Why would the existence of racist cops change in Worm/Ward?
Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)
- Thread starter LordRoustabout
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BagFullOfLizards
Some bag, mostly lizards
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The general rule for any speculative fiction is "like the real world unless otherwise specified". So demanding a citation for "cops are often kind of racist" is like demanding a citation for the fact that plumbers and dentists exist in Worm before you'll accept seeing them in a fic. We don't have to prove to you that anything that wasn't mentioned in canon is the same as the real world; if you want to say it's different you're the one who needs to provide proof.
Or are you also going to start arguing that because the specific model of car Joe has was never mentioned in canon, this story is wrong unless we could provide WoG that it was still manufactured on Earth Bet?
I want canon examples or at least instances that actually shown that in Worm, like for a while now I've been hearing the E88 have supporters in the cops or something, which all I'm asking is indication of that, I don't mind being wrong but I do want to see an instances if all of that is true
uju32 actually did pretty well by bringing up some points in their comments so I will give them that
Edit: when they I ever say Worm/Ward there would be a change? Or that they didn't exist?
It's more along the line some mentioning that E88 have supporters in cops as I previously mention, which I try to find for a while but never did see. Among most of the stuff I know about Grue the only indication of issues with authorities was from a WoG on how he dealt with them but it never specified on anything.
Did I ever say anything was different? In many of my comment word for word.
Impressive your the second person that went for it, are you taking notes from the other one?, is wrong to ask for something about story in which I may have possibly miss within the text or just didn't notice unless it clearly pointed by supporting the point with evidence. I mean I probably wasn't clear enough in my intent over this because I just want to know how bad was the cop situation with BB and how constant it is with racism, since we barely get anything from them like at all except for the you know them going up against villains, the only I know so far that did a decent job at it was uju32 with how most colored people dont go to the PRT tho then again there reasons but it's a best example given like this
Which make sense as far it goes which I can agree with and it's canonical enough to make me realize how rare it is tho then again there's Carlos who went to join the PRT within BB, so the problem could just be the place.
Edit: @Lucifra if all your going to say I'm arguing in bad faith just because I want them to support their point from something in text, at least something subtle enough that indicates at it. Then you really don't know me despite at least agreeing with commenter that brought up a point
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At this point I'm convinced that JamesRick29 is arguing in bad faith on the cops topic at the very least.
That was a misinterpretation on my part, I thought you wanted citations for the existence of cops being racist in Worm/Ward canon, rather than the citations being for the E88 having supporters in the cops
Narsauce
The Crucible Shitlord
- Location
- Here, there and everywhere
Realistically, in regards to the topic of racist cops in Brockton Bay, yeah, there are probably racist cops. To say that there are no racist cops because there was never a mention of them in Worm isn't exactly a good argument, as we mostly see the world from the point of view of Taylor. And she rarely interacts with the cops, mostly the PRT.
At the same time, saying Brian didn't go to the PRT/cops for help with his sister solely based on the fact that he was black is probably also not entirely true. There was probably a fair element of a "Do it yourself" Ethic that was involved in his choice to not go. There might've been an element of him wanting more control, control that the PRT and the Wards program wouldn't have afforded. That's mostly speculation though.
On that note, this discussion should end, as it's going nowhere and people are arguing in circles.
At the same time, saying Brian didn't go to the PRT/cops for help with his sister solely based on the fact that he was black is probably also not entirely true. There was probably a fair element of a "Do it yourself" Ethic that was involved in his choice to not go. There might've been an element of him wanting more control, control that the PRT and the Wards program wouldn't have afforded. That's mostly speculation though.
On that note, this discussion should end, as it's going nowhere and people are arguing in circles.
Sorry I wasn't clear and I may have lost myself going too way off on the thing I wanted to actually know. I do acknowledge they exist it's just I don't have a clear picture for it and how much influence it may have. I will endeavor to do better.
Actually you more correct then you think here a WoG on it(don't worry it my last response for this whole topic)
It's that I think this a more of Grue reasoning for not joining the Ward that's all
Then sorry in my part, I won't continue this further.
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You know what I realized? A good compromise between Fleets desire to keep all of his miniature vehicles to scale and Tetras and Tybalts desires to ride trains could possibly be something akin to Railway Guns. Those things are normally large enough to require multiple train tracks and something that requires multiple miniature railway tracks could be large enough to ride conventionally.
Y Draig Gosch
-I====-
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Im confused, do want to fire Tetra like a bullet?
Gumiho
Reach heaven through violence!
Yes, nothing could possibly go wrong with this idea.
Tisaku
Head Chief Thinkomancer
To be fair, The Matrix is arguably better. And after their presumed debut, the 'The' is obligatory.
Yes but that's not why I was suggesting it. You should be fine with just the platform to move things around instead of the whole gun.
Lord has been pretty consistent in calling them "the Matrix"
I was thinking of something more along the lines of "Stellar Band."Celestial Polycule for the name?Celestial Rolodex?
1) As we see in her PoV interlude, Piggot needed explicit parental permission to send 13 year old Vista and 17 year old Clockblocker after the Nine, which very much indicates a need for parental permission for S-class deployments.
15 year old Kid Win's parents refused, so he wasnt deployed.
The point this illustrates: Earth Bet and Brockton Bay in particular may be a fucked up hellhole on the fast lane to armageddon, but there remain all sorts of checks on what a PRT director can legally do, and that doesnt even include the potential for parahumans to sit on their hands or mutiny if they think they are treated unfairly.
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2)Correction: We see Piggot make that threat in canon. We never see it carried out.
For all we know, she thought better of it. Or she went to draft paperwork and Legal laughed her out of the office for attempting to penalize Wards for a PRT-sanctioned operation where they did not disobey orders. Or Human Resources pointed out the catastrophic effects on recruitment and retainment, when Wards can simply apply to be transferred to a different city.
Or Public Relations pointed out the bad look of punishing Wards for responding to a crime scene where they had bad intelligence and got injured on the job. Or Gallant's parents called their lawyers and she blinked.
We dont subsequently see Stalker complaining about the loss of cash to buy broadhead crossbow bolts in her Interlude.
We dont see Vista bitter about Gallant and Aegis being punished after they died. Or Kid Win resentful about his allowance getting cut and being threatened with jailtime.Or Weld commenting on it when he was transferred in from Boston.
Its a government agency, not a dictatorship where the director reigns at their whim and enacts policy on verbal cognizance.
There are regulations and protocols before you can impose administrative punishments.
And capes are valuable enough that they can move to other PRT departments if they dont like you.
This was the scene after the bank
You can either write it off to early installment weirdness, or you can actually believe that Emily Piggot pulled the Wards out of school to respond to a bank robbery, sent them in with faulty intelligence, then stood in front of a bloody, mauled Aegis with a hole through his lung and told him he was getting his pay docked for collateral damage. AND threatened Kid Win with jailtime.
And somehow still had a Ward team by the end of the week.
Not their choice.
As soon as he was 16, he could legally emancipate himself as a mature minor and live where he wants.
Also, WoG here on SV:
It's sorta kinda permanent. You think they're just going to let you leave, when you've seen the faces of local heroes? When you've seen behind the curtain and have seen dirty laundry aired (like how someone could comment on Kid Win's unofficial weapon, for example). Or are they going to lean super heavily on you until you agree that maybe you could compromise and move to a small town with 2-3 capes and minimal activity, or let you go but maintain weekly visits and more oversight and more regulation?
Joining the Wards/Protectorate is a big deal. I mean, you're signing up for partial school days, heavy oversight, testing, and all that. Brian is helping to deal with Aisha the hellion, and maybe for a time, he just can't see himself having that time to set aside to deal with official stuff.
Look at things from his perspective. If he signs up, he's adopting this more regimented, official lifestyle, and he's seen how his dad has struggled to deal with Aisha from the same vantage point. Once he confines himself, limits himself, then that just gives Aisha more leeway to mess with him or go do her own thing. If he's stuck with official stuff to do, what can he do if Aisha recognizes that and decides that every time she's going to run away, she's going to hop on the first bus out of town?
Could the PRT deal with that? Maybe. Probably. Could they give him leeway? Bend rules or pull resources, as part of his bargaining with them to join? From Brian's standpoint, even if he's cynical about it, I imagine he imagines they could.
But Brian has to weigh the negatives against the positives, and keep in mind that he's dealt with the 'system' for a time (CPS and Aisha and his parents), and even if he's more like his dad than his mom, pay attention to the small details - he does martial arts but doesn't stick with one class. He's in school but he's doing it online, more freeform. He walks his own path, he doesn't subscribe to much - he could theoretically ditch the Undersiders at any time. Less so with the PRT.
If it goes wrong, he can't back out easily.
It's likely he didn't just jump into high profile burglary for high profile clients. Smaller jobs, smaller stuff, to cover Aisha's bail or help his dad pay for something to keep things more copacetic in the household. Maybe he found he was setting money aside, he started thinking about looking after Aisha himself, things scaled up, and then he found the Undersiders (or the Undersiders found him).
Edit - this is why I'm reading the let's read and discussion - I'm looking at fleshing out Brian a bit more in the rewrite/polished version, and I'd thought about this stuff but writing this out it dawned on me how little I'd shared.
Joining the Wards/Protectorate is a big deal. I mean, you're signing up for partial school days, heavy oversight, testing, and all that. Brian is helping to deal with Aisha the hellion, and maybe for a time, he just can't see himself having that time to set aside to deal with official stuff.
Look at things from his perspective. If he signs up, he's adopting this more regimented, official lifestyle, and he's seen how his dad has struggled to deal with Aisha from the same vantage point. Once he confines himself, limits himself, then that just gives Aisha more leeway to mess with him or go do her own thing. If he's stuck with official stuff to do, what can he do if Aisha recognizes that and decides that every time she's going to run away, she's going to hop on the first bus out of town?
Could the PRT deal with that? Maybe. Probably. Could they give him leeway? Bend rules or pull resources, as part of his bargaining with them to join? From Brian's standpoint, even if he's cynical about it, I imagine he imagines they could.
But Brian has to weigh the negatives against the positives, and keep in mind that he's dealt with the 'system' for a time (CPS and Aisha and his parents), and even if he's more like his dad than his mom, pay attention to the small details - he does martial arts but doesn't stick with one class. He's in school but he's doing it online, more freeform. He walks his own path, he doesn't subscribe to much - he could theoretically ditch the Undersiders at any time. Less so with the PRT.
If it goes wrong, he can't back out easily.
It's likely he didn't just jump into high profile burglary for high profile clients. Smaller jobs, smaller stuff, to cover Aisha's bail or help his dad pay for something to keep things more copacetic in the household. Maybe he found he was setting money aside, he started thinking about looking after Aisha himself, things scaled up, and then he found the Undersiders (or the Undersiders found him).
Edit - this is why I'm reading the let's read and discussion - I'm looking at fleshing out Brian a bit more in the rewrite/polished version, and I'd thought about this stuff but writing this out it dawned on me how little I'd shared.
Let's Read Worm (Finished)
It's sorta kinda permanent. You think they're just going to let you leave, when you've seen the faces of local heroes? When you've seen behind the curtain and have seen dirty laundry aired (like how someone could comment on Kid Win's unofficial weapon, for example). Or are they going to lean...
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
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@LordRoustabout
The more I read this the more confused I got.
Why? Why are they saying that they HAVE to escalate. Why can't they go back to robbing jewelry stores.
I never understood the Canon Trend of never going back to small time stuff.
You can always deescalate.
Seriously nothing is stopping them from going back to robbing Banks or other similar scale stuff.
All I hear is them going: "It would be easier and People would be more frightened". Which is an argument for more small time stuff NOT against it.
Is that the Parahuman Conflict Drive at its strongest? Instead of going back to smaller less rewarding fights to enter more risky and dangerous Situations.
Or is that just Earth Bet Culture at it's finest like no one can envision Jack Slash going up to a Cashier and then robbing them blind? Or Eidolon helping an Old Person over the Street? Or Apeiron making a Contract with a 4 year old to play Patty Cake for a few hours in return for a hug of appreciation?
I mean seriously if it was just as a means to an End, like for example someone doing Crime for Money and thus obviously wanting more high profile Jobs then yeah it makes a lot of sense to get more and more escalating.
Not to forget Ideological Backgrounds who profit a lot from more attention.
But for Parahumans who are very much fine or for whom it would simple be more optimal to lay low (Regent, Bitch, ... Apple, etc.) going back to small time Stuff should be Ideal. They still get a more severe response sure, but that does not seem to make lower scale stuff unthinkable to return to. Just a lesser Conflict to Reward Ratio.
It's far too late so maybe I am having a continued brain fart but this just doesn't make any sense to me no matter how I look at it.
P.S. How do you intend to handle the Aura Danger Sense? Canon itself is really vague on how it works and it might even be one of the extremely advanced applications that take a long time to master.
The Canon Cast (except Jaune) have had Aura for years and are being dedicatedly trained in its usage by Professionals and they still don't use it much beyond basic Strength Enhancement.
And how does the Danger Sense work exactly? Spiderman Style with different Strength that shows how great the Danger is? An informal Awareness that simply puts you in your highest State of Alert? Will mastering the technique change its Strength or simply make it more reliable?
The more I read this the more confused I got.
Why? Why are they saying that they HAVE to escalate. Why can't they go back to robbing jewelry stores.
I never understood the Canon Trend of never going back to small time stuff.
You can always deescalate.
Seriously nothing is stopping them from going back to robbing Banks or other similar scale stuff.
All I hear is them going: "It would be easier and People would be more frightened". Which is an argument for more small time stuff NOT against it.
Is that the Parahuman Conflict Drive at its strongest? Instead of going back to smaller less rewarding fights to enter more risky and dangerous Situations.
Or is that just Earth Bet Culture at it's finest like no one can envision Jack Slash going up to a Cashier and then robbing them blind? Or Eidolon helping an Old Person over the Street? Or Apeiron making a Contract with a 4 year old to play Patty Cake for a few hours in return for a hug of appreciation?
I mean seriously if it was just as a means to an End, like for example someone doing Crime for Money and thus obviously wanting more high profile Jobs then yeah it makes a lot of sense to get more and more escalating.
Not to forget Ideological Backgrounds who profit a lot from more attention.
But for Parahumans who are very much fine or for whom it would simple be more optimal to lay low (Regent, Bitch, ... Apple, etc.) going back to small time Stuff should be Ideal. They still get a more severe response sure, but that does not seem to make lower scale stuff unthinkable to return to. Just a lesser Conflict to Reward Ratio.
It's far too late so maybe I am having a continued brain fart but this just doesn't make any sense to me no matter how I look at it.
P.S. How do you intend to handle the Aura Danger Sense? Canon itself is really vague on how it works and it might even be one of the extremely advanced applications that take a long time to master.
The Canon Cast (except Jaune) have had Aura for years and are being dedicatedly trained in its usage by Professionals and they still don't use it much beyond basic Strength Enhancement.
And how does the Danger Sense work exactly? Spiderman Style with different Strength that shows how great the Danger is? An informal Awareness that simply puts you in your highest State of Alert? Will mastering the technique change its Strength or simply make it more reliable?
I think the idea is that they're now a big enough deal that the response to any crime they commit will be disproportionate to what they're actually doing.
Before they knocked over jewelry stores and got no one, now they'll have protectorate heavy hitters combing the area as soon as they can.
The argument for escalating is that since they have to take big league risk on any job they should pick those that have big league pay outs too.
Not that this is particularly smart, since it implicitly relies on them finding a new equilibrium and they seem to have significantly outpaced their own competence in an organizational sense.
A certain element also seems like an excuse to me, in that Tattletale and possibly Grue want more power, so they're presenting an argument for why they should try to solidify their claim as an important group instead of ignoring it to the members of their team least interested in going along with it.
AntaeusTheGiant
Child of Gaea
- Location
- Lawrence, KS
It could be that she is just saying that to play into what she wants Brian to believe she thinks. Personally, I don't think she has any long term plans at all for the Undersiders, that she is planning on splitting far away the minute Coil falls. What she does want to do, though, is have a large part to do with that fall, and rake in a nice and very healthy financial profit from it, which is why she hasn't taken her Ambrosial Artificer tech and left already.
But actually, it kind of is his fault, isn't it? He was so angry at his passenger over it's amusement and lack of concern over the bank job, that he ignored it when it tried to warn him about Dinah. I don't know if his various intelligence and mental boosting perks will allow him to remember the following scene precisely enough for him to feel as guilty as he should, but if he had paid attention he would have known that amber alert he dismissed as unimportant was actually far more important than that stupid bank job, with the possible exception of the Aegislash.
I would argue that Joe is distanced enough from Dinah's kidnapping that he really can't be blamed for it, or be found at fault. The bank attack was going to happen whether he was there or not, and while he may or may not have suspected that the bank job was a distraction, holding him responsible for an entirely separate crime across town Is a bit of a stretch.
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The blame is in not listening his thinker power when it truly mattered, through I think we can cut the guy some slack considering he just learned that his passengers... doesn't share his morality.
The passenger is gonna be sending some real smug you should have listened vibes to Joe the moment he realizes that the whole Dinah kidnapping was what worried it and that Joe fucking ignored that pretty blatant warning with the amber alert newscast. Joe's gonna feel extremely guilty the moment he realizes that too.
- Location
- Auckland
I think that you meant "not listening to his thinker power".
And here is The Celestial Tome.
And here is The Celestial Tome.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Things being what they are, the Department of Labor would be ALL over Piggot's ass the second one of the kids grumbled about losing out on thousands of dollars in unpaid labor. Maybe not Dean's, because they were pressuring him to focus on the family business, or Vista's who she barely seems to interact with, or Dennis who has a multitude of worries, or Sophia who is trying not to draw outside attention on her activities, or... okay, so maybe the ENE Department is just a perfect storm of ignorance about the law and Piggot actually knowing well ahead of time that her Wards (who she took responsibility for in her Department away from Armsmaster) are so fucked up and in a bad place that she can exploit them to deal with some of the fines being thrown her way deploying children like some kind of second strike team.
A lot of things don't make sense in Worm. It's all supposed to imply that there is some background human deficiency or malice behind something that defies the nominal self interested social contract that keep society together by threatening you to conform with procedure and upholding the rights of other to protect your own, but just comes across as dumb.
While you can conjure up your own explanations for why Piggot got away with X, remember, she didn't. Even in canon, it all falls away from her grasp, but here I'm this story we get a more point to point breakdown of the consequences of her decision making process on the scale of YEARS of appeasement policy and trying to always obtain leverage over people as opposed to trying to cooperate and genuinely compromise to achieve goals.
That is genuinely more interesting than consequences seemingly only manifesting once Thinkers say 'now you can be eliminated by me releasing this information to the right person at the right time' ala canon. Why?
Because in BCF, Thinkers are told 'get fucked' almost immediately upon the end of the first major arc, and it never seem to stop from there. It almost becomes an accidental deconstruction of that aspect of Worm, where all the actually important stuff happens until a Thinker gets mad and takes their ball home.
In BCF, Thinkers think they have control and engineered a situations outcome before actually seeing that outcome come to pass, and pay for it with at the very least some publicly embarrassing 'egg on my face'. A lot because of Forge rolls altering the odds in a straight up confrontation, but also because the logistical issues of Thinkers still being (for the most part) fallible, biased, squishy and exhausted.
Like for example, March's power is stupidly plot device level strong, yet the effort to do something requires an ever escalating set of steps and complexity that the people required to carry it out have no hope of keeping up with, especially as it requires they also maintain just as high tempo battle plans as herself, with less confidence and skill. And the coercive measures become less and less effective.
Contessa can shortcut a path straight to the optimum resolution, except when she gets a big fat blindspot, in which case it is 'wait for more data' as we see ad infinitum in BCF for why Cauldron does nothing even after Joe causes the city to suddenly gain a population of Capes well over a hundred, and probably coming closer to two hundred than the opposite every day. You know, numbers that typically appear at Endbringer fights.
Because the Fic is accidentally a giant fucking 'take that!' to broad-spectrum schemer powers.
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