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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Flufferton said:
Speaking of the ol' WoG about Noelle and Darkclone-Joe....ugh...what exactly were the limits beyond nothing fiat-backed? As in, what exactly counts as fiat-backed? And what are the limits of Noelle's cloning? If she were to clone someone whose back was broken in an accident would the clone also have a broken back? Or would they be whole as they would be if they hadn't suffered a broken back? Can she clone prosthetics if they are attatched to a person or just clone the person without the prosthetics?

Reasons I ask this are, well, Joe currently is a zoanthrope life-fiber hybrid demigod with a ragnite heart. The whole zoanthrope/life-fiber hybrid thing is something genetic so I'd imagine any dark clones would possess those traits as well...oh! And he is officially a Servant now. How does THAT affect the Darkclones? Would they get magic circuits too?
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Joe isn't quite a servant more a demiservant/pseudoservant, but due to Parahuman-Magic equivalency the cloning would be as perfect as possible, although since a Servant can't be summoned multiple times at once, it would completely brick the power. Or Echidna's power ignores that part. Her power might also fail at copying the Divine nature of his gear perfectly, meaning it might be weakened a bit.
Flufferton said:
As far as skills and knowledge goes thats self-explanatory. Though I need to point out that the Darkclones will also get the ability of Master Craftsmen, and also that he can teach it too. It is, after all, a skill that he learned from the fey.

....would the Darkclones also possess Spiral like his alchemy clones do? Spiral, after all, is something he CAN teach, and they ARE his clones, even if not made by him.
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Not really. Most his power is facilitated by perks. There would be no Analysis scanners, no Spiral, no Divine Crafting, no HF weaponry (Which Joe can make through fiat, according to WOG), no Runes, etc. They would not get any of Joe's blessings, no Unnatural Skills, though the demigod nature is possible.

Additionally Joe seems to be the only person capable of using the metaphysics his perks import, alchemy excluded, but there still might be some use/reverse-engineering capability for tech from Bubblegum Crisis or 40k. Or perhaps lacking those perks would take those databases out of Tenebrion's mind. Other skill & knowhow would remain though, though probably muted by human neurology to peak-human at best.

Also yeah I say Darkclone-Joe should be called Tenebrion, because of how stupid and over-the-top the name is, but also unnerving and gross-feeling.

TLDR: Unless noted to work no matter who does it, such as a lot of his techbases, or having a genetic component or similar, assume it would not be retained.
 
Flufferton said:
That largely depends on how Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer's, fiat-backed ID system works. If it works pro-actively, in that you can point to one Joe and say 'You are Apeiron, The Enigmatic Artificer!' and then point to another Joe and say 'You are Apeiron!' to differentiate between the real joe and darkclone joe, then yeah, it could work. BUT! If it does not work that way, as in no amount of finger pointing and calling Joe Apeiron would ever trigger the ID system even if you are fingering the real Joe, then outing he is Apeiron won't help him prove to the world that he is NOT the same Joe that turned his family into the new faces of Monster Horror Cinema on live tv. If anything, at least I hope he is aware of it, hopefully...probably not...buuut, several prominate people already believe him to be a power tinker of the mad science variety. Live demonstration of that nature, and then outing himself, would do nothing to convince them otherwise. And that is even assuming the ID system can work retroactively. Since he'd have to out himself AFTER the video aired.


Speaking of the ol' WoG about Noelle and Darkclone-Joe....ugh...what exactly were the limits beyond nothing fiat-backed? As in, what exactly counts as fiat-backed? And what are the limits of Noelle's cloning? If she were to clone someone whose back was broken in an accident would the clone also have a broken back? Or would they be whole as they would be if they hadn't suffered a broken back? Can she clone prosthetics if they are attatched to a person or just clone the person without the prosthetics?

Reasons I ask this are, well, Joe currently is a zoanthrope life-fiber hybrid demigod with a ragnite heart. The whole zoanthrope/life-fiber hybrid thing is something genetic so I'd imagine any dark clones would possess those traits as well...oh! And he is officially a Servant now. How does THAT affect the Darkclones? Would they get magic circuits too?

As far as skills and knowledge goes thats self-explanatory. Though I need to point out that the Darkclones will also get the ability of Master Craftsmen, and also that he can teach it too. It is, after all, a skill that he learned from the fey.

....would the Darkclones also possess Spiral like his alchemy clones do? Spiral, after all, is something he CAN teach, and they ARE his clones, even if not made by him.
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it would let them know that this isnt aperion in the first place doing things, its fiat backed knowing who you are.
 
The Echidna Clone Apeiron discussion is kinda moot though. Joe has superhuman reflexes, is incredibly fast, and most of all, has best-in-the-world class sensors running constantly. He's also going to be a lot more paranoid approaching engagements going forward. It would be ludicrously hard to actually get him into contact with Noelle, especially because Joe's passenger will start the alarm klaxons as soon as there's a hint of her appearing (in fact, the passenger has already started the warnings about her).

Maybe if you had a Trickster+Noelle+March+Bakuda+Leet team-up, you could maybe pull it off, but Krouse and Noelle want her cured, not evil clones of Apeiron running around that might convince him to just ice Noelle instead of curing her. Also Noelle is currently under Coil's control, and Coil has too much self-preservation to want an Evil Clone of Aperion to exist. Remember, we know that Echidna clones of Joe don't have most of his powers, characters in the story do not.
 
Narsauce said:
Echidna Clones of Joe would most likely have, at most, the Knowledge of Joe's memories, what he has built and potentially some of what he can build. I doubt the Life Fibres would get copied over by Echidna, but that's because they are lucky.
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Will clones even be functional?
1. Neural implant: It might be not integrated deeply enough to hurt Joe if it stops working, but Noelle's cloning is flawed as is, it is not warrantied to distinguish implant correctly (Like slamming data from implant into brain).
2. Incompatible data/hardware: Joe by now knows and thinks in ways that human brain isn't supposed to (like his perk for blueprinting and master builder) and has some extremely bloated databases that I'm not sure can fit in a limited human brain. For all we know, Joe's clone can just Kernel Panic on startup due to incompatibilities or messed up data.
3. Tetra-fusion. How will that translate? Since some bits of Tetra are now parts of him and likely can not be copied, does that mean that a clone will be missing some bits and pieces on some level? That fusion likely affected brain as well.
4. Demigod physique and incarnated servant: Both are more than just a physical body, and Joe already had a sort of 'out of brain thinking' experience while Joe's brain was indisposed under surgery. If Echidna fails to properly copy demigod parts, clones are likely to be missing some memories, or will have a very hazy recollection of everything past certain point.
 
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Lord already made a wog on the clones,
The clones will have none of the perks and will only have the biology of his body like demigod, the problem is that since the clones dont have fiat backed their powers those same biological aspects are uncontrollable like his fire ability

Here is lords wog on a evil clone:
"There are a lot of things that would have to go wrong for Joe to get cloned, particularly seeing how strong his inherent powers currently are. His pyrokinesis might not be enough to kill Noelle without going full nova, but it would be close and it's tricky to run cloning when the person you're trying to clone is incinerating any flesh that comes in contact with him."

Basically if Noelle has joe and clones him She would have the equivalent of lava in her body.
 
I wouldn't say Bakuda deserves super cancer. That kind of rhetoric leads the way to saying anyone past a certain moral line should be thrown in the super cancer machine. Punishment ought to serve a greater purpose than just hurting bad people because they are bad.

Of course, she also doesn't deserve any sympathy or care from those she has victimized and those she would victimize in a heartbeat (which is essentially everyone).

Though, on the other hand, eventually Joe will reach the point where he can flawlessly shield himself and others from even the most minute harm Bakuda might try to inflict. Care for others is a burden we can't rightfully make obligatory, pretty much exactly because of cases like with this asshole (if not with added superpowers in real life), but past a certain point there's no way it could be considered a burden for Joe to divine craft a therapy/medical center with an overseeing all loving A.I. in 0.2 seconds. Or something like that at least. And in that case maybe it would become obligatory for him to help Bakuda?

(Has this come up before? I hope I'm not repeating myself, though I guess it's definitely been a while if so.)
 
If we really go into such reasoning, then, in fact, the most important thing that Apeiron can do is a very real opportunity not to bring retribution for what has already been done (although this is also necessary), but to eliminate the causes of this in the future. The reasons for this are economic and political (poverty and misery, stress, shitty upbringing, health care, and education, a bad environment when a certain community reproduces itself, the other extreme is ultra-wealth, boredom, permissiveness and also shitty upbringing, thirst for power and all that), medical and genetic (hereditary violation of the biochemistry of the brain, for example), and mental arising from these two points. And already now Joe can fix at least the first two points, in a fair share. And he has a buff of managerial talent personally from the goddess)) In general, Joe is running for president. Or at least the mayor of BB.
In general, Apeiron is exactly the character that I (and I think not only I) would be happy to see next to me in any really bad situations, such as the apocalypse.
And not even because he is a Mysterious inventor, although that too. But because no matter how he is criticized, that he is naive, does not see the obvious, is stupid, and so on. At the same time, forgetting that he is a deeply civil person, who just three or four weeks ago had a huge force on his head, which is also growing uncontrollably, allowing him to learn new facets of an existential crisis. The most important thing is that he won't do real shit, he won't betray you, frame you, and the like.
 
TitanFrost said:
I wouldn't say Bakuda deserves super cancer. That kind of rhetoric leads the way to saying anyone past a certain moral line should be thrown in the super cancer machine. Punishment ought to serve a greater purpose than just hurting bad people because they are bad.

Of course, she also doesn't deserve any sympathy or care from those she has victimized and those she would victimize in a heartbeat (which is essentially everyone).
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I agree - no one Should suffer unnecessarily, even if they have done bad things. Bakuda's suffering is pretty much necessary here, though.
TitanFrost said:
Though, on the other hand, eventually Joe will reach the point where he can flawlessly shield himself and others from even the most minute harm Bakuda might try to inflict. Care for others is a burden we can't rightfully make obligatory, pretty much exactly because of cases like with this asshole (if not with added superpowers in real life), but past a certain point there's no way it could be considered a burden for Joe to divine craft a therapy/medical center with an overseeing all loving A.I. in 0.2 seconds. Or something like that at least. And in that case maybe it would become obligatory for him to help Bakuda?
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There's definitely a certain level of power in which killing becomes almost completely unjustifiable from a moral standpoint, unless your moral view is "I can do whatever I want because of my overwhelming power" (which is reprehensible). Joe is pretty much guaranteed to reach that power level eventually.
KnightofRoyalty said:
Lord already made a wog on the clones,
The clones will have none of the perks and will only have the biology of his body like demigod, the problem is that since the clones dont have fiat backed their powers those same biological aspects are uncontrollable like his fire ability

Here is lords wog on a evil clone:
"There are a lot of things that would have to go wrong for Joe to get cloned, particularly seeing how strong his inherent powers currently are. His pyrokinesis might not be enough to kill Noelle without going full nova, but it would be close and it's tricky to run cloning when the person you're trying to clone is incinerating any flesh that comes in contact with him."

Basically if Noelle has joe and clones him She would have the equivalent of lava in her body.
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That quote isn't saying that Joe's clones would have his demigod physiology, it's saying that Joe would be using his pyrokinesis to incinerate anything coming into contact with him, which would prevent Noelle's contact-based cloning power from cloning him.
Hydraphur Trader said:
If we really go into such reasoning, then, in fact, the most important thing that Apeiron can do is a very real opportunity not to bring retribution for what has already been done (although this is also necessary), but to eliminate the causes of this in the future. The reasons for this are economic and political (poverty and misery, stress, shitty upbringing, health care, and education, a bad environment when a certain community reproduces itself, the other extreme is ultra-wealth, boredom, permissiveness and also shitty upbringing, thirst for power and all that), medical and genetic (hereditary violation of the biochemistry of the brain, for example), and mental arising from these two points. And already now Joe can fix at least the first two points, in a fair share. And he has a buff of managerial talent personally from the goddess)) In general, Joe is running for president. Or at least the mayor of BB.
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the only thing preventing Joe from doing this is the simurgh, who's job is to create problems and prevent solutions.
As a side-note: an arc where Apeiron becomes the first Cape president would be very interesting.
 
TitanFrost said:
I wouldn't say Bakuda deserves super cancer. That kind of rhetoric leads the way to saying anyone past a certain moral line should be thrown in the super cancer machine. Punishment ought to serve a greater purpose than just hurting bad people because they are bad.
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It's poetic justice. Bakuda deserves super cancer because she inflicted it on herself, due to the same evil attitude that led her to inflict similar hurt on various bystanders.

Should Bakuda survive her self-inflicted suffering, the experience would likely moderate those evil attitudes in the future.
 
MagicalAmbitions said:
the only thing preventing Joe from doing this is the simurgh, who's job is to create problems and prevent solutions.
As a side-note: an arc where Apeiron becomes the first Cape president would be very interesting.
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I mean... I'm not sure if that's legal, but if it is, he could probably do it. He's got the starpower, he could follow through on any promise, just killing an endbringer could guarantee him the seat, and he has the upper body strength to suplex his opponents.
That last one doesn't sound important, but that's only because most politicians are old and weak, if I see a 6+ foot demigod lift a car over his head with the words "National deficit" spray painted on it before tearing it apart with his bare hands, He's got my vote until such time as his opponent can do the same. Steel Simian would probably face pressure from the PRT, but he can litteraly just tell them to stand down once he gets in office. What are they going to do, coup the most powerful man alive, physically and politically?
 
Graviator said:
It's poetic justice. Bakuda deserves super cancer because she inflicted it on herself, due to the same evil attitude that led her to inflict similar hurt on various bystanders.

Should Bakuda survive her self-inflicted suffering, the experience would likely moderate those evil attitudes in the future.
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Eh, I don't think complex mental issues which cause people to hurt themselves can be solved with the same level of ease as, "ouch, this stove is hot. Won't touch that stove again."
 
LoquaciousLizard said:
I mean... I'm not sure if that's legal
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That didn't stop Rebecca from being the head of the PRT and when she was exposed it didn't stop her from being the de facto head of the PRT. I think he has a strong chance to swing it, you know, if his trauma (no, not that one!) heals enough to let him.
 
LoquaciousLizard said:
I mean... I'm not sure if that's legal, but if it is, he could probably do it. He's got the starpower, he could follow through on any promise, just killing an endbringer could guarantee him the seat, and he has the upper body strength to suplex his opponents.
That last one doesn't sound important, but that's only because most politicians are old and weak, if I see a 6+ foot demigod lift a car over his head with the words "National deficit" spray painted on it before tearing it apart with his bare hands, He's got my vote until such time as his opponent can do the same. Steel Simian would probably face pressure from the PRT, but he can litteraly just tell them to stand down once he gets in office. What are they going to do, coup the most powerful man alive, physically and politically?
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not being president of the USA would not stop him, he could after killing a endbringer ask "Hey, any country want me to be their ruler and provide them with my technology and strength" and just watch countries go to war over who gets to have him as their leader or even better all merge into one larger country for him to rule.
 
tri2 said:
not being president of the USA would not stop him, he could after killing a endbringer ask "Hey, any country want me to be their ruler and provide them with my technology and strength" and just watch countries go to war over who gets to have him as their leader or even better all merge into one larger country for him to rule.
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Don't think that's how that would work, psychologically speaking. And that's even before considering that if Apeiron is strong enough to prompt such a response then he's probably strong enough to keep it under control.
 
So I just wanted to bring up the sole perk from the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy, 'Weapon Recombination Template' -200CP, from FF XIII-2.

First I just want there is way, way better tech to have made a perk out of in this setting. There are cybernetically enhanced lab-grown monsters and man-portable anti-gravity devices and divine machines responsible for the creation and destruction of mankind, and the jumpdoc author decided to go with... some gimmicky weapons. Ergh. Rant over, onto the main point.

So this perk sounds simple at first: it lets you combine two weapons together to let the resulting product transform between either form. In-game, Serah's weapon transforms from a bow to a sword via some nifty little mechanical folding action. There's a neat little detail here: Serah's weapon is a living being. It's a moogle (think marshmallow + bear + bat + big ego) with the ability to transform into a weapon. Now, the perk explicitly says no moogle is included in the perk, nor is it necessary for the perk to function. What the perk might allow for is the combination of shapeshifting creatures with weaponry. It leaves a generous little bit at the end stipulating that living creatures can be added into the mixture. This is the actually useful bit of this perk, the rest of it is covered by RWBY's perks.

Lord Roustabout, I'd just say if you're planning on including this perk so you can cross it off your list... there's really not much lore or story to be included with this. Fact is, there's no explanation or information given on the weapon shifting beyond the first half hour of gameplay. It's a very simple "Here's what your weapons do" tutorial and then on to bigger, more confusing time travel shenanigans because that's not important. Now, if you're interested in including metaphysics from that 'verse for Joe to bring over, there's a lot of stuff there involving the creation of humans and the properties of their souls, which would require a big lore dive to properly convey, but the perk itself doesn't include many or any connections to lore.

Edit: I made a slight mistake here, this is not the only perk from the trilogy. I filtered the doc for 'XIII', which this perk uses, while every other perk uses '13'. Smh.
 
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So, i have a question .Why do some authors apologize for the long chapters? and why do some readers have a problem with long chapters? isnt it a good thing? if you enjoy the story then it seems to me to be an overall positive to have more story to enjoy, right?
 
Can't believe I've not seen others talking about this, but what has to be my favorite part of the chapter is when he casually tells his therapist to keep the SIMURGH BLOCKING MACHINE that he made as though it wasn't even worth the few steps it would take to walk over and grab it. A little device which would forever change their world on a fundamental level and he's just, "Eh it's cool, you can keep it." Makes me think back to him putting quarters in the jar each time he thought something with an almost alien mindset.

TitanFrost said:
I wouldn't say Bakuda deserves super cancer. That kind of rhetoric leads the way to saying anyone past a certain moral line should be thrown in the super cancer machine. Punishment ought to serve a greater purpose than just hurting bad people because they are bad.
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Personally I just want her to be dead (or otherwise never be relevant in the story again) because her arc just kept dragging on and I genuinely don't know if I could stomach dealing with that again.
 
Kurohime said:
So, i have a question .Why do some authors apologize for the long chapters? and why do some readers have a problem with long chapters? isnt it a good thing? if you enjoy the story then it seems to me to be an overall positive to have more story to enjoy, right?
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Usually the issue is that there isn't more story, just more words. I'm not making a judgement on BCF one way or another, here, but it's been about two weeks in universe over 1.1 million words, of which the vast majority has been practically meaningless. Just this chapter was 21 thousand words of a single psychologist appointment. Not even one that had a real step forward, hell, not even one that finished. One chapter's entire plot progress involved calling Taylor and setting up a meeting at the library. Several chapters have been tens of thousands of words of what are explicitly taking breaks.
 
Execute/Dumbo said:
Usually the issue is that there isn't more story, just more words. I'm not making a judgement on BCF one way or another, here, but it's been about two weeks in universe over 1.1 million words, of which the vast majority has been practically meaningless. Just this chapter was 21 thousand words of a single psychologist appointment. Not even one that had a real step forward, hell, not even one that finished. One chapter's entire plot progress involved calling Taylor and setting up a meeting at the library. Several chapters have been tens of thousands of words of what are explicitly taking breaks.
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Psst... hey. If you read those words, there's a story in them. With character development and everything.
 
Cerridwen said:
Psst... hey. If you read those words, there's a story in them. With character development and everything.
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Did you… read what I said? There was an entire chapter dedicated to a giant mecha basketball game, which had zero character development. Just a few chapters ago had the zillionth conversation on how fast Joe's power was progressing when he was talking with Aisha, which progressed almost identically to every time he's talked about the same thing with his clones. He spent several thousand words mulling over whether it was okay to give Taylor armour, before settling on 'well it's probably okay'.

There has been a story, like I said. It's also been a story of two weeks in universe, where thousands of words have been dedicated to almost identical conversations with his clones about how he should probably call his sister, before he finally does so and makes no progress beyond confirming that yes his sister's full of shit. I'm not making a judgement on the story, but it is absolutely focused on playing in a tech sandbox over a tightly written story.
 
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