Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Flufferton · Mar 17, 2022

dragon_cloud16 said:
These right here are fully true. The entire concept is more of a loose agreement to prevent someone from attacking the other while they are sleeping or are in a restaurant in a sense. And even then it is more like the idea of you being jumped by the guys friends/group if you attacked them.

Kinda like mutual destruction in a sense. Most Thinkers and Strangers could pretty easily bypass them, those in power use them to protect themselves while planning how to strike through them, and there is actually no legal basis for them. The only thing uniting people in those rules is when their own lives, territory, and/or property is in danger. They were broken a lot and even if Taylor believed in them doesn't change the fact that she is a unreliable narrator.

Also doesn't change the fact when a 300 ton Mithril Silverback says stick to the rules or else, you stick to the rules.

(To clarify, he is considered bound by contracts. The unwritten rules is a verbal contract. Ergo, violate them and pay the price for angering the Mad Scientes)

dragon_cloud16 · Mar 17, 2022

Flufferton said:
Also doesn't change the fact when a 300 ton Mithril Silverback says stick to the rules or else, you stick to the rules.

(To clarify, he is considered bound by contracts. The unwritten rules is a verbal contract. Ergo, violate them and pay the price for angering the Mad Scientes)

First off, Aperion wouldn't use Mithrill for his construct to smack you down. He has so many powerful materials available that if Armsmaster knew about them, it would lead to him having a Second Trigger and try to join.

And we know Joe isn't really bound by contracts. He plays it up which will actually help him in this situation. But most others if Joe wasn't around or had a different approach to things would have no problem abusing them for their own gain when possible.

I was just commenting on it in canon with Coil releasing to the public the E88 identities, the Brockton Bay Brigade attacking Marquis in his home, and what Tagg did in canon. Not to mention the Slaughterhouse 9.

Brainstorm813 · Mar 17, 2022

AGiantB said:
Does anyone know if Joe can create Fate Philosopher Stones, Homunculi and Atlas tech?

Atlas tech covers a wide branch of magitech, most of which haven't been explained in the source material. But he has multiple methods of creating Philosopher Stones, all of which differ slightly from each other, and Homunculi. But he is never going to attempt the latter.

Nimeroni · Mar 17, 2022

AGiantB said:
Does anyone know if Joe can create Fate Philosopher Stones, Homunculi and Atlas tech?

Isn't those secret ~~tech~~ magic of various mage family or something ? Why would Joe know them ?

Brainstorm813 said:
Atlas tech covers a wide branch of magitech, most of which haven't been explained in the source material. But he has multiple methods of creating Philosopher Stones, all of which differ slightly from each other, and Homunculi. But he is never going to attempt the latter.

I'm pretty sure that when Joe talk about "making Philosopher stones that are all subtly different", he was talking about the various Philosopher stones from the different worlds his perks came from. They are all called "Philosopher stone", but they work in different ways because they come from different rules.

Anyway, the only Philosopher stone that is 100% confirmed as craftable by Joe (because he already created and used one, when he separated his body from Tetra) is the Full Metal Alchemist one. That's what he used the souls for.

Altyre · Mar 17, 2022

LordRoustabout said:
The Survey that existed within her constructed body was no less Survey than the version that was housed within the upgraded computer core. In fact, the problem wasn't that the versions were in conflict. It was that they were expecting to be in conflict, but constantly finding themselves on the same page, so to speak. They were constantly sending updates, confirmations, and reports to each other, most of which the other copy had either already deduced or was at most a few steps away from confirming. They had each run scenario analysis for the other copy going rogue, including the potential of entreating support from me to resolve the issue. They both reached the exact same conclusion.

Lmao at this.

"Look we all know I'm on your side and I love you, but that bitch-"
points at self
"-I dont trust her."

BarbaCoPut · Mar 17, 2022

Kalmathon said:
All that I'm saying is I want to see Joe German-Suplex Behemoth, ok???

Joe Mechas are the point of hitting Behemont with the pinky finger and making it go weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeePlin. Like TeamRocket

dxd3895 said:
Oh no. Wonder how it will go when Survey reveals Parian can fully "Master" Garment.

Parian wouldn't be able to "Master" Garment, but she could "Master" bothe her "body" (the dresses) and her real body (the gloves)... But she proabbly wouldn't know Garment resides in the gloves, furthermore, Garment's fabrikinetic powers would remain active even if the gloves are being controlled, so she could fight Parian by moving other clothes.

SoulShdw said:
Survey has shown pre-meeting that she can alter her appearance to be less... shocking.

Less shocking Survey is still pant-wetting hot, regardless of sexual preference.

Rhyasial said:
How did we miss such a dangerous cape right in front of us?

- Oh no, it's March all over again.

SoulShdw said:
Depends on how much Joe has shared about his past with 'the kids'.

Remember that Survey was "present" or at least listening in, for everything Joe said after the warehouse fight

tvo770 said:
Lung decided to kill the Undersiders with no reason given in canon.

They had stolen from his Casino, brutal, but expected. Coil wanted them to gain notoriety.

SilentMech · Mar 17, 2022

Brainstorm813 said:
Atlas tech covers a wide branch of magitech, most of which haven't been explained in the source material. But he has multiple methods of creating Philosopher Stones, all of which differ slightly from each other, and Homunculi. But he is never going to attempt the latter.

I think they just want Joe to have his own Black Barrel which is a shotgun able to actually kill anything in Fate. The only downside to it is the ammo is limited. As in only three shells were made in a thousand years. The real kicker is basically everyone at a certain level of importance knows it exists, which means Atlas considers it a door sentry level of weapon.

_AlphaBetSouP · Mar 17, 2022

Nimeroni said:
Isn't those secret ~~tech~~ magic of various mage family or something ? Why would Joe know them ?

I'm pretty sure that when Joe talk about "making Philosopher stones that are all subtly different", he was talking about the various Philosopher stones from the different worlds his perks came from. They are all called "Philosopher stone", but they work in different ways because they come from different rules.

Anyway, the only Philosopher stone that is 100% confirmed as craftable by Joe (because he already created and used one, when he separated his body from Tetra) is the Full Metal Alchemist one. That's what he used the souls for.

Atlas tech is from the Atlas Institution/Academy, one of the 3 major branches of the Mage Association famous for their alchemy knowledge and alchemy based technology, such as the Logos React (device that can basically completely record and copy minds, pretty sure it was used to create Add's ((Gray's Rhongomyniad)) Kay personality using his dead body), Hermes and Tri-Hermes (An alchemical supercomputer and it's storage unit), they also made the Chaldea Security Organisation's Trismegustus and it's successor. And IIRC, Joe has a perk that gives him Nasuverse alchemy knowledge, and it should be effected by Unnatural Skill: Alchemy if he does have it, which could provide him with that knowledge.

@SilentMech No, not really, I'm pretty sure Black Barrel special effect would be useless against everything in the Worm/Wardverse due to them not having any Ether/Grain in them which it relies on for its effect to work, though it probably would do a lot of regular damage. There's also a handgun replica of the Black Barrel not just the regular one.

Nimeroni · Mar 17, 2022

Altyre said:
Lmao at this.
"Look we all know I'm on your side and I love you, but that bitch-"
points at self
"-I dont trust her."

Please bro, I'm stuck (in my loop) !

Ziggrrauglurr said:
Less shocking Survey is still pant-wetting hot, regardless of sexual preference.

It's noted within the text that when in her (evil) lawyer personality, she reduce the symmetry on her face, add minor imperfections and turn her hair blond. With a bit of luck, she won't be so hot that Parian will turn lesbi...

...oh no. Parian will have the hot for Survey, won't she ? That's one way to turn the awkward sorta-ex into something even more awkward (and hilarious for us): having your sorta-ex dating your sorta-daughter.

The Shallow · Mar 17, 2022

Ziggrrauglurr said:
Less shocking Survey is still pant-wetting hot, regardless of sexual preference.

She was described as looking like a supermodel, and by Aisha, so like, really hot but not to that degree.
But as Nimeroni said, Parian's pants will end up wet anyways.

Ziggrrauglurr said:
They had stolen from his Casino, brutal, but expected. Coil wanted them to gain notoriety.

According to Wildbow, Ruby Dreams casino is actually independent of the ABB and it was another hit by the Undersiders that got the ABB after their necks.
But that was WOG. The text itself never actually explains this; heck we still don't know what the Undersiders hit.

_AlphaBetSouP · Mar 17, 2022

The Shallow said:
She was described as looking like a supermodel, and by Aisha, so like, really hot but not to that degree.
But as Nimeroni said, Parian's pants will end up wet anyways.

According to Wildbow, Ruby Dreams casino is actually independent of the ABB and it was another hit by the Undersiders that got the ABB after their necks.
But that was WOG. The text itself never actually explains this; heck we still don't know what the Undersiders hit.

They dressed up in Michael Jackson Smooth Criminal outfits and struck him

Lucifra · Mar 17, 2022

Nimeroni said:
so that the tinkertech is both hard to reproduce and will fail quickly if not maintained.

I could have sworn that Tinkertech needing maintenance and being blackboxed was a result of the tech being essentially hooked into the Shard and missing various vital parts that would be needed for a complete understanding… is that not correct?

dragon_cloud16 said:
But that still does not mean you can hack into the CUI, FBI,CIA, Coil's, and Gesellschaft's databases for the reason of being "bored."

Survey, in the distance: it's not boredom, it's information gathering for a preemptive strike!

ExploerTM · Mar 17, 2022

Altyre said:
Lmao at this.
"Look we all know I'm on your side and I love you, but that bitch-"
points at self
"-I dont trust her."

"Dont trust anyone, even yourself!"
Joe looking at his clones: "No shit"

Gumiho · Mar 17, 2022

ExploerTM said:
"Dont trust anyone, even yourself!"
Joe looking at his clones: "No shit"

Especially yourself!

dragon_cloud16 · Mar 17, 2022

Lucifra said:
Survey, in the distance: it's not boredom, it's information gathering for a preemptive strike!

Aperion/Joe: Then why are you not getting the targeting data on the Slaughterhouse 9 so we can droop Fleet on them with a Titan?

novorek · Mar 17, 2022

Lucifra said:
I could have sworn that Tinkertech needing maintenance and being blackboxed was a result of the tech being essentially hooked into the Shard and missing various vital parts that would be needed for a complete understanding… is that not correct?

I've seen a couple of Wildbow WoG on the blackboxing and the continuing role of the shard in keeping the equipment working.

It seems incomplete because it is an incomplete process. In the background, the shards themselves are taking a hand in things, supplying an extradimensional limb to hold something in place that the tinker isn't wholly aware of, or a power-driven equivalent to a screwdriver in another reality that connects the aforementioned A to B. This is why tinkers have such a terrible time trying to teach others how to build their tech, and why another person can't just sit down at a table and copy everything the tinker does.

source

They also have the power supplementing the building process and tech. You end up with the power sort of reaching out and making sure the circuits in your fancy new chipset don't get too warm during one part, keeping circuits from bleeding together. Also factoring in gravitational waves and magnetic forces and detailed stuff, or even just pumping a bit of extra power into something to keep the gyros spinning. Putting energy into a reactor in the same way your pyrokinesis might put fire in your hands.

source

I suspect that the requirement for continuing maintenance is probably a combination of some of the tech having active shard fiddling as it is being used (in the more advanced stuff that the tinkers can't loan out), and that some of it is made of very fragile, easily broken parts that tinker maintenance keeps touching up (for things like the tinkertech that toybox sells that is generally not as advanced as whatever the tinker's personal stuff would be). Just making a chip that is prone to overheating if it doesn't get a couple molecules regularly tweaked would allow some tinkertech to be used away from the tinker for a brief period of time, but would require regular maintenance and thus prevent the tinker from equipping and army.

supermou3ad · Mar 17, 2022

So i would like to know what everyone thinks about joe's relation with the undersiders will look like in the future, between his non-doormat personnality adjustment, his starting to take everything his passenger tells him with healthy healping heap of salt, the fact that every interaction with tattletale we've seen express his annoyance at her trying to work an angle.

Do you still think that joe genuinly believes that there is a threat out there that only taylor could handle while he could only possibly do it at full strenght after unlocking all the forge's perks.

dragon_cloud16 · Mar 17, 2022

supermou3ad said:
So i would like to know what everyone thinks about joe's relation with the undersiders will look like in the future, between his non-doormat personnality adjustment, his starting to take everything his passenger tells him with healthy healping heap of salt, the fact that every interaction with tattletale we've seen express his annoyance at her trying to work an angle.

Do you still think that joe genuinly believes that there is a threat out there that only taylor could handle while he could only possibly do it at full strenght after unlocking all the forge's perks.

I personally believe that they are going to start to see Joe as more of a leader type if not someone that can protect them. All though Tattletale would be very annoyed since he has changed so much from her initial view so quickly along with how he has a habit of interfering with her power.

And the whole Taylor thing is up in the air for me. Because honestly enough the fight against Scion was more like psychological warfare while swarming him with ants. But Joe has a asset in the Shard's dimension which is much closer to the Golden Idiot's true body. But he doesn't realize that yet.

If anything it would be funny if Joe learns the truth of Scion and casually refers he has something in there that he could use to attack him on that front. If he could get Sting as a sample he could imbue into something then he actually would have a better chance to take out the Space Whale.

Nimeroni · Mar 17, 2022

Lucifra said:
I could have sworn that Tinkertech needing maintenance and being blackboxed was a result of the tech being essentially hooked into the Shard and missing various vital parts that would be needed for a complete understanding… is that not correct?

@novorek cut my job for me, through he missed one :

The reason it's not easily or consistently replicated is because the shard is handling details and working on a level that we can't track or record, and may be plugging itself in to serve functions behind the scenes. That's not necessarily 'here's the fire for your fire lance' but can be keeping levels in balance, monitoring wavelengths, or controlling something that'd otherwise be random.

At the same time, it also supplies knowledge on upkeep and maintenance, that you don't otherwise get. This often feels intuitive to the tinker.

Video record the build and have a man in a remote lab do everything exactly the same while the tinker counsels via. video call, and you'll likely be missing the shard-as-component aspect. When it doesn't work or misfires then the tinker may end up blaming it on human error, regardless.

Source

That being said, I was basing my "subtle factor during creation" on a Lord Roustabout WOG (and not a Wilbow WOG) :

Tinker tech is a complicated subject. Personally I think that 'tinker' is about as standard a definition as any of the other PRT classifications, meaning that it's a general grouping for what's actually a broad section of abilities. Tinker tech probably ranges from jury rigged normal technology that was put together well to stuff based on impossible concepts that has to be actively facilitated by a shard to function properly.

Generally I would place most or the technology towards the more conventional end, with shards occasionally providing subtle support during the assembly process to let the tech come together. It's still technology, just not something that can normally be made in a home laboratory. That said, there's a spread, probably with a lot of secondary powers that either can't be measured meaningfully or the go completely unnoticed. The important thing is that once the tech is made the shards are usually hands off. They don't prioritize reliability (because of the cycle) so there's no need to sabotage things, though some shards probably actively support their creations. If you are advanced enough (Dragon or Apeiron) you can pull concepts from tinker work, but normal people can barely tell the principles being used.

I do wish tinker tech and the work to replicate it got more attention, but then again there seems to be a general lack of detailed research on capes in general, or there is but it's not in focus during the canon story. Worm from the perspectives of a (non-Cauldron) cape or tinkertech researcher would be an interesting story, since I don't see the scientific community just accepting that cape powers can't be explained and letting up on the search to any degree.

Source

I also swear there was a Lord or Wilbow WOG giving the earth magnetic field as an example, but I can't find it, sorry. To be honest, we lost a lot of WOG indexing duing the discord hack (we are slowly recovering, but Lord is... talkative), and I only found that Lord WOG because someone maintained an impressive list of WOG on TVTropes (thanks to... whoever is keeping that page up to date).

AmberSlime · Mar 17, 2022

Nimeroni said:
I also swear there was a Lord or Wilbow WOG giving the earth magnetic field as an example, but I can't find it, sorry. To be honest, we lost a lot of WOG indexing duing the discord hack (we are slowly recovering, but Lord is... talkative), and I only found that Lord WOG because someone maintained an impressive list of WOG on TVTropes (thanks to... whoever is keeping that page up to date).

The Brockton's Celestial Forge TvTropes page is almost exclusively maintained by a user named Ngamer11.

XenonPrime · Mar 17, 2022

Ah, Alpha Centauri, if I recall correctly they are eventually capable of freezing/compressing time and using it as armour plating or something crazy like that.

Either way, the top tier of that technology tree is pretty terrifying, especially given what they can cram into a rifle.

Psiidmon · Mar 17, 2022

Do we know what the current duration of the Klungo-clone Joes are at the moment? How long are their 20% times?

And are we still at 2 clones total?

AmberSlime · Mar 17, 2022

Psiidmon said:
Do we know what the current duration of the Klungo-clone Joes are at the moment? How long are their 20% times?

And are we still at 2 clones total?

Still two clones, they last for three hours I think, with 20% times of 36 minutes. Once Mixing Mixtures is got, we'll have 8 clones that last for fifteen.

PrinceOfDoom · Mar 17, 2022

I'm honestly surprised no one called me out on my explanation of Sabah and Joe.

But that is the glory of SV I suppose.

Hopefully things will turn out okay there. But I definitely feel like Joe is going to get a kick in the head when Survey identifies Parian. Which she easily will with her sensor suite.

Definitely going to be painful for Joe. And I think Sabah and he are bound for an eventual serious discussion. I hope they can be friends after this. But considering the relationship both have with their triggers and eachother, it might be best to avoid one another.

Still, Fletchette will probably be there which will be fun. Especially with Survey there in her disguise(not as smokingly beautiful as her real form).

Definitely expect a clusterfuck there though.

Looking forward to seeing what happens. Joe has a lot of trauma to still work through to take charge of his life and his purpose.

dragon_cloud16 · Mar 17, 2022

PrinceofDoom, its more like I see the eventual meeting between Joe and Sabah as a step forward for him.

He might stumble at first but I can see this as one of those true steps in him bettering himself. He has things that are going to help him grow as powers and as support in allies. He will have the help of not just his therapist, who I see has more of a need to help support Joe beyond the fact that he is better protected from the Simurgh since he left that white noise machine, but also Tetra, Aisha, Survey, Garment, Tybalt, and Fleet to help him get back on his feet.

And if not then his clones will literaly pull a Kamina and force him to face his problems to get over them.

Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

Voluta indomita

Shallow, Yet Deep

Ruin has found you at last!

Reach heaven through violence!