of these devices are attacking everyone around them. The Republic of San Magnolia uses its own autonomous weapons to fight them off--

Or do they? In fact, the Republic is actually using weapons piloted by socially undesirable elements (the inhabitants of the so called 86th district) to fight the murder machines.

86 remains one of the best studies of racism, if racism from the perspective mostly of the oppressor, I've ever seen, and also a great look at how automation is usually in fact just a disguise for labour. I really can't recommend it highly enough.
 
Last edited:
I really enjoy the show, and I'm most of the way through the light novels.

The contrast between the straight up oppression and the infantilizing pity of later portions is interesting, but I think at times it feels like it leans into both-siding how both can be equally bad. And I'm sorta scratching my head at how framing the points "Child soldiers are bad, actually" and "Genocide? More like awesomecide!" get treated as equally bad, but from different directions.

Though it is pretty on point that some of the people loudly yelling how much they support those poor oppressed folk can't be bothered to actually learn about or speak with them on anything but the yeller's terms.
 
FuriousFerret said:
I really enjoy the show, and I'm most of the way through the light novels.

The contrast between the straight up oppression and the infantilizing pity of later portions is interesting, but I think at times it feels like it leans into both-siding how both can be equally bad. And I'm sorta scratching my head at how framing the points "Child soldiers are bad, actually" and "Genocide? More like awesomecide!" get treated as equally bad, but from different directions.

Though it is pretty on point that some of the people loudly yelling how much they support those poor oppressed folk can't be bothered to actually learn about or speak with them on anything but the yeller's terms.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean, I think it's basically that they don't really see the 86 as human. Like, they're not people, they're the symbols of people. And they are, when it comes down to it, still willing to sacrifice them.
 
FBH said:
I mean, I think it's basically that they don't really see the 86 as human. Like, they're not people, they're the symbols of people. And they are, when it comes down to it, still willing to sacrifice them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's an interesting point and does make the comparison make more sense. I agree with them not being treated like individual people. Yet, to me it seemed more like that the emphasis was on how despite the civilians and such want to treat them well they're approaching it in a way that is... ignorant I guess? Like sort of just expecting them to be normal (for their culture's sense of normalcy, anyways) and then whenever the fact that they're not there's pushback. It does tie-in with the theme of hypocrisy that shows up a lot, but I guess emotionally I just have a hard time equating it.

I guess I just don't see "Well meaning asshole" as being on the same level of "Lol, your parents died so imma make you fight now" if that makes sense? They're both terrible but I guess my issue is that the narrative treats as a 2 sides of the same coin, and to me its more of a sliding scale of terrible. Not a terribly big issue, but just what comes up after thinking about the story and a bit more of a response than the OST is amazing and I really enjoyed the fighting scenes.

I will say the two sequences that were most memorable to me were the ending of EP 9. The combination of more details on the members and recontextualizing some of the prior events really hit hard, but that could just be that Fido is best boi. The most visceral reaction for me was the conversation where the life style of the 85 districts was shown while the description of the horrors was spoken. Something about the guts falling out and the egg being cut over just really stuck with me.

I genuinely enjoy the show and heartily recommend it, and tbh just sort of glad to chat about it since sadly my RL friends passed on it.
 
FuriousFerret said:
That's an interesting point and does make the comparison make more sense. I agree with them not being treated like individual people. Yet, to me it seemed more like that the emphasis was on how despite the civilians and such want to treat them well they're approaching it in a way that is... ignorant I guess? Like sort of just expecting them to be normal (for their culture's sense of normalcy, anyways) and then whenever the fact that they're not there's pushback. It does tie-in with the theme of hypocrisy that shows up a lot, but I guess emotionally I just have a hard time equating it.

I guess I just don't see "Well meaning asshole" as being on the same level of "Lol, your parents died so imma make you fight now" if that makes sense? They're both terrible but I guess my issue is that the narrative treats as a 2 sides of the same coin, and to me its more of a sliding scale of terrible. Not a terribly big issue, but just what comes up after thinking about the story and a bit more of a response than the OST is amazing and I really enjoyed the fighting scenes.

I will say the two sequences that were most memorable to me were the ending of EP 9. The combination of more details on the members and recontextualizing some of the prior events really hit hard, but that could just be that Fido is best boi. The most visceral reaction for me was the conversation where the life style of the 85 districts was shown while the description of the horrors was spoken. Something about the guts falling out and the egg being cut over just really stuck with me.

I genuinely enjoy the show and heartily recommend it, and tbh just sort of glad to chat about it since sadly my RL friends passed on it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean, I'm not sure if they really draw equivilence either though. I haven't read the LNs beyond the first, but like, they're much more sanguine about helping the Federation than they are the Republic. They're not calling the Republic "White Pigs" etc. It seems more like they're just mad because the Republic is basically expecting them to sit in some comfortable place and die when the Legion finally rolls over them rather than actually use their skills to survive. Rather than actually caring about what the crew want, they rather want them to fit in with what the Federation thinks is right and just.

Like, again, 86 is trying to highlight different forms of destructive behavior by a group in power against a group out of power.
 
I wasn't initially all that enthusiastic about 86 but its rapidly become one of my favorite anime series. I haven't read the novels yet but they're on my Christmas wish list. On that note, the series reminds me that there was a time when I thought being based on a light novel increased the chance that a series would be good.

I do think there's some legitimacy to the criticism that Lena and Shin aren't the most immediately compelling deuteragonists. But like the series itself the two of them have really grown on me. While I generally preferred Spearhead's side of the first cour's story to Lena's, I liked that she had to face her own naivety and complicity. (Though given the series' themes I feel like her being the most prominent character in the series' merchandising feels a bit awkward...)

Anyway I really like the series. It's quite clear that a lot of effort went into it, from the writing to the direction to the animation and sound work. It's probably my favorite anime of the last five years (the closest competition I can think of at the moment is the anime adaptation of Golden Kamuy).

@FBH Have you thought about including the trailer in your OP for people who aren't familiar with the series? IMO the trailer for the first cour is pretty good.
 
Last edited:
A legitimately really good light novel that is being done incredible justice by this adaptation. The production is starting to push up against its ambitions in this cour, but even that can't take the gloss off. A remarkable showing for Ishii Toshimasa, given it's his first time in the director's chair on a TV series.
 
FuriousFerret said:
That's an interesting point and does make the comparison make more sense. I agree with them not being treated like individual people. Yet, to me it seemed more like that the emphasis was on how despite the civilians and such want to treat them well they're approaching it in a way that is... ignorant I guess? Like sort of just expecting them to be normal (for their culture's sense of normalcy, anyways) and then whenever the fact that they're not there's pushback. It does tie-in with the theme of hypocrisy that shows up a lot, but I guess emotionally I just have a hard time equating it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

FBH said:
I mean, I'm not sure if they really draw equivilence either though. I haven't read the LNs beyond the first, but like, they're much more sanguine about helping the Federation than they are the Republic. They're not calling the Republic "White Pigs" etc. It seems more like they're just mad because the Republic is basically expecting them to sit in some comfortable place and die when the Legion finally rolls over them rather than actually use their skills to survive. Rather than actually caring about what the crew want, they rather want them to fit in with what the Federation thinks is right and just.

Like, again, 86 is trying to highlight different forms of destructive behavior by a group in power against a group out of power.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This is really what's complicated for me to parse about what the series is saying in Giad. In Season One I think it's pretty clear the 86 and Spearhead are being exploited by their society, the methods are brute force and the exploitation is their violent deaths. We have good side and bad side.

In the Federacy we have this early 'benevolent discrimination' or whatever you want to call it where the Giadans want to stop the 86 from fighting again. This is shown as suffocating and the team decide that for them self determination is going back to the battlefield. The Federacy are at pains to give them outs and let them know they can leave at any time, which actively insults them. Considering how seriously that was treated in the early season I don't know how we can see the Federacy as exploiting the 86 in any parallel to the Republic.

If there's any particular meaning to the Federacy beyond being a canvas for the Spearhead survivors to open up and develop for a time it really does just seem to be that choice. In Season One there was a bit of a thing about the 86 morally 'choosing' to fight while the Alba lived in their carefree wonderland but the alternative was getting shot by an Alba guard. Here they had the choice to live comfortable lives and let others do the fighting for them. Otherwise it seems like an interesting mixed bag. I love the series but I don't see a much deeper message to the other little rivalries, friendships and plot revelations we've seen.
 
JevvyPython said:
This is really what's complicated for me to parse about what the series is saying in Giad. In Season One I think it's pretty clear the 86 and Spearhead are being exploited by their society, the methods are brute force and the exploitation is their violent deaths. We have good side and bad side.

In the Federacy we have this early 'benevolent discrimination' or whatever you want to call it where the Giadans want to stop the 86 from fighting again. This is shown as suffocating and the team decide that for them self determination is going back to the battlefield. The Federacy are at pains to give them outs and let them know they can leave at any time, which actively insults them. Considering how seriously that was treated in the early season I don't know how we can see the Federacy as exploiting the 86 in any parallel to the Republic.

If there's any particular meaning to the Federacy beyond being a canvas for the Spearhead survivors to open up and develop for a time it really does just seem to be that choice. In Season One there was a bit of a thing about the 86 morally 'choosing' to fight while the Alba lived in their carefree wonderland but the alternative was getting shot by an Alba guard. Here they had the choice to live comfortable lives and let others do the fighting for them. Otherwise it seems like an interesting mixed bag. I love the series but I don't see a much deeper message to the other little rivalries, friendships and plot revelations we've seen.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think the thing with the Federation is that the choice they're really offering is "die in the cockpit of a combat robot, or die when the Legion overrun us and kill you in your safe never never land." The other big theme of 86 is that the bloody nastiness of the world is out there whether you acknowledge it or not. It doesn't matter if you turn your face away from it like the Republic or not. The Legion is still there (as climate change and the like are still there in our world.) So the kind of cloying moralism of the Federation is also toxic in that they're allowing their qualms to get in the way of saving the world.
 
FBH said:
86 remains one of the best studies of racism, if racism from the perspective mostly of the oppressor, I've ever seen
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Is it, though?

Just up front, I think the show is very good, and I'm an idiot about a lot of... 'film craft' for lack of a better term, but even I can tell this director is knocking it out of the goddamn park with this show. Seriously, that briefing scene from last episode was phenomenal. But the race stuff just doesn't really land for me.

The small-scale stuff seems mostly fine. Lena's arc vis-a-vis being accepted by Spearhead being the foremost example, but it's all built on larger setting and story premise scale stuff that all just seems... kinda nonsense. The pieces don't fit. I think I saw that Crunchyroll has a dub started for this, so maybe I'll go back and rewatch the first part to collect my thoughts on more of the specific gripes I have...
 
SerGregness said:
Is it, though?

Just up front, I think the show is very good, and I'm an idiot about a lot of... 'film craft' for lack of a better term, but even I can tell this director is knocking it out of the goddamn park with this show. Seriously, that briefing scene from last episode was phenomenal. But the race stuff just doesn't really land for me.

The small-scale stuff seems mostly fine. Lena's arc vis-a-vis being accepted by Spearhead being the foremost example, but it's all built on larger setting and story premise scale stuff that all just seems... kinda nonsense. The pieces don't fit. I think I saw that Crunchyroll has a dub started for this, so maybe I'll go back and rewatch the first part to collect my thoughts on more of the specific gripes I have...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I mean, it's allegorical in as much as you wouldn't generally want to treat the people fighting for you like dirt, because they'd run away, or lose moral, or let a Legion attack in and then ride it into your city. But beyond the premise of fighting, I think it's pretty well realized. What exactly do you find nonsensical?
 
There's apparently been a couple translation issues with some of Frederica's dialogue (she doesn't claim to have personally ordered the Legion invasion, and her use of a certain infamous slogan may also be due to translation) so it's possible there's some nuance lost in the scenes explaining why the 86 don't turn on the Republic or stand aside and just let the Legion through. It's also probable that some things are more clear in the original. It's my understanding that in the novels the 86 are rotated between units every six months to prevent rebellions from forming, and I think I also read that they excuse given for interring them was that they might collaborate with foreign enemies.

One thing I personally found inconsistent was Kujo keeping a countdown to the end of his military service when its an open secret that the Alba have no intention of actually letting any 86 complete their service and regain their citizenship.

In terms of rationalizations, I'll note that the Legion doesn't make a distinction between Alba and 86 though some of Shin's dialogue suggests that there aren't very many 86 left in the camps...
 
Darthtabby said:
she doesn't claim to have personally ordered the Legion invasion
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Frederica is very young. When Ernst says she is the last Empress of Giad that is very literal. She was all that was left, so she was a younger child than she already is. However it is the case that she feels responsible because it was her authority that was used to order the Legion around, and her family that created them, and she was the reason that Kiri went off the rails.

Darthtabby said:
One thing I personally found inconsistent was Kujo keeping a countdown to the end of his military service when its an open secret that the Alba have no intention of actually letting any 86 complete their service and regain their citizenship.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I assume he was just being funny about it.
 
Ford Prefect said:
Frederica is very young. When Ernst says she is the last Empress of Giad that is very literal. She was all that was left, so she was a younger child than she already is. However it is the case that she feels responsible because it was her authority that was used to order the Legion around, and her family that created them, and she was the reason that Kiri went off the rails.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's more or less my understanding at this point. But the translation did cause confusion for some viewers, perhaps because of how her pronouncement is treated like a big reveal. Anyway I mainly brought it up as an example of something that got confused in translation because I wonder if other things (most particularly the 86's motivation for continuing to fight) might have been lost/confused in translation.

Do we really need spoiler tags for events that the anime covered several episodes ago?
 
I've been enjoying 86 thus far, personally, and ended up buying the first two LN as a result of the stunning adaption. Haven't actually read the second yet, admittedly, but the show's been quite gripping in both its character moments and action scenes. I am a bit concerned about how the anime took a week off for a flashback scene, though - that's generally a sign of troubled productions.
 
This has kind of bugged me for a while but why does anyone in this setting use small arms? Every Legion unit we see is a tank. It won't work. When Spearhead were using them I thought it was just a bad joke by the Alba but it keeps happening. Shouldn't the basic infantry weapon be a rocket launcher of some kind?

Darthtabby said:
There's apparently been a couple translation issues with some of Frederica's dialogue (she doesn't claim to have personally ordered the Legion invasion, and her use of a certain infamous slogan may also be due to translation) so it's possible there's some nuance lost in the scenes explaining why the 86 don't turn on the Republic or stand aside and just let the Legion through. It's also probable that some things are more clear in the original. It's my understanding that in the novels the 86 are rotated between units every six months to prevent rebellions from forming, and I think I also read that they excuse given for interring them was that they might collaborate with foreign enemies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I might be projecting this onto the show myself (the Alba military mostly seem too dumb to bother) but the impression I got from the show was that despite giving no fucks about the genocidal AI army at the door the Alba actually had a decently robust system to suppress an 86 slave revolt. The entire set up they give Spearhead Unit is terrible for it's own reasons (it is a suicide detail after all) but I don't think that was the only reason. The base is kept deliberately low on supplies (and all the supply officers we see are Alba) so if they did revolt they couldn't fight for more than a few days. All communications out of the unit go through the Alba command center and an Alba officer so they can't collude with neighboring 86. All of their tanks are tracked by the Albish C&C system, so the Republic would have a huge information advantage and we shouldn't forget the massive artillery units the Albish have. Lena has to coerce them to get them to fire on the Legion to help the 86 but I'm sure they'd be happy to blow up any rebelling processors. (Which is likely the main reason they exist. If an 86 unit revolts destroy their base and the bases nearby that might help them, if they can't just track their IFFs to just kill their individual Juggarnauts.)

Then we see there are Alba rear line MP types. The Spearhead members are all brought to the units by Alba guards in that flashback. Someone must have been keeping all the 86 in the concentration camps under guard, especially considering how quickly they intervened when Shin's brother snapped and started to strangle him. I'd expect there are at least a couple of Alba MP armored units around just in case an 86 unit did try to stage a revolt. With all the advantages they'd have it would probably only need to be a small fraction of the total number of 86 units.

Plus this is basically Skynet they're dealing with. If defection was an option I imagine the 86 would have flipped a very, very, long time ago.
 
Last edited:
FuriousFerret said:
I guess I just don't see "Well meaning asshole" as being on the same level of "Lol, your parents died so imma make you fight now" if that makes sense? They're both terrible but I guess my issue is that the narrative treats as a 2 sides of the same coin, and to me its more of a sliding scale of terrible. Not a terribly big issue, but just what comes up after thinking about the story and a bit more of a response than the OST is amazing and I really enjoyed the fighting scenes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is kind of spoilers but the LN addresses this direct issue in later novels.
 
JevvyPython said:
This has kind of bugged me for a while but why does anyone in this setting use small arms? Every Legion unit we see is a tank. It won't work. When Spearhead were using them I thought it was just a bad joke by the Alba but it keeps happening. Shouldn't the basic infantry weapon be a rocket launcher of some kind?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The main arm for Giad's infantry when deployed against the Legion is an anti-materiel rifle. You can see them in the defensive position in the episode before last. Small arms are just back-up, though there are some small Legion that are susceptible to them, mainly the human mines.

Also just generally rocket launchers are large and heavy. There's no way you could keep one in the cockpit of a feldreß, with any amount of capacity to reload. The rifles they carry are really just back-up weapons.
 
JevvyPython said:
This has kind of bugged me for a while but why does anyone in this setting use small arms? Every Legion unit we see is a tank. It won't work. When Spearhead were using them I thought it was just a bad joke by the Alba but it keeps happening. Shouldn't the basic infantry weapon be a rocket launcher of some kind?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

When we see the Federacy Infantry in Ep 16 they seem to be armed with anti-tank rifles on the front, which makes sense, and we see some sort of small machine gun on a Reginleif kill smaller Legion. It's possible that some of the smallest forms are weak enough for small arms to kill them, or at least mission/mobility kill them.
 
Just finished episode 7. Haven't actually read the thread just in case, will return later. Wanted to make sure to get down the main thought I have at this point: when is Lena going to walk away from Omelas?

Back to the marathon. Because holy crap this show is good.
 
JevvyPython said:
This has kind of bugged me for a while but why does anyone in this setting use small arms? Every Legion unit we see is a tank. It won't work. When Spearhead were using them I thought it was just a bad joke by the Alba but it keeps happening. Shouldn't the basic infantry weapon be a rocket launcher of some kind?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The self propelled mines can be taken down by small arms and lighter scout type units are vulnerable to machine gun fire. Past that these are backup weapons that need to fit in a cockpit and are probably issued at least partly for morale purposes.

Also while no one wants to talk about it, recall what Shin actually uses his pistol for. Everyone besides the Republic is aware the Legion harvests brains.
 
Last edited:
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top