Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Is comparing Taylor's struggles as an individual to galactic genocide, and concluding that Taylor's story is somehow grimmer, really reasonable?
I think the idea is that in terms of how the narrative handles things Worm refuses to give any sliver of victory as opposed to WH40k, I doubt anyone would argue space-opera hell simulator is less grim than Worm.
 
Ok question . (I've only read parts of Worm so far), but as far as I can tell Worm is practically a run of the mill superhero story in terms of "Grimdark". Why do so many people seem to treat it like it's the saddest thing to cross the Internet?

Like 1st n 2nd age LOTR (like Silmar tragedies etc), 40K, Elfen Lied, Bat Who Laughs, and a bunch of other stories can get just as dark.

Hell, The Children of Húrin seems especially up that alley.

I don't mean to start an argument, and if this turns into a derail/ is too much of one already I'll just stop here.

I just thought it was a bit weird I guess that people get so hung up on the "grimdarkness" of worm when a lot of the worst stuff doesn't even seem to be at the forefront anyways.

This is of course my ill-informed, 2am opinion.

I'll go read Worm in its entirety soon just to see for myself, but even the worst excerpts I've read seem pretty par the course for a depressing/tragic story.

Maybe it's because it follows a bullied teenager?
 
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Ok question . (I've only read parts of Worm so far), but as far as I can tell Worm is practically a run of the mill superhero story in terms of "Grimdark". Why do so many people seem to treat it like it's the saddest thing to cross the Internet?
It Gets Worse. Especially when the Word of God posts, Sequel, canon quests, and the rest of it comes into play. Like, the first time the Slaughterhouse 9 shows up is bad. And then it just keeps going from there. Then Ward turns the whole thing into a shaggy dog story while ratcheting up the misery and retconning a couple characters into being even worse people than they originally were.

Edit To Add: It's the relentless addition of bad stuff, the fact that there are several gaping plotholes, the lack of research on somethings, and so on. Like, I'm pretty sure I cannot mention some canonical trigger events on this forum without breaking the rules. It's mostly the backstory of stuff, and moments like the baby-killing that give Worm its reputation.
 
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It Gets Worse. Especially when the Word of God posts, Sequel, canon quests, and the rest of it comes into play. Like, the first time the Slaughterhouse 9 shows up is bad. And then it just keeps going from there. Then Ward turns the whole thing into a shaggy dog story while ratcheting up the misery and retconning a couple characters into being even worse people than they originally were.

Edit To Add: It's the relentless addition of bad stuff, the fact that there are several gaping plotholes, the lack of research on somethings, and so on. Like, I'm pretty sure I cannot mention some canonical trigger events on this forum without breaking the rules. It's mostly the backstory of stuff, and moments like the baby-killing that give Worm its reputation.
Not only does it make things worse, there's not a moment of hope or victory. It's just a constant skin-tearing struggle to survive and make the situation slightly less shit.
 
Was Weld that useful? I remember his biology got used for something, but I don't remember it being very important.

It was used to make the kids bodies.

So now Weld have to give Joe finantial support.

.....Actually, it would kinda hilarious if TT's power tell her that the AI-bots are related to Weld. Make her think Platinum Capuchin is making Cape clones and freak out.
 
Was Weld that useful? I remember his biology got used for something, but I don't remember it being very important.
Part of Weld's power is he is favorably Manton limited. to all powers. not just masters. Like Faultline's power wouldn't work on him, because he shows up as alive. and any sort of power that only works on people would also not work on him, because then he would show up as inanimate. His sample being included gave this effect to the workshop crew who just got bodies. without this, to any power that checked them they would just show up as inanimate.
 
Part of Weld's power is he is favorably Manton limited. to all powers. not just masters. Like Faultline's power wouldn't work on him, because he shows up as alive. and any sort of power that only works on people would also not work on him, because then he would show up as inanimate. His sample being included gave this effect to the workshop crew who just got bodies. without this, to any power that checked them they would just show up as inanimate.

And that's the story of how Fanon!Clockblocker surpassed the interdimentional barriers just to tell the bullshittiest Tinker that he is bullshit.
 
Not only does it make things worse, there's not a moment of hope or victory. It's just a constant skin-tearing struggle to survive and make the situation slightly less shit.

...This isn't true though? In both Worm and Ward humanity wins in the end, and in Ward at least they end up in a better position then they started the story in. Furthermore, even disregarding the endings there are a number of unambiguous victories for the good guys in both stories.

I think that the grimdarkness of the parahumans series is badly exaggerated, mostly by people who have never actually read the stories in question. If you want real grimdark read Pact.
 
...This isn't true though? In both Worm and Ward humanity wins in the end, and in Ward at least they end up in a better position then they started the story in. Furthermore, even disregarding the endings there are a number of unambiguous victories for the good guys in both stories.

I think that the grimdarkness of the parahumans series is badly exaggerated, mostly by people who have never actually read the stories in question. If you want real grimdark read Pact.

How did Ward end anyway? I know more or less whar happens during it, but I never see discussions about how it ended.

And, again, I think that Worm have the problem of not having enough downtime in between crisis, and when we get one we get to see the different ways Taylor's life is shitty, so at least I got a bad impression of the world while reading it. On the other hand, that's because most parahumans are suppossed to have shitty lives, and what we get to see outside of that isn't that bad. In the US at least. Of course, most of the fault still falls to early fandom that didn't have the whole story, so, for what I have read, fics from that time tended to be kinda bleak, that most fics that follow the railroads end at the Leviathan (or S9) attack don't help much either.

Though for what I have seen people tend to write non-Brockton Bay cities to be more.... well, not cheery, but less of a shit hole.

EDIT:

Also, yes, for what I have seen Pact is BUILD around the idea of "and then everything went worse"
 
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Rewards of the Black Crusade (Mojave Courier)
Speaking of grimdark, have an omake.

Rewards of the Black Crusade

Once again, Joe had found himself surprised by The Forge. The Forge had given him something different. Something new. Something big. He didn't like it.

Once he held the Forge's "gifts" in his hands, he was, at the very least, thankful that they were... given was too weak of a word for this... gifted... yes, gifted to him before the meeting at Somer's Rock. Having these two weapons, these instruments of death, appear in the middle of a crowded room filled with villains, both stable and not, would not have done him any favors.

The first weapon was unique. It was a Lightning Claw, one with a Combi-Bolter attached to the top of it. It was a Power Weapon, one beyond any other. The Talon of Horus. From the moment the Talon was in his presence, he knew. Weapons had souls and this Talon exemplified that. The very spirit of the weapon was one bathed in blood and gore. The weapon had slain countless beings, mortals and daemons alike, even gods as well, minor as they were. It had dealt the final blow to an angel and in doing so, it became more than a mere weapon of war. It had become a symbol, an instrument of death and destruction, ready to desecrate and annihilate all in its wielder's path. The endless sorrow of a grieving father, the wailing lament of a dying god, it was all plain to see. To feel. Even now, blood stained the Talon and with every bolt within, each one blessed in blood sacrifices, Joe knew. He knew that this was a weapon of chaos, a weapon meant to inflict pain, suffering, and death to all. He didn't need his powers to know that. The aura it exuded, the one it radiated, told him all he needed to know. And the moment the Talon entered the field of battle, everyone else would as well.

And yet, in some ways, the Talon of Horus was nothing compared to the second weapon.

The End of Empires. The Echo of the First Murder. Drach'nyen. Where the Talon of Horus was an old weapon, one with the weight of millennia behind it, Drach'nyen was far older. Drach'nyen was, in actuality, not truly a weapon. It was a Daemon, one borne from the very moment man first murdered one of his own kind. And so, Drach'nyen continued that malefic legacy, slaying countless beings, regardless of their nature. And from the countless faces and skulls moving across its blade, Drach'nyen had been doing so for a long, long time. If the Talon of Horus was an instrument of death and destruction, Drach'nyen was an orchestra all on its own, an orchestra of ruin and annihilation. Every life taken by the hands of mankind... every whisper of hatred into the ears of the dying... every thought of killing another... all this had served to turn Drach'nyen into a weapon beyond any other. A weapon that cannot be stopped. There was no barrier Drach'nyen could not pierce. Flesh, metal, energy. Drach'nyen could cut through all of that and more. Reality itself was rent apart where ever Drach'nyen chose to strike. Drach'nyen was the ultimate Daemon Weapon, one that grew with the sins and actions of humanity itself.

And both weapons, both tools of pain and suffering, both of them were loyal to Joe. He knew it deep down within him. These weapons were monstrous, vile, and yes, chaotic to their very cores. But they were loyal and would serve no master, save for Joe himself. And for that, Joe could respect them, give them the honor of being used when they needed to be.

But first, Joe needed to take precautions. He could not wield these weapons without some way to suppress the aura of malevolence they radiated with every moment. As it was now, the only reason he'd wield these weapons would be against S-Class threats or against the Endbringers.

He really didn't want to drive people to madness anytime soon. His reputation still needed to be fixed, damn it!​
 
How did Ward end anyway? I know more or less whar happens during it, but I never see discussions about how it ended.

And, again, I think that Worm have the problem of not having enough downtime in between crisis, and when we get one we get to see the different ways Taylor's life is shitty, so at least I got a bad impression of the world while reading it. On the other hand, that's because most parahumans are suppossed to have shitty lives, and what we get to see outside of that isn't that bad. In the US at least. Of course, most of the fault still falls to early fandom that didn't have the whole story, so, for what I have read, fics from that time tended to be kinda bleak, that most fics that follow the railroads end at the Leviathan (or S9) attack don't help much either.

Though for what I have seen people tend to write non-Brockton Bay cities to be more.... well, not cheery, but less of a shit hole.

EDIT:

Also, yes, for what I have seen Pact is BUILD around the idea of "and then everything went worse"
From what I heard, bonesaw released a super plauge that put all parahumans into a coma. Except based on the way everything was going it was originally supposed to kill all parahumans instead.
 
...This isn't true though? In both Worm and Ward humanity wins in the end, and in Ward at least they end up in a better position then they started the story in. Furthermore, even disregarding the endings there are a number of unambiguous victories for the good guys in both stories.

I think that the grimdarkness of the parahumans series is badly exaggerated, mostly by people who have never actually read the stories in question. If you want real grimdark read Pact.
Honestly; Worm's a story wherein Humanity triumphs over some of the greatest possible stakes (once you hit "total extinction of humanity"-level, it's hard to surpass that). I don't think that the rough pacing is enough to justify this perception that it's a horrible story where there are no true victories.

A few unambiguous victories, from memory; The Leviathan attack in canon has the lowest endbringer deathcount ever iirc, Every regular (non-endbringer-related) cape activity Taylor is involved with in-between joining the protectorate and the S9K arc. The good guys winning against the S9K. The defeat of Scion.
 
Honestly; Worm's a story wherein Humanity triumphs over some of the greatest possible stakes (once you hit "total extinction of humanity"-level, it's hard to surpass that). I don't think that the rough pacing is enough to justify this perception that it's a horrible story where there are no true victories.

A few unambiguous victories, from memory; The Leviathan attack in canon has the lowest endbringer deathcount ever iirc, Every regular (non-endbringer-related) cape activity Taylor is involved with in-between joining the protectorate and the S9K arc. The good guys winning against the S9K. The defeat of Scion.

I.... don't think saying "it had the lowest dead count so it was an unambiguous victory" should be a thing.

The others, well, for what I undestand we know very little of what happened in the timeskip, so I wouldn't count them if only because it didn't happen "in-screen", so to say. If I don't take that into account, then it is an unambiguous victory. The S9K, with how many people died, I don't think it counts, even more so because Jack started the apocalypse, which was what they were trying to stop, so it was a lose as far as I'm concerned. And, yes, they killed Scion, but they did it after he destroyed entire landmasses and made Bet practically uninhabitable, so pyrric victory at best.
 
Honestly; Worm's a story wherein Humanity triumphs over some of the greatest possible stakes (once you hit "total extinction of humanity"-level, it's hard to surpass that). I don't think that the rough pacing is enough to justify this perception that it's a horrible story where there are no true victories.

A few unambiguous victories, from memory; The Leviathan attack in canon has the lowest endbringer deathcount ever iirc, Every regular (non-endbringer-related) cape activity Taylor is involved with in-between joining the protectorate and the S9K arc. The good guys winning against the S9K. The defeat of Scion.
You're not wrong, but you're not 100% right either. The Defeat of Scion, for example. It's revealed that 1) Taylor had no free will and all her suffering was predetermined as she was a collaboration project between the three most powerful precogs in the setting, 2) She becomes universally reviled by humanity for saving humanity, 3) Taylor's mind-control was needed because humanity is incapable of getting along even in the face of an external threat, 4) Killing Scion lead directly to a slow torturous death by Shard Cancer(Titans) and such(Which, granted, only counts if you count Ward as Canon, which I've met several Worm fans that don't)...

The Good Guy's victory against the S9K is the direct cause of Golden Morning... Which was the Best-Case Scenario for Humanity thanks in part due to the three Precog Mega-Project.

Or the fact that by Word Of God humanity still dies at a multiversal level at the end of Ward, it just takes another 300 years before the shard network detonates everything anyway.

Edit: I want to make it clear: Wildbow's Word Of God is why a lot of us have the opinion that the series is Grimdark, because that's what a lot of his WoG makes it out to be. The WoG is very much Not Good.
 
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How did Ward end anyway? I know more or less whar happens during it, but I never see discussions about how it ended.

Essentially, it came down to a massive five way fight between:

The Simurgh and part of the shard network backing her, with the goal of taking charge of the entire shard network and turning the world into a dystopian hellscape designed to maximize conflict.
Titan Fortuna (aka the PTV shard) and part of the shard network backing it, with the goal of creating a new entity to replace Scion and Eden, that would then end the cycle, destroy humanity, and move on from the Earths.
The Machine Army, a self-replicating menace attempting to devour everything else.
Sleeper, just generally causing chaos and wrecking anything he came into contact with.
And finally, humanity itself, along with a smaller number of shards that sided with them.

Eventually, the human forces managed to force Titan Fortuna into a pyrrhic victory where it won against all the others, but had to either back down from destroying the Earths and continuing the cycle, or have all the collected data of the shard network be hopelessly corrupted, losing the entire life's work of Scion and Eden and much progress for the entities as a whole. Titan Fortuna backed down, giving humanity the final victory. The story ends with humans, both normal and para, and the shard network settling down into a more stable and cooperative society, moving forwards into the future.

Or the fact that by Word Of God humanity still dies at a multiversal level at the end of Ward, it just takes another 300 years before the shard network detonates everything anyway.

...Which WoG is this? I've never heard of this before. Do you have a source?
 
Quick question, the 3 precog are Fortuna, Zisz and... Tattles?
Dinah. Ziz set up her early life, Dinah set up the Ward Era, Fortuna did the rest. While there was no direct communication between them, all three of them were working toward the same goal with completely different methods. Fortuna and Dinah were trying to save humanity(by killing Scion), Ziz was just trying to kill Scion.
 
Don't forget: Dinah was being petty and wrecking Taylor because Dinah's kidnapping was a direct result of Taylor's successful bank job distracting the heroes. Two birds, one precog.
 
Don't forget: Dinah was being petty and wrecking Taylor because Dinah's kidnapping was a direct result of Taylor's successful bank job distracting the heroes.
Where are you getting this from? That's sounds like Fanon. Didn't Dinah did it to save the world and Taylor was necessary in order for Khepri to happen. I don't remember her being Petty, if it did happen can you show instances of it?
 
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They had saturated their planet of origin, across all universes, to the point that they were desperately gasping for every last photon of starlight as an energy source.
Then one of them had the idea to leave the planet, and go find a way to avoid ever being in this situation again. Cue cycles.
"I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure."
Agent Smith

Of course, Smith is full of shit - no species on Earth "chooses" equilibrium, equilibrium is forced upon them by predation, disease and famine.

But! The feelings still stands - they aren't a species that tends towards higher orders and awareness, they're a species that simply seek to consume and multiply with the physical power that enables them to live as Virus', not creating anything only absorbing and mutating.

This is what always disgusts me about them - all that power, and some larger fungal colonies possibly have better cognition and self-awareness than them.
 
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