Blue VS Blood: Arresting the Undead (also Trying and Incarcerating them)

krinsbez · Jul 22, 2016

So, I've been turning this idea around in my head for awhile; it's so deceptively simple, I'm astonished I haven't seen it in use before.

THE PREMISE:

A Master Vampire based in a major metropolis (I'm thinking NYC since it's the only major city I have experience with, but another could do just as well) is fighting off an attempt by a rival to dethrone him. He is losing. Badly.

Rather than accept defeat, he decides to overturn the entire applecart, and proceeds to walk into a police station and turn himself in, thereby breaking the Masquerade, and setting off the weirdest police operation in history.

THE GOAL:

To try to ascertain how the legal system handles the existence of vampires, assuming that the decision is made to treat them as people, and therefore being subject to the same laws as much as possible.

VAMPIRE RULES:

As generic as possible (since the vampires themselves aren't the focus). IE, Vampires are strong, fast, bulletproof, fly, can turn into bats/rats/wolves, have mesmeric powers, get poofed by sunlight and holy water, don't have reflection, dislike garlic and crosses, need to feed on blood periodically, can turn victims into more vampires, can be killed via decapitation, wooden stakes through the heart, and being set on fire.

Thoughts?

DayDreamer · Jul 22, 2016

My problem is that your premise (the cops and the legal system becoming convinced that the supernatural is real and choosing to enforce their laws on it) is much more interesting that some kind of fiat-based "they're convinced, they're treating vampires as people, and now we're gonna try them for stuff."

Like, this would be an incredible shift in terms of understanding man's place in the world. Decisions would need to be made on the highest level, both domestically and internationally. There'd be lobbying by vampire factions trying to make some kind of deal in exchange for preferential treatment, along with anarchists who think human civilization should burn before its laws should apply. I'm honestly not sure what your goal is: if we're already applying as much of our laws to vampires as possible, it should be relatively self-explanatory how we treat them: we try pretty much all of them for murder (assuming we have evidence), and then attempt to incarcerate.

krinsbez · Jul 22, 2016

DayDreamer said:
My problem is that your premise (the cops and the legal system becoming convinced that the supernatural is real and choosing to enforce their laws on it) is much more interesting that some kind of fiat-based "they're convinced, they're treating vampires as people, and now we're gonna try them for stuff."

What's the difference?

]Like, this would be an incredible shift in terms of understanding man's place in the world. Decisions would need to be made on the highest level, both domestically and internationally. There'd be lobbying by vampire factions trying to make some kind of deal in exchange for preferential treatment, along with anarchists who think human civilization should burn before its laws should apply.

I'm...not seeing how my premise excludes that?

I'm honestly not sure what your goal is: if we're already applying as much of our laws to vampires as possible, it should be relatively self-explanatory how we treat them: we try pretty much all of them for murder (assuming we have evidence), and then attempt to incarcerate.

Right, so how do you go about doing so? I mean can you convict someone for a murder committed centuries ago? Is it Cruel and Unusual punishment to give an immortal a life sentence? If someone kills a vampire, is that murder? Is the fact that vampires need to feed on human blood to survive a valid defense?

Not to mention the logistics of the thing. How does one go about arresting and incarcerating vampires?

DayDreamer · Jul 22, 2016

krinsbez said:
What's the difference?

In the former, they're still trying to figure everything out. Is this guy delusional? Is he an alien? Are vampires actually people, or are they monsters? Do we need to kick this up the chain? Are we about to be under attack by other vampires? Are there werewolves too? What the hell is magic?

In the latter, that stuff has been settled.

krinsbez said:
I'm...not seeing how my premise excludes that?

It certainly doesn't seem to be the focus of the story, at least how you presented it. The government and society are not the legal system, and you seemed most/only interested in exploring the legal ramifications.

krinsbez said:
Right, so how do you go about doing so? I mean can you convict someone for a murder committed centuries ago? Is it Cruel and Unusual punishment to give an immortal a life sentence? If someone kills a vampire, is that murder? Is the fact that vampires need to feed on human blood to survive a valid defense?

Not to mention the logistics of the thing. How does one go about arresting and incarcerating vampires?

If you've already declared that vampires are gonna be treated as people.... they'll be treated as people? Murder has a statute of limitations, so they'll be clear. A clever lawyer might argue that life imprisonment is cruel and unusual, and they'll probably lose but who knows. If someone kills one that'll be murder, because you already established that vampires are people. The fact that vampires need to feed on human blood is not a valid defense because of donations/blood banks/relevant caselaw.

Like... there are interesting stories here, but I think your approach is a bit off. Like, the first vampire trial would be a fun urban supernatural horror/comedy short story/novel, centered on the defense attorney. Or the police commissioner when the vampire surrenders himself. Or the president overseeing it.

I just don't think that the logistics are ultimately that interesting, except as a minor detail in a surrounding story.

krinsbez · Jul 22, 2016

DayDreamer said:
In the former, they're still trying to figure everything out. Is this guy delusional? Is he an alien? Are vampires actually people, or are they monsters? Do we need to kick this up the chain? Are we about to be under attack by other vampires? Are there werewolves too? What the hell is magic?

In the latter, that stuff has been settled.

I think you may be reading too much into "assuming the decision is made to treat vampires as people". The intent is to sidestep the common habit in Broken Masquerades to decide that vampires are beyond the conventional Justice system, and feel a need to create new organizations to deal with instead of having the existing justice system adapt to deal with it.

Basically, what I'm going for is "we have been made aware that there is a threat to the people of this city. We need to deal with this threat, and figure out how as we go along".

It certainly doesn't seem to be the focus of the story, at least how you presented it. The government and society are not the legal system, and you seemed most/only interested in exploring the legal ramifications.

Hmm, perhaps legal system was not the word; justice system, is probably more accurate.

If you've already declared that vampires are gonna be treated as people.... they'll be treated as people? Murder has a statute of limitations, so they'll be clear. A clever lawyer might argue that life imprisonment is cruel and unusual, and they'll probably lose but who knows. If someone kills one that'll be murder, because you already established that vampires are people. The fact that vampires need to feed on human blood is not a valid defense because of donations/blood banks/relevant caselaw.

I'm not convinced it's as cut-and-dried as you seem to think.

Like... there are interesting stories here, but I think your approach is a bit off. Like, the first vampire trial would be a fun urban supernatural horror/comedy short story/novel, centered on the defense attorney. Or the police commissioner when the vampire surrenders himself. Or the president overseeing it.

I just don't think that the logistics are ultimately that interesting, except as a minor detail in a surrounding story.

This is a Worldbuilding thread, is it not?

Acatalepsy · Jul 22, 2016

krinsbez said:
I think you may be reading too much into "assuming the decision is made to treat vampires as people". The intent is to sidestep the common habit in Broken Masquerades to decide that vampires are beyond the conventional Justice system, and feel a need to create new organizations to deal with instead of having the existing justice system adapt to deal with it.

We have separate parts of the justice system and police to handle all kinds of different stuff, dude, from sex crimes to money laundering to terrorism. "There are literal supernatural vampires" probably means that you're gonna get a new organization or two, on top of a bunch of new laws.

krinsbez said:
Basically, what I'm going for is "we have been made aware that there is a threat to the people of this city. We need to deal with this threat, and figure out how as we go along".

The implications for vampires exist go beyond the city, is the problem here. The framing has this as part of a police operation, affecting a single city rather than an international social and political earthquake.

Sucal · Jul 23, 2016

krinsbez said:
As generic as possible (since the vampires themselves aren't the focus). IE, Vampires are strong, fast, bulletproof, fly, can turn into bats/rats/wolves, have mesmeric powers, get poofed by sunlight and holy water, don't have reflection, dislike garlic and crosses, need to feed on blood periodically, can turn victims into more vampires, can be killed via decapitation, wooden stakes through the heart, and being set on fire.

"Mandatory naked parades at noon for everyone. Non attenders will be forced to consume a liter of holy water"

krinsbez · Jul 24, 2016

Acatalepsy said:
We have separate parts of the justice system and police to handle all kinds of different stuff, dude, from sex crimes to money laundering to terrorism. "There are literal supernatural vampires" probably means that you're gonna get a new organization or two, on top of a bunch of new laws.

New laws, yes.

New task forces and such, yes.

Anti-vampire bounty hunters, probably not.

I dunno, I like the idea of the system forcing the vampires to adapt to us rather than t'other way 'round.

The implications for vampires exist go beyond the city, is the problem here. The framing has this as part of a police operation, affecting a single city rather than an international social and political earthquake.

It's a start.

And while it'd be a big deal, I don't believe it'll be "end of civilization as we know it"

Blue VS Blood: Arresting the Undead (also Trying and Incarcerating them)

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