Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Jump Fiat made it so that Parahuman powers = Magical effects. So technically he was always right.

Though having Apeiron give a lecture about different types of powers and mentioning that Parahuman derived abilities come from the indirect manipulation of absurd amounts of magical energies would be a bit of a trip.

Of course people would call that crazy, but then Joe mentions that he can do just about any of the stereotypical fantasy reality warping with no obvious technological aids, then teach others with no shard powers to do the same thing...

Then there comes the argument that if Apeiron wants to call it magic, CAN you really stop him??

That kinda reminds me of this one fic where Colin of all people reasoned that since they don't really understand from where powers come from, how they work, or why are they so varied, then someone saying that what they do is magic may as well be true, so when he was given a magic sword he just went "sure, whatever".

Can't really remember the name of the fic though.
 
You mean…..like a key crest?

Actually I'm not sure if a key crest would work. It should imo but idk
Huh, I was going to point out that Key Crests just moderate energy flow (which lead to negating the spiritual damage and negatives of the Exsphere), not just negate the negatives of any power, but then I realize the Butcher is really freaking close to the nature of an Exsphere. Wow.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure that Joe isn't using any fiat backed scanners.

He only has 1 fiat backed scanner, the scanner from outlaw star. (Maybe star trek had one but I don't recall)

The scanners he's using isn't a fiat backed device, it's a technology that's integrated into his suit.

That's why I think he can easily make city wide scanners
It's the Adventure Time Scanners that Joe's talking about. The physical mechanisms of it are fiat-backed.
Chapter 38: 32 Family Fugue - Preamble Taylor - Addendum Mike
Analysis (Adventure Time) 300:
You have the skill and insight to make powerful analytical tools. Such tools are capable of showing you the physical makeup of the things you come across, detect magic and alert you to hidden doorways.
This was due to the difficulty in properly analyzing both parahuman powers and 'magic' as defined by Apeiron's abilities. Documenting of general effects was possible, but the mechanisms and limitations of the effects at play were often either difficult to quantify or appeared highly variable without adequate explanations. This was the primary source of Survey's operational difficulties before the acquisition of ability 125-B-22-Tri 'Analysis Tools'.

Ability 125-B-22-Tri allowed the production of scanning devices that were able to provide detailed readings of the physical structure of matter and allow the detection of energies behind parahuman powers and magic. The physical mechanism the allowed scanners produced using ability 125-B-22-Tri to function was unknown, and no amount of analysis was able to resolve this matter. It was no small point of contention that Survey was forced to use a persistently unknowable effect to be able to derive information on effects that had previously been elusive.

Before ability 125-B-22-Tri there had been no method of detecting the forces behind either Apeiron's magic or various parahuman abilities. The fact that a mystery was being used to solve another mystery was something Fleet could accept much more easily than Survey. Fleet was able to be satisfied with knowledge of the performance of an element within a system, while Survey was driven to determine the mechanism behind the elements at play. It was a methodology that would allow more detailed analysis than Fleet engaged in, but was also prone to running into dead ends.

And with that I have a question, can Joe make anything that nullifies magic or obtain anything that let him?
We know Talisman Trained and Talisman Adept (Inukami) can purify shaker effects and even seal parahuman powers. Joe also has a chance of rolling Imagine Breaker for Hard Science (Raildex Science). The freebie arcana of Technomancy (Mage: The Awakening) include Prime which allow the manipulation of raw mana so there's potential there. There's also perks like Infusionist (Monster Hunter) which can grant elemental resistances which you could say defensively nulls the effect of certain types of magic used against you. Remember that element can be pretty broad due to all the metaphysics and elemental systems Joe has access to. It's also resistances, plural. There's probably many more especially resulting from gaining those in the Magitech constellation but those are the ones that come to mind.

Didn't Lord say that Joe's passenger is someone post jump who read a bit of worm but has like fanon opinions?
Lord hasn't given any definitive answer on the identity of the passenger, we just know that the passengers identifies as a he, has some degree of agency, might also be the benefactor, and that he has meta-knowledge of Worm, Ward, Wildbow WoG, and part of the Weaver Dice but it's through the perception of the fandom and is conveyed unclearly through emotional reactions.
I'm intentionally not clarifying exactly what Joe's passenger is. At least during the early writing process I generally thought of him as the Jumpchain Benefactor, but I've seen other interpretations that work equally well, particularly the idea of the shard/jumper. A proper answer isn't likely to come until the 10 year or post Scion point. What is clear is that the passenger has knowledge of the Parahumans series and shares the common opinions of the Worm fanbase.

More lateral solutions then perfect fixes, Taylor has support, Danny is more focused, the Undersiders were brought down so they can see how in over their heads they are, Colin is improving but more laterally then forward though, the Wards are now being looked at properly, the New Wave bomb shell has been detonated already so it can be dealt with now, Amy now knows about her father and has Assault for support and her uncle Mike, Weld has been healed.

It's less then perfect fixes that Powerful self inserts do, and feel more realistic so you don't notice them, these are more the first stepping stones to the final solution.
There's also Canary's trial getting the critical look it deserves which means a much fairer trial than canon. The locker incident is now given serious attention and known by and used against Piggot. Vicky also has gone through some character development and is more aware of her behavior. Chris/Kid Win is on track to figuring out his specialization early. Dennis is more of a leader and taking things seriously. Theo is developing a support network due to the gym. Dragon has a path for dealing with her chains. Piggot also has to confront the failings of her department and management style. The ABB are done as a gang. There's of course also the stuff with Aisha.

Also don't forget about the conscripts saved by Apeiron. Actually, on that. @LordRoustabout, did Park Jihoo from Shell 4.8 survive?
 
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There's also Canary's trial getting the critical look it deserves which means a much fairer trial than canon. The locker incident is now given serious attention and known by and used against Piggot. Vicky also has gone through some character development and is more aware of her behavior. Chris/Kid Win is on track to figuring out his specialization early. Dennis is more of a leader and taking things seriously. Theo is developing a support network due to the gym. Dragon has a path for dealing with her chains. Piggot also has to confront the failings of her department and management style. The ABB are done as a gang. There's of course also the stuff with Aisha.
On the subject of Canary's trial, what exactly prompted the critical look? I can't recall a specific catalyst, and it seems like something Dauntless just sort of heard about.
 
There's also Canary's trial getting the critical look it deserves which means a much fairer trial than canon.

On the subject of Canary's trial, what exactly prompted the critical look?

It is talked about in the Chris addendum to Chapter 35. Basically, Watchdog got involved and one of their thinkers looked at it, and they decided that it looks like it may be worse than in canon, because they are saying her powers were effecting more people at her concerts, and a lot of people were exploited. Canary is facing a lot more charges, and is facing Federal charges over it, so typically I'd say she is in worse shape, though considering how poorly done her canon trial was, the increased scrutiny might result in her not ending up Birdcaged. Though it is unclear if the issues like her being unable to hire her own lawyer or make statements on her behalf will be rectified.
 
On the subject of Canary's trial, what exactly prompted the critical look? I can't recall a specific catalyst, and it seems like something Dauntless just sort of heard about.
It is talked about in the Chris addendum to Chapter 35. Basically, Watchdog got involved and one of their thinkers looked at it, and they decided that it looks like it may be worse than in canon, because they are saying her powers were effecting more people at her concerts, and a lot of people were exploited. Canary is facing a lot more charges, and is facing Federal charges over it, so typically I'd say she is in worse shape, though considering how poorly done her canon trial was, the increased scrutiny might result in her not ending up Birdcaged. Though it is unclear if the issues like her being unable to hire her own lawyer or make statements on her behalf will be rectified.
To add on to that, this resulted due to "Watchdog look[ing] into the case when they were doing initial assessments on Apeiron" following the stuff with Amy and the conscripts.

There is no 'worse than canon' for Canary. A drumhead trial to the Birdcage is rock bottom. What she has is a drawn out legal case with multiple levels and a through investigation, along with challenges from third parties at every level. A consequence is she will actually get something approximating a fair trial, just because of the people who are now potentially liable for her actions. Consider the kind of criminal punishments that come with facilitating a Birdcage-worthy villain. Previously her publisher had thrown her under the bus, but now they're set to follow her if they try that. Meanwhile she has no reason to not flip and dump as much as possible on them.
For Canary, the best I can say is she won't be railroaded. Page did throw around an incredibly dangerous power without any real concern or safeguards. If she didn't mess up with her Ex there's the possibility she could have shouted something unfortunate at a packed concert and caused a massacre. The situation only got worse when the full extent of her powers became clear. Her actions did NOT deserve the Birdcage, and she has a very good chance of avoiding that fate here, but she isn't completely blameless. Probably will at least be looking at a felony assault charge (with a parahuman power) and a restrictive parole.
At least there is going to be a proper legal process for Canary. It gives time for people who want to help (Like Dragon) to provide legal support. She'll probably at least avoid the Birdcage while a lot of flack will com down on the people around her.
 
What would be the best, funniest or most awesome matchups of the workshop team vs the Teeth?
I think Tetra vs Hemmoragia would be super hilarious. H uses blood to attack T. It's super ineffective!
 
What would be the best, funniest or most awesome matchups of the workshop team vs the Teeth?
I think Tetra vs Hemmoragia would be super hilarious. H uses blood to attack T. It's super ineffective!
I'd like to see an army of tiny vehicles piloted by Fleet take on Spree.

Honestly, other than Butcher XIV, none of the Teeth seem like they are very strong. Given the powers involved, they would be best when controlling the battlefield with Spree and Vex while Butcher XIV (and to a lesser extent Hemorrhagia) pick off their opponents, with Animos disrupting opponents to open up additional opportunities for attack. Basically everyone in the Celestial Forge has some kind of Mover rating which gets past the battlefield control, and none would be overly affected disrupted by Animos's Trump ability. They should all be able to tank Quarrel's projectiles as well. Besides the challenge of preventing The Butcher from jumping to another host, a fight with the Teeth will be a curbstomp.
 
Lethe knocking out the Butcher with Apeiron tranqs would be funny because of all the other capes' reactions. Before she just recovered Apeiron, now she took down the Butcher with little to no effort. How powerful can Apeiron's team get!?

I'm also worried about negative consequences of Fleet or Survey getting caught in Animos' power negation roar. They have magic built into the very fabric of their being after all. If they get hit it could be bad. Well, Fleet could easily dodge it, but we haven't seen enough mover powers from Survey to know if she could dodge it too.

I also have the mental image of Tybault going full Ares and just casually walking through Vex's blade forcefields as Vex panics as no matter how many more he adds the cat just keeps coming. I don't know if their powers would actually react like that. But it would be epic! Or maybe he destroys all the forecefields with one swing of a life fiber enlarged jagerstock straight out of Kill la Kill.

Oh and Survey could trivially counter the Teeth's strategy of wearing similar costumes. The Adventure Time scanners would point out the capes, and footage of previous fights would identify them easily.
 
It's the Adventure Time Scanners that Joe's talking about. The physical mechanisms of it are fiat-backed.
I knew it was the adventure time scanners, but I didn't know they were black boxed like that in story.

Fair enough.

Also I'm kinda hoping that lord will follow the wog he gave about butcher where the butcher is coming to the bay because she's currently same and doesn't want to go insane.
 
I'm also worried about negative consequences of Fleet or Survey getting caught in Animos' power negation roar. They have magic built into the very fabric of their being after all. If they get hit it could be bad. Well, Fleet could easily dodge it, but we haven't seen enough mover powers from Survey to know if she could dodge it too.
It's entirely possible that given that animos's power only negates power effects, and it probably doesn't bork tinker tech, it might just tell shards to "turn off" their effects, rather than being true anti-magic, even then, most versions of dnd have had counterspells, anti-magic and disjunction as separate things. If you consider survey and fleet as "enchanted objects", then theirs no reason to assume that his roar would damage them. It might force a reset cycle, but even that's iffy. That's not even considering the defenses that Apeiron might have built into them.
 
I'm also worried about negative consequences of Fleet or Survey getting caught in Animos' power negation roar. They have magic built into the very fabric of their being after all. If they get hit it could be bad. Well, Fleet could easily dodge it, but we haven't seen enough mover powers from Survey to know if she could dodge it too.
I won't worry too much. For one, their bodies are also made using super science and alien technology, not magic alone. Cybertonium, life fibers, and a bunch of other material and tech trees have a part in their workings and makeup. Another factor is that their bodies are also the result of fiat-backed effects or other non-magical means like divine skill/will. Also don't forget that Daedalus' Student and Singing to the Unseen were used. Joe wanted the AIs to no longer be bound to his system and workshop. He wanted them to have freedom and personhood. It's why he used a fragment of his soul to bring them into spiritual wholeness. With the care and attention put in, I also doubt Joe wouldn't have considered such single point of failure like the threat of null trumps. Joe also has perks that help him detect flaws or shortcomings in his work afterall such as Analysis (Red Alert 3).

Now they do have magitech and magic but it's not vital to their being. They'll at most lose access to some of their abilities or arsenal. Divine abilities, psychic powers, pure science tech, and things like their elemental abilities from Infusionist are all still available.

Actually, I think what you have to worry about is if the roar has an effect on the precog spoofing, leading to only OCP covering them which can have its own issues.
 
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A desperate cry for help rather than trying to start shit?
The thing is, both can cause problems for Joe. Even if the Butcher isn't starting anything, the mere reputation is bad enough that I'm sure everyone is just afraid of the Butcher approaching Apeiron as much as Lisa is afraid that Joe would approach Noelle. Not only that, if Apeiron helps the current Butcher... what of the payment, and what happens to the rest of the Teeth?

And with the most definite proof of Apeiron being able to help anyone with power problems, anyone instead of just the Case 53s... well, that is yet another nuke added to Brockton Bay just as the villains of all people are about to agree to a momentary truce over the city.
 
There's something funky going on with the User Choice Awards voting...
Wow, i find very strange that a story with a third of watchers , less than a third of recent readers and less than a twentieth of the engagement than BCF has the same number of votes in the user choice award. Even if both stories shared the same readers, and all of these shared readers preferred the other story. You still got a full third of potential voters for this story...
At this point half their readers apparently voted, while less than 1 in 4 of the readers of this story did...

So, I urge everyone to at least check the candidates and vote!
 
There's something funky going on with the User Choice Awards voting...
Wow, i find very strange that a story with a third of watchers , less than a third of recent readers and less than a twentieth of the engagement than BCF has the same number of votes in the user choice award. Even if both stories shared the same readers, and all of these shared readers preferred the other story. You still got a full third of potential voters for this story...
At this point half their readers apparently voted, while less than 1 in 4 of the readers of this story did...

So, I urge everyone to at least check the candidates and vote!

lol it's literally a popularity contest

I think it would be great if BCF wins, especially because it will piss a great many people off, but it's no mystery that PTT fans are also capable of rounding up fans and asking them to vote.
 
Also don't forget that Daedalus' Student and Singing to the Unseen were used.
In my mind Singing to the Unseen is definitely magic as it came from Elven Enchantment. I can't figure out how much magic that is and how serious losing it would actually be...

And now I'm wondering how Butcher XIV pitched her desperate plan to get help from Apeiron to the rest of the Teeth (and the voices in her head?). After all, the Teeth are famous for their unique approach to diplomacy. Diplomacy that'll probably be worse than negotiating with Piggot.

One really bad situation I thought about would be the Butcher threatening to kill herself next to Joe, which would pass on the Butcher to the nearest parahuman. Which could be Aisha, which would really set off Dadperion alarms.
 
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Merry Christmas! Currently it is muggy, raining, my mom is sick in bed, my neighbor died around midnight, and I have a nosebleed for some reason, but hey: Christmas! Gotta focus on the positives, right? (But no seriously, this sucks)
 
In my mind Singing to the Unseen is definitely magic as it came from Elven Enchantment. I can't figure out how much magic that is and how serious losing it would actually be...

And now I'm wondering how Butcher XIV pitched her desperate plan to get help from Apeiron to the rest of the Teeth (and the voices in her head?). After all, the Teeth are famous for their unique approach to diplomacy. Diplomacy that'll probably be worse than negotiating with Piggot.

One really bad situation I thought about would be the Butcher threatening to kill herself next to Joe, which would pass on the Butcher to the nearest parahuman. Which could be Aisha, which would really set off Dadperion alarms.
Singing the Unseen "involves binding aspects of the spirit world into an object, essentially recreating the forces that created the world" and based on a WoG it's possibly divine which is why I think the roar will have limited effect.

In response to a commenter mistaking the Elven Enchantment Naming as Dresden Files Naming:
Naming from Lord of the Rings works a bit differently from in Dresden Files. It's less about binding and control and more about the nature of something. When Joe Names an object he's effectively defining extra features about its nature. That gives is more characteristics in that direction, even those that shouldn't be physically possible. The only level above that is Singing to the Unseen, which involves binding aspects of the spirit world into an object, essentially recreating the forces that created the world. It's serious stuff on the level of what allowed the rings of power to be created.

You see some similar naming in Dresden Files, and I do like how it was slowly revealed that Harry's tendency to give nicknames to everyone he meets was having a real impact on things. With Joe he can only Name things he makes himself, so you won't be seeing any bindings or Genius Loci creations from that power.
"Exactly which perks'd be boosted by Glory To Me? And by how much?":
I swear I must have covered this before. Glory To Me boosts divine perks to a level specified by the perk description. I believe I have already done a full breakdown of what is boosted, but anything that has direct reference to divinity is certain (Titan's Blood, Asura's Wrath Perks, Percy Jackson powers) while things that are tangentially divine will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. That includes stuff like Lord of Light demigod abilities, The Matrix of Leadership and Allspark from Transformers, 'Divine Object' creation under Fate rules, Blessed By The Gods from MCU, Symphogears, Talismans form Inukami, Castlevania Alchemy, and possibly the highest levels of Elven Enchantment. The exact description of the power level (all massively enhanced to the point that you could fight on par with some mid-tier gods) isn't precise and seems to indicate a cap of total power rather than cumulative boosts, as in everyone get to the level of mid-tier god fighting regardless of what they're starting with. While that's not how I'm going to run things, not every ability will see the same level of boost. A big part of the perk is improved control (Using your powers is instinctual and nearly as easy as breathing) and range of abilities (the stronger your parent or other source of abilities the more you will get to work with). Those aspects would see a more consistent improvement for all affected perks, while the power boosts would see some level of overlap and diminishing returns.

Speaking of diplomacy, seems like Katsujinken will be used again.
 
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