So the basic premise of this idea is that Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood/Manga...
Amestris (Fullmetal Alchemist) and the Fire Nation (A:TLA) ISOTed to OTL 1920
- Thread starter King Washington
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King Washington
Semi-Depressed Lurker
- Location
- Indiana
So the basic premise of this idea is that Amestris from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood/Manga and the Fire Nation from A:TLA are ISOTed to our OTL Earth, on the 2nd of April 1920. Alchemy/Alkahestry now functions in our world and children born after the ISOT will have a small chance of being able to bend a certain element.
The ISOTs occur just after Hohenheim's death and immediately following Zuko being crowned Fire Lord. Amestris finds itself in the middle of the Northwestern United States and the Fire Nation (along with it's Earth Kingdom colonies) is now located in the South Pacific.
So what are the likely ramifications of the ISOTs and how drastically is history going to be derailed? How do Amestris and the Fire Nation cope with being thrown into the world of the early 1920s?
What does bending and alchemy mean for the future of society?
The ISOTs occur just after Hohenheim's death and immediately following Zuko being crowned Fire Lord. Amestris finds itself in the middle of the Northwestern United States and the Fire Nation (along with it's Earth Kingdom colonies) is now located in the South Pacific.
So what are the likely ramifications of the ISOTs and how drastically is history going to be derailed? How do Amestris and the Fire Nation cope with being thrown into the world of the early 1920s?
What does bending and alchemy mean for the future of society?
- Location
- East of Sun, West of Moon
I'm guessing we hand-wave the potential environmental impact of both events, since you want to explore the human reactions rather than the geological and meteorological impact of an ISOT event.
The US is going to have opinions on a sovereign state appearing within their borders, opinions complicated by them being flush with the success of the Great War and the relatively recent push to the West. It's made even worse by the fact that Amestris probably speaks German...
Amestris, being led by Roy Mustang, will probably have opinions as well, in particular as regards the US' treatment of everyone not WASP. And any potential negotiated settlement between the Amestrians and the US will probably hit a teeny, tiny snag when the Amestrians find out about the US' track record for actually honoring treatises, especially with 'Native Nations'.
The Fire Nation is better off in some ways, given that they clearly have their own space and no immediately hostile neighbors - but they also lag behind technologically, and unless you highball the feats - specifically the durability feats - of Benders, they might be in for trouble.
The key will be Japan's reaction, because at this time the Japanese are actually allied with the British, who are the premiere naval power at the time. And, not to forget, heavily invested in South and East Asia. Unfortunately, Japan at the time has an invalid emperor in seclusion, and a young and bold prince as acting regent. The military haven't launched their coup quite yet, I believe, but the appearance of a rival nation with obvious supernatural power could cause the building tensions between the civilian and military leadership to flare up much faster, for better or worse.
I can't even begin to speculate what will happen once the secrets of Alchemy begin to proliferate, but I can guess that children being born with the ability to Bend elements via Martial Arts will make South-East Asia... Interesting, in the Ancient Chinese Curse sense, for the colonial powers.
Boxer Rebellion Two; Elemental Boogaloo!
The US is going to have opinions on a sovereign state appearing within their borders, opinions complicated by them being flush with the success of the Great War and the relatively recent push to the West. It's made even worse by the fact that Amestris probably speaks German...
Amestris, being led by Roy Mustang, will probably have opinions as well, in particular as regards the US' treatment of everyone not WASP. And any potential negotiated settlement between the Amestrians and the US will probably hit a teeny, tiny snag when the Amestrians find out about the US' track record for actually honoring treatises, especially with 'Native Nations'.
The Fire Nation is better off in some ways, given that they clearly have their own space and no immediately hostile neighbors - but they also lag behind technologically, and unless you highball the feats - specifically the durability feats - of Benders, they might be in for trouble.
The key will be Japan's reaction, because at this time the Japanese are actually allied with the British, who are the premiere naval power at the time. And, not to forget, heavily invested in South and East Asia. Unfortunately, Japan at the time has an invalid emperor in seclusion, and a young and bold prince as acting regent. The military haven't launched their coup quite yet, I believe, but the appearance of a rival nation with obvious supernatural power could cause the building tensions between the civilian and military leadership to flare up much faster, for better or worse.
I can't even begin to speculate what will happen once the secrets of Alchemy begin to proliferate, but I can guess that children being born with the ability to Bend elements via Martial Arts will make South-East Asia... Interesting, in the Ancient Chinese Curse sense, for the colonial powers.
Boxer Rebellion Two; Elemental Boogaloo!
Cloak&Dagger
Definitely Insane
Amestris will probably fight the US, but they might win. They seem to have WW2 level military forces, and their wizards could be devastating coupled with their other advantages.
Then again, the US will be getting their own wizards ASAP, and the Spanish Flu will smash Amestris pretty hard.
The result of the war probably depends on the population of Amestris.
Then again, the US will be getting their own wizards ASAP, and the Spanish Flu will smash Amestris pretty hard.
The result of the war probably depends on the population of Amestris.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
The Amestris miltary's weaponry seems to use inspired by world war one weaponry rather than world war II but is completely lacking in either a air force or navy and barring some primitive tanks is also completely lacking in cavalry instead being a primarily infantry based force as far as I can tell.
- Location
- Under a Rock
The fire nation could maybe maintain its independence. They are far from Japan and the US, they have huge mountains to retreat into, and can field a primitive navy and airforce. But even if they could, their best bet is to play politics and ally with Japan or the US.
Amestris is in deep, deep, shit. Particularly since NW US has people in it. Not many people, but enough. Those people are displaced, vanished, or still there. None of those will fly with the US.
But Amestris will beat the 1920's USA if it comes to war. They have better artillery, better tanks, more industry, and Alchemists. The Alchemists might take time to get settled, and tune their powers to the tectonic plates. But once they do, its only a matter of time. And the people of Amestris have lived in a war oriented fascist state for years, they will be more than willing to keep the economy on war footing. While their population is smaller, its not that much smaller, just 50 million vs 100 million.
They will eventually make peace with the US. They won't want to rule it, and its so much bigger than they are it would be a pain to conquer.
The costs of this war will be disastrous, and if everyone gets lucky, a peace deal will be reached before the armies start marching.
Amestris is in deep, deep, shit. Particularly since NW US has people in it. Not many people, but enough. Those people are displaced, vanished, or still there. None of those will fly with the US.
But Amestris will beat the 1920's USA if it comes to war. They have better artillery, better tanks, more industry, and Alchemists. The Alchemists might take time to get settled, and tune their powers to the tectonic plates. But once they do, its only a matter of time. And the people of Amestris have lived in a war oriented fascist state for years, they will be more than willing to keep the economy on war footing. While their population is smaller, its not that much smaller, just 50 million vs 100 million.
They will eventually make peace with the US. They won't want to rule it, and its so much bigger than they are it would be a pain to conquer.
The costs of this war will be disastrous, and if everyone gets lucky, a peace deal will be reached before the armies start marching.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
I have doubts that they have superior artillery given the overall general tech level seems to be largely world war one era barring some oddities the oddly advanced prototype tanks, the Amestris forces though seem to be predominately infantry dominated though and aircraft of any type seems to be a foreign concept to them.
I'd lean towards the main advantages Amestris would have would be the prototype tanks which would be superior to anything existing in this time and their alchemists.
On the US side, the US army apparently had a air power of 9,358 aircraft in 1920 which was admittedly decrease from 24,115 in 1919 which both would give the ability to view opposing forces and movements from the air as well as the ability to attack from said above if only light bombs and strafing and horse cavalry in sizable numbers which could be used both for flanking the enemy infantry and deployment as mobile light infantry as needed.
The US would also have the advantage that its industrial and agricultural heartlands as well as many if not most of its major population centers are far beyond where Amestris could likely ever hope to realistically threaten in a reasonable amount of time before the US returned to full mobilization.
I'd lean towards the main advantages Amestris would have would be the prototype tanks which would be superior to anything existing in this time and their alchemists.
On the US side, the US army apparently had a air power of 9,358 aircraft in 1920 which was admittedly decrease from 24,115 in 1919 which both would give the ability to view opposing forces and movements from the air as well as the ability to attack from said above if only light bombs and strafing and horse cavalry in sizable numbers which could be used both for flanking the enemy infantry and deployment as mobile light infantry as needed.
The US would also have the advantage that its industrial and agricultural heartlands as well as many if not most of its major population centers are far beyond where Amestris could likely ever hope to realistically threaten in a reasonable amount of time before the US returned to full mobilization.
- Location
- Singapore
I'm not really looking deeply into things, so correct me if I'm wrong, but a cursory look tells me this.
1. The Fire Nation gets put into Japanese/British orbit. While Firebending is an advantage that Earth nations don't have, the technological disparity is just too big. 'Modern' war is industrial in nature, and relatively small groups of people (at least compared to total population) just won't turn the tide of war. That's not to say the likely economic disparity between the Fire Nation and Japan/Britain. Iirc the Fire Nation relied pretty heavily on trade, trade that not longer exists due to being ISOTed.
2. I don't really know what American policy was then, but I'll assume that them suddenly finding an independent state in the middle of it to put it lightly, not well. While Amestris may have some pretty cool toys like the prototype tanks, automail and State Alchemists, their technological level is likely around that of America's, and when that happens, it comes down the their war machine again. While Amestris would likely have a more efficient one, due to them fighting an undeclared war, I don't really think they can compare to America. During WW1, they produced around 40% more equipment then the European Allies combines, though that depends on the kind of equipment. The Flame Alchemist can burn hundreds of people, but a bullet will eventually find its way into his head.
All this is not taking into account that Earth nations would eventually get their own magic users too. Although the sudden appearance of such could cause massive upheaval and religious crisis, the world will bounce back. It always does.
P.S. I may be overestimating the Earth nations here. Idk.
1. The Fire Nation gets put into Japanese/British orbit. While Firebending is an advantage that Earth nations don't have, the technological disparity is just too big. 'Modern' war is industrial in nature, and relatively small groups of people (at least compared to total population) just won't turn the tide of war. That's not to say the likely economic disparity between the Fire Nation and Japan/Britain. Iirc the Fire Nation relied pretty heavily on trade, trade that not longer exists due to being ISOTed.
2. I don't really know what American policy was then, but I'll assume that them suddenly finding an independent state in the middle of it to put it lightly, not well. While Amestris may have some pretty cool toys like the prototype tanks, automail and State Alchemists, their technological level is likely around that of America's, and when that happens, it comes down the their war machine again. While Amestris would likely have a more efficient one, due to them fighting an undeclared war, I don't really think they can compare to America. During WW1, they produced around 40% more equipment then the European Allies combines, though that depends on the kind of equipment. The Flame Alchemist can burn hundreds of people, but a bullet will eventually find its way into his head.
All this is not taking into account that Earth nations would eventually get their own magic users too. Although the sudden appearance of such could cause massive upheaval and religious crisis, the world will bounce back. It always does.
P.S. I may be overestimating the Earth nations here. Idk.
Wouldn't it be more fair and interesting if instead of the fire nation from atla it was the fire nation from korra times on the south pacific plus after season 2 Republic city swapped with hong kong?
Edit or maybe China and Hong Kong minus the Japanese occupied territory swapped with the Earth kingdom and Republic City a month or two before Kuvira attack on Republic City.
Edit or maybe China and Hong Kong minus the Japanese occupied territory swapped with the Earth kingdom and Republic City a month or two before Kuvira attack on Republic City.
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- Location
- The Old Dominion
There was the great northern railroad, which was the northern most US transcontinental railroad part of which would have disappeared but the rest would still be there. Of course its quite possible it would be completely incompatible with Amestris's rail system's gages making it useless to the Amestrisians.
Great Northern Railway (U.S.) - Wikipedia
liberty90
Evil Neoliberal Cat
- Location
- Poland
Sure, but to supply industrial army with one railway... Ugh. To me it still sounds like a logistical hell.
Both Amestris core and US core are too highly populated, I think, to be damaged by any forces with that bottleneck.
They are NOT like the Far Eastern Republic.
Both Amestris core and US core are too highly populated, I think, to be damaged by any forces with that bottleneck.
They are NOT like the Far Eastern Republic.
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- Location
- The Old Dominion
Something else to keep in mind is that the US controls the Panama canal which means it could also ship large quantities of munitions, equipment and men via ships crossing the canal without needing to make the long dangerous journey around south America to reach the west coast its wouldn't exactly be solely on that one rail line or even the other four more southerly transcontinental railways and well much like it has no air power also Amestris apparently has no navy.
- Location
- Florida
I don't think war will happen. Not immediately at least. There will be conflict/skirmishes along the ametrist American boarder and in SE Pacific but not a full blown war until WW2
WW2 is going to be waaaaay different but probably still happen.
Also are spirits a thing and is the Avatar here
WW2 is going to be waaaaay different but probably still happen.
Also are spirits a thing and is the Avatar here
King Washington
Semi-Depressed Lurker
- Location
- Indiana
I wouldn't underestimate the Fire Nation. It's already in industrial nation that among other things managed to produce a entire fleet of Ironclad Zeppelins from a single hot air balloon in an absurdly short period of time if I'm remembering things correctly.
It hasn't been brought up yet, but both Amestris and the Fire Nation seem to be quite gender egalitarian, especially compared to the nations of the 1920s, so maybe that will have some interesting knock on effects.
World War II as we know it is almost certainly going to be butterflied.
Yes and Yes
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- Location
- Under a Rock
Interesting. The avatar is a host unto himself. Provided Aang doesn't get killed in the initial exchange, he should be able to nigh single handedly ensure the fire nation's independence.
Actually, that might even help Amestris maintain its independence, and in the war in the American NW. Aang would want to stop the war, and he might be capable of doing that on his own. Roy would reach out to him, and as the Avatar to end hostilities by erecting barriers and breaking supply lines. Or just glow it up and yell at people until they come to the negotiating table.
- Location
- australia
The thing about alchemy is its a learned skill built up over centuries
Americans might be able to do it now but only those born after the change can do it remember
and it would still take them years and years to fully study the powers and work out how they function.
so the Amestrians have a massive institutional advantage when it comes to alchemy
Also with the spanish flu, considering there are alchemists who specalise in healing
it might be less devasting then in america by a large margin
- Location
- Space, the final frontier.
Folk are talking about Spanish flu.
What about disease from the other side of the fence.
Are you so sure, that different worlds with magic in them, might not have diseases that will wreck local populations?
Possible diseases that only the magic users of those worlds might be able to fix.
Depending on how Amestris is Isoted, there might not even be a conflict.
Think about Canada and the States getting a new neighbouring country.
The effects of the Fire nation will be a flood/tsunami. Replacing water, by putting in a rock/mountain.
So if Amestris displaces land, instead of replacing it, it might just cause earth quakes.
Especially if those countries go to help their neighbours.
What about disease from the other side of the fence.
Are you so sure, that different worlds with magic in them, might not have diseases that will wreck local populations?
Possible diseases that only the magic users of those worlds might be able to fix.
Depending on how Amestris is Isoted, there might not even be a conflict.
Think about Canada and the States getting a new neighbouring country.
The effects of the Fire nation will be a flood/tsunami. Replacing water, by putting in a rock/mountain.
So if Amestris displaces land, instead of replacing it, it might just cause earth quakes.
Especially if those countries go to help their neighbours.
- Location
- Singapore
It's an industrial nation powered by firebending. Due to that, they have no conventional weaponry to speak of, not even a musket. Iirc their most advanced gunpowder technology is that of a bomb. While firebending is probably more efficient then coal/oil, they are far less abundant. They may have an entire fleet of Zeppelins, but they need firebenders to power them. The thing with the Fire Nation is that while they have a very useful resource, they rely too heavily on it, and with it being a limited resource, they need to manage it very carefully, something the Britain/Japan does not need to do.
Anyway, regarding spirits, I can very well see nations developing Task Forces to deal with them. Humans, at least those of Earth, very much would not want to give up their dominance over Earth.
@King Washington, is the Avatar Aang, or will it be some random on Earth (including Amestris and the Fire Nation).
King Washington
Semi-Depressed Lurker
- Location
- Indiana
Aang and the rest of Team Avatar came along with the ISOT. Once Aang kicks the bucket, the Avatar will be some rando from Earth.
Amestris would be a match for the USA. Mainly because of population density and generally similar levels of technology. Yes they may have better tanks, and the USA better planes, but neither on either side is really qualified to be capable of WWII levels of performance and with the limited transportation beyond each nations borders and how poorly that limited transportation net connects to the other nations limited transportation net means that it is unlikely either will make major headway into the other.
I expect there would be a war but with luck it would be over fairly quickly. If not it would be WWII come early, and a hideous loss of life all over.
The fire nation is interesting in that it is probably forty or so years behind others in it's technology, greater than that in firearms. That's a problem. But, it isn't as big a problem as Amestris and the USA. Nobody's land has suddenly been taken over. The Fire nation is both a significant naval power, and interested in trade. And there would be a rush to do so with them. Unless someone jumped to war, which I really doubt would occur given complete lack of knowledge of the extent and locations of the islands to begin with there would only be small local conflicts that would raise tensions but not I think cause a war. This would probably give the fire nation the time to modernize which it would do with a vengeance, as we have seen by the time of Korra. And that's without being able to trade for more modern tech.
Think of Japan in the meji era only with an advantage in that they are already halfway modernized.
My guess is that no nation jumps to war against them before they have a chance to begin closing the technological gap, rearming their warships with smaller guns etc.
So I predict at least a small war between the USA and Amestris, and likely isolated conflicts among the Fire Nation islands but no official war there. Everything else depends on when where and how WWII breaks out.
I expect there would be a war but with luck it would be over fairly quickly. If not it would be WWII come early, and a hideous loss of life all over.
The fire nation is interesting in that it is probably forty or so years behind others in it's technology, greater than that in firearms. That's a problem. But, it isn't as big a problem as Amestris and the USA. Nobody's land has suddenly been taken over. The Fire nation is both a significant naval power, and interested in trade. And there would be a rush to do so with them. Unless someone jumped to war, which I really doubt would occur given complete lack of knowledge of the extent and locations of the islands to begin with there would only be small local conflicts that would raise tensions but not I think cause a war. This would probably give the fire nation the time to modernize which it would do with a vengeance, as we have seen by the time of Korra. And that's without being able to trade for more modern tech.
Think of Japan in the meji era only with an advantage in that they are already halfway modernized.
My guess is that no nation jumps to war against them before they have a chance to begin closing the technological gap, rearming their warships with smaller guns etc.
So I predict at least a small war between the USA and Amestris, and likely isolated conflicts among the Fire Nation islands but no official war there. Everything else depends on when where and how WWII breaks out.
TheLastOne
Person of impeccable tastes (for destruction)
People are consistently underestimating Fire Nation technology.
forums.spacebattles.com
Fire Nation Feat Thread
What are the achievements of the Fire Nation in Avatar: The Last Airbender Technological Industrial Bending ability Size
forums.spacebattles.com
King Washington
Semi-Depressed Lurker
- Location
- Indiana
Realistically, how long would it actually take for Amestris and the Fire Nation to establish contact with each other?
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- Location
- Under a Rock
Amestris has radio. They should be able to pick up on broadcasts reasonably quickly, though they don't speak English, so understanding will be difficult. Once that barrier has been crossed, Roy will probably reach out to them by sending a team of alchemist to go behind American lines and talk to the Fire Nation. They won't have any boats, so they will be making their own out of alchemy.
Realistically, it might take six months to a year. Unless another power interferes and tries to bring them together sooner, for the purpose of making it harder for America to win.
In industrial warfare, FMA alchemists would be invaluable in prototyping and in rapidly changing machine tools. They should be able to rapidly reverse engineer an captured American equipment given that the levels of scientific and engineering knowledge aren't that different.
I think alchemists would be better utilized in war by doing things like producing guns and artillery shells than in blowing things up in the frontline. Though I always thought the show implied that the alchemists doing spectacular stuff on the front line were a minority, and the majority were involved in industrial and agricultural functions.
I think alchemists would be better utilized in war by doing things like producing guns and artillery shells than in blowing things up in the frontline. Though I always thought the show implied that the alchemists doing spectacular stuff on the front line were a minority, and the majority were involved in industrial and agricultural functions.
- Location
- California
Does the fire nation have the earth/fire nation colonies? Because honestly, earth benders would be far more useful in many respects than fire benders--at least in the terms of being flexible. Given the feats we saw at Ba Sing Sei, earth benders could be tremendously useful in a lot of mega projects, which gives the fire nation something to trade immediately, while also making people leery about going after them, since it'll be a while before the limitations of bending become clear.