Alt History ideas, rec and general dicussion thread

Since the Bolsheviks were actually hoping for something like this, how would the Soviet Union have likely developed in a TL where Germany had a successful communist revolution in the immediate aftermath of World War I?
I take it as given that something akin to the Sino-Soviet split happens in a generation tops. The true question is how much of COMINTERN follows Moscow, how much follows Berlin, and how much does the smart thing and goes their own way rather than get yanked around by either.

Heck, one pet idea of mine is sometime in the '30s the various members of Communist International... okay, the first choice might be telling the boys in Moscow "Look, we know the tactical situation on the ground. There is no need to micro-manage things." but if matters continue COMINTERN breaks with Moscow outright.
 
I take it as given that something akin to the Sino-Soviet split happens in a generation tops. The true question is how much of COMINTERN follows Moscow, how much follows Berlin, and how much does the smart thing and goes their own way rather than get yanked around by either.

Heck, one pet idea of mine is sometime in the '30s the various members of Communist International... okay, the first choice might be telling the boys in Moscow "Look, we know the tactical situation on the ground. There is no need to micro-manage things." but if matters continue COMINTERN breaks with Moscow outright.

I find it somewhat unlikely, frankly. The Sino-Soviet split was far more complicated than you're portraying it here, among other problems with the evaluation.

The second paragraph especially is just kinda a weird take on what the Comintern would be if you had a bunch of different communist governments, which is something a lot more like the EU or UN than anything where Moscow would have the ability to micromanage things.

The Comintern became one of several vehicles for Russian influence over parties because none of the parties involved controlled a government or had the 'street cred' of being a successful revolution. In a case where Russia wasn't the only successful revolution, the Comintern would pretty necessarily evolve differently, unless you arbitrarily had nothing involving the Comintern go any differently despite changing one of the most major facts of the Comintern OTL.
 
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The more I learn about Saigo Takamori, like him wanting to start a war with Korea, wanting to put more money into the military instead of railways, and the fact that he's popular among nationalist creeps, the more I'm turned off by him. Like, I can at least understand why he'd be suspicious of the West given their colonialism, but the whole Korea thing showing he was okay with colonialism as long as it benefited him really tarnishes him.

So, the virgin Saigo Takamori vs the Chad Ryoma Sakamoto, I guess is what I'm saying. /jk

Basically the way I see it, nothing good was really going to come from anyone emulating Western methods.

@htgriffin Basically as @The Laurent says, your really not describing the nuance of the Sino-Soviet Split. With the Split proper, regardless of where you fall on who, or what caused it, or when it happened. It was disruption to a political bloc that had one clear leader or at least their model. With this scenario being described, whatever this Communist/Socialist bloc is, it's going to have more room for open disagreement, than anything even remotely close to bitter politicking, mud slinging, and border conflicts of the Split.
 
Basically the way I see it, nothing good was really going to come from anyone emulating Western methods.

@htgriffin Basically as @The Laurent says, your really not describing the nuance of the Sino-Soviet Split. With the Split proper, regardless of where you fall on who, or what caused it, or when it happened. It was disruption to a political bloc that had one clear leader or at least their model. With this scenario being described, whatever this Communist/Socialist bloc is, it's going to have more room for open disagreement, than anything even remotely close to bitter politicking, mud slinging, and border conflicts of the Split.

Also, the Sino-Soviet Split was at least partially occasioned by the crushing of Communist Hungary by Russia, and the Chinese Communists going, "But what if Russia does that to us?" and Russia being paranoid about wanting buffer states after WWII causing them to tolerate even less dissent than previously (which considering Stalin is saying something.)

That's actually a very specific set of circumstances that cannot just be universally applied to any two communist states.

It doesn't mean there might not be fights and divisions among communist countries... far from it, and it's legitimately fascinating to think about. But that's not the same as trying to apply a historical event out of context to another situation entirely.
 
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en.wikipedia.org

Qarmatians - Wikipedia


Only if you got a Jewish Sect that saw the ideas of temples as being a form Idolatry.

Which isn't impossible, as you demonstrated.

As noted, the damn thing has been wired together because of sects that hate it doing things taking a hammer to it.

On the subject of a Third Temple--I can't help but think that an actual existing temple would wind up fostering resentment and dissident sects for the simple reason that instead of an ideal that one can feel endless nostalgia about while never having to worry about how it might fail in its purported purpose, it's a real thing with the attendant rivalries, factions and disputes that would create.

Not an issue I worry about, for obvious reasons. But if the Temple were rebuilt and the era of the Messiah failed to occur I could see issues like that being a thing.

Wasn't animal sacrifice a big thing at the Temple? Would that come back or not - and how would Israeli authorities justify it either way?

It was a thing back in the day, it won't be thing when the Third Temple is built because the reconstruction of the Temple will herald the arrival of the Messiah, and animal sacrifice will be unnecessary in the Era of the Messiah since sin will be nonexistent. If Rav Cook is to be believed then the only sacrifices offered in the Third Temple will be offerings of Thanksgiving, and Thanksgiving offerings consist of just Matzah and oil.

Course that's assuming that my religion is true and correct, ya'll may not agree with me. :lol:
 
Hey, everyone, I'm Tanner151, author/creator of the Fulgrimian Heresy, From the Ashes Reborn - a Dornian Heresy Continuation Story, A Storm of Steel and Fire (my first story, it's rough) and of Der Kampf: the Rise and Fall of the Austrian Führer. I'm mainly on AlternateHistory.com and FanFiction.net but I'm trying to spread my readership base.

I'm posting to gauge interest over my Der Kampf story snd whether to post its 23+ chapter story over here. The basic premise is that Hitler is refused entry into the German Army in 1914 and over a long course of events he rises from a spiteful near-homeless wretch in Vienna to Führer of the Austrian State. Obviously this is different to OTL. Hitler will never come to power in Germany, The Nazismhere is more akin to Austrofascism. There is much and more that is different with more changing and developing as the story progresses. Currently in 1919 during the Austro-Slovene conflict.

The symbol of Hitler's party will be a red-trimmed white KruckenkreuzThe party is the Austrian Social Nationalist People's Party (ÖSNVP).

Below is the Prelude and the Prologue. Let me know if you like it. Thoughts, constructive criticism, etc are welcome.

Prelude

"A plague has been loosed upon the continent and it comes in the form of a failed Austrian artist."
-George Lloyd, Head of the House of Lords, 1939

"With the outbreak of war between the United Kingdom and the Japanese Empire, I advise we remain steadfast and monitor the situation. Our friends in the Kuomintang are eager for more advisors, machine tools and heavy equipment in the joint efforts to modernize their country and military. It is my belief, Herr Generalfeldmarschall, that we should provide these to ensure they do not fall victim to Japanese aggression, or worse, the Communists. Please relay my suggestions to the Chancellor at your earliest convenience."
-Lieutenant General Alexander von Falkenhausen, advisor to Chiang Kai-shek, 1940


"The Germans were an ever-present threat, especially after the restoration, but little did I know that the true threat to Europe would come not from the Berlin but rather Vienna."
-Brigadier General Charles de Gaulle, Commander-in-Chief Armée d'Afrique, 1941

"They think they have broken us but this is a lie spread by their silver tongued propagandists. Breslauer and Pavolini tell their people that we are defeated, that we have been "relocated." Lies upon lies. Hear me, my comrades! Today I promise you that our people and our faith will survive this war! I promise to you, my brothers and sisters, that we shall march into Belgrade and cast down the Kruckenkreuz and reclaim our homeland!"
-Marshal Josip Tito, Leader of the Yugoslav Partisans, 1944

+ + +
"In history there are the defeated and the victor, the conquered and the conqueror, the vanquished and the triumphant. In the Great War our beloved country was defeated by the poor leadership of the Hapsburgs, the ethnic conflict that divided us so terribly into petty squabbles, and the Judeo-Bolshevik forces that sabotaged our nation from within while besetting upon us from without like locusts.

For Austria to not only return to but supersede its former position of power in Europe it must unite the lands of the former empire under the rule of Vienna. Not as an empire ruled by bluebloods and so-called 'products of high breeding', as one's birth into the aristocratic ranks does not gift one strength or credential as so many have erroneously believed throughout history, but rather one's blood of superior racial stock tempered by war and the struggle against the forces that seek to undermine our nation and its people. Territory once lost must be returned, whether by force of arms or strokes of a pen.

United under the principles and goals of the Party, this Movement shall seize the reins of power and right the wrongs of the past whilst ensuring our dominance in a Europe currently laden with undesirables and damnable ideologies. Only through the cleansing fire of Social Nationalism can we rise like a phoenix from the ashes and reclaim our position as a great power in the world."
-Preamble to The Struggle, Adolf Hitler


Prologue
Request Denied
August 1914
Munich, Bavaria
German Empire


"Your request is denied."

He stood there, dumbstruck, as the seated lieutenant looked up from his official papers and shrugged.

"Denied?" he muttered angrily, tiredly. "How, why?"

The Bavarian Army leutnant leaned forward, fingers crossed with a disappointed look on his face.

"Mein herr, you were denied enlistment into the Bavarian Army for two reasons. One is your health. You are as thin and pale as a ghost, good sir, and I doubt you could carry an infantryman's kit into the field without collapsing either from the weight or heart attack. On health grounds alone you would be disqualified from service."

The Bavarian enlistment officer snorted, either clearing his nose or in contempt.

"The second reason is that you are Austrian, sir. The Austro-Hungarian Empire is an ally of Germany and therefore you, a citizen of said nation, cannot join the armed forces of the German Empire."

"I will not join an army of mongrel races. I want to join the brave men of Germany!" An idea struck him, "I will write a petition! I will… I will go to another recruitment center in Germany. Bavaria may have denied me, but the Fatherland is hungry for soldiers! Surely one will allow me to enlist. Surely one will take me in." Desperation seized him as he stood before the seated officer. A manic look befell the sickly man from Austria, causing his dark blue eyes to dart about the room, as if searching for an answer that refused to reveal itself.

The Bavarian officer leaned back into his chair, a scowl upon his face. Behind the sickly disheveled man stood dozens of other men, far more healthy in appearance and more controlled in manner, awaiting to enlist and fight for King and Kaiser. They shuffled impatiently and many stared daggers at the dark haired Austrian who was delaying their patriotic duty.

"Sir, you attempted to enlist in the Bavarian Army six months ago. You were denied then, just as you are denied now. Nothing has changed."

The dejected man slammed his hands down on the wooden table separating the two men. "Everything has changed! The world is at war! Soon enough the armies of empires will march across Europe, Africa and Asia. Nations will fall whilst others rise, and glory and honor will be for those who dared to fight in this war, it being the greatest endeavor Mankind has ever faced. We are brothers, you and I. German, Austrian, two sides of the same coin. Our language is the same, our love for Germany is the same. Don't let pedantics of birth and nationality dilute the German blood that flows through my veins. I may be an Austrian by birth but I am a German by blood. I deserve a chance to fight for the Vaterland and for its people. It is my right. "

The officer raised an eyebrow, minutely impressed with the passionate fervor of the man before him… but orders were orders, the rules and regulations in place must be followed. Not even an impassioned Austrian could bend the rules.

"I'm sorry, but the answer is the same. You are denied entry into the Bavarian Army and will continue to be denied based on your poor health and foreign citizenship. Neither the Bavarian Army nor the German Army will accept you into its ranks. I, as military representative of His Majesty Ludwig III of the Kingdom of Bavaria and Kaiser Wilhelm II of the German Empire, bid you farewell."

The Austrian slumped, his soul sapped of its energetic will. He turned and walked out of the recruitment office, eyes downcast at the concrete floor, unable to even look at those men who would go on to fight for Germany.

Germany, the Fatherland he never had. A nation of Germans for Germans, a place he could call home and a country he had come to love in his months of living in Munich. He had hoped that with the outbreak of war the requirements for enlistment would have lowered. But he was wrong, and now he was defeated. What was he to do? He had only a couple of Goldmarks in his pocket, the remnants of his family inheritance, his clothes were worn thin, rough, and patchwork. He had not showered in days and his stomach rumbled from hunger, a minor pain wracking his abdomen.

Grimacing, he turned to walk… somewhere. He didn't know where to go anymore.

"Hey, you!" called a voice from behind, coming from the recruitment center. The Austrian turned, excited, thinking that at last the officer had come to his senses. But instead of the portly mustachioed officer, a man about his age with dark hair and eyes approached him, a friendly smile on his face.

He noticed the gentleman's expensive clothes and top hat, and the way he walked, assured as if nothing would ever deny him or be out of reach. The Austrian could almost smell the wealth coming off of the man. While he detested the wealthy elite, many of whom were Jews, he nonetheless smiled and tried to present a friendly face. It was after all what he did to help sell his art down in the Kunstareal.

"Hello," said the rich man as he neared, holding out his hand. "I must say I loved your speech back there. Really fired up the flames of patriotism in myself! Well done, well done indeed!"

"Oh, umm, thank you. Much obliged, herr-"

"Walter Schulz at your service!" The man took off his hat and gave a small bow while smiling.

Good God, he is like the theatre in the flesh, he thought sardonically.

"Herr Schulz. Thank you for your kind words. They have lifted my spirits somewhat."

"It's a damn shame you weren't admitted. We could use you in the Army. Like you said, you might be an Austrian by birth but you're a German by blood. And it'll be that same noble blood that sees our two countries emerge victorious in the months ahead."

"Thank you, that means a great deal to me," he said, truly touched by the man's comments. A brief silence existed between them, the nearly-penniless Austrian not knowing what to say and the rich German having spoken his piece.

"Well I'm sure you're busy, Herr Schulz, and I must be off as well. I have… other matters to attend to."

Schulz's eyes flicked over his appearance and a look of pity flashed over the well-to-do German's face.

"I see, yes, of course, I'm sure you are quite busy." Schulz went for another handshake but with the opposite hand, it having emerged from his pocket. The Austrian shook it awkwardly, eager to end this odd meeting, and felt something in the man's palm slip into his. He looked at it and saw a fifty Goldmark banknote. His eyes widened and he stared up at the taller man.

"I-" his tongue felt stiff and dry so he swallowed. "I don't know what to say other than thank you." The relief and honesty in those words poured forth with conviction.

"That's more than enough for me. While you may not be able to fight for Germany directly, perhaps you could do so in another way by joining your nation's army. Our countries share the same enemies after all. You would still be fighting for Germany, if indirectly. I overheard your comment about fighting beside mongrels races, but better to fight beside the Slav and Magyar then to not fight at all, eh?"

The Austrian nodded, realizing the truth of the words.

"Use that," Schulz gestured towards the banknote, "to eat a hot meal, stay in a comfortable hotel tonight, and take a first-class ticket to Vienna."

A tear formed in the Austrian's eye that he was quick to blink away. "Thank you so much, this… this has saved me."

Schulz nodded, understanding. As the German turned away, bidding farewell with a wave, he stopped mid-turn.

"I apologize, mein freund. I never asked your name."

"Ah, the fault is mine, I forgot to give it. My mind is a whirlwind of emotion."

Schulz laughed. "I'm sure it is. So what is your name?"

The destitute, dejected, recently elevated from impoverished by the fifty mark banknote painter from Austria scratched his cheek and locked his blue eyes with Schulz's hazel.

"My name is Adolf Hitler, pleased to make your acquaintance."
 
That's an interesting concept, but I'd recommend you start your own thread for it.
 
About how to handle WW2 in a Magical Girl-ified History of Japan without just glossing it over, I now think the best way may be to put the spotlight on MGs in the Japanese Resistance movements, their version of Germany's Widerstand, whenever I bring up the era.

I should also note that another big difference from Japan to Himikoku is the existence of multiple sapient species besides humans, mostly Youkai like Oni, Kitsune, Tengu, and so on, as well as Karakuri robots. So while humans are still in charge, it's definitely not a mostly homogenous society like Japan.
 
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What do you mean by "Western methods" in this case?

Western styles of government, or more accurately mindsets. I'd argue many Japanese atrocities even before the Showa could be pinned on the fact Western powers pretty much did the same, which Japan copied in it's quest to stay uncolonized. It wasn't sporadic barbarism, but the same Western outlooks that tended to look down on their inferiors. Not that I believe Japan was a land of peace and tolerance, before westerners showed up.
 
Hey, everyone, I'm Tanner151, author/creator of the Fulgrimian Heresy, From the Ashes Reborn - a Dornian Heresy Continuation Story, A Storm of Steel and Fire (my first story, it's rough) and of Der Kampf: the Rise and Fall of the Austrian Führer. I'm mainly on AlternateHistory.com and FanFiction.net but I'm trying to spread my readership base.

Welcome to the forum!

I'm going through a bit of a WW2-AH overdose, so I'm not likely to start reading your piece. I wish you the best of luck finding more readers. ^_^

However, the big issue comes with how to handle WW2, like right now I'm tempted to just end recounting the timeline before then, or keep going but skip over it altogether (which just raises its own issues).

Why would WW2 even happen in this history? There are any number of ways that your scenario would lead to history and society evolving differently. It seems much more interesting to me for a "magical girls are real" alternate history to explore the different wars and the different social dynamics that would flow from the different conditions of humanity.

Is Japan the only society with magical girls? What sort of crash modernization would result if Perry's black ships were banished from Tokyo Bay to San Francisco harbour by a flotilla of flying schoolgirls? Do they need to be schoolgirls? If so does this mean that the ability of teenage females to wield magic is dependent on their host societies educating their women to a high degree?

If Japan had magical girls at earlier parts of its history, how do they get involved with the various surges of Japanese piracy in East Asia? How would the existence of magical girls affect the efforts of the Portuguese to spread Christianity in Japan?

The details of the world would be quite different, even if you managed to make the history of your world rhyme with the history of our world.

fasquardon
 
I would say Europe, the US, and elsewhere would've had their own equivalents of Magical Girls, just as in our world they had like knights and cowboys instead of samurai. In Europe's case, it would've been a mix of witches on the pagan side, Joan of Arc-esque battle-saints and fairytale princesses on the Christian side, Kabbalist girls in the Jewish quarters, and Alchemist girls all around, with possibly paganism in Europe having held out longer (I mean, they're technically still around today).

While magical girls in this timeline could start as teenagers, their powers would certainly stick around into adulthood, to the point where mahou-onna may be a better term in this setting than mahou-shoujo. A Quest I'm even planning would explore the role of wakashu (or their female equivalents) in a MG context.

Western witchcraft would've become big in Japan during the Sengoku period like how guns did in OT, Christian miraclework not so much since that relies on Holy Wisdom choosing you, but Himikoku still would've had its own Saints like Japan did. Japanese magic before then would've already been a mix of native Shinto 'Shamanism' and Taoist-inspired Onmyodo also like OT, but also influenced by what I guess you'd call 'moon magic' introduced by lunar rabbits, stuff like elixir mochi and gravity control, paralleling Sailor Moon drawing on the Kaguya legend. Communication with the kami within weapons also plays a role, a la Bleach or Soul Eater.

Possibly the biggest timeline split I have planned right now is the Ezo Republic actually surviving past... one year, due to samurai's extra firepower.
Edit: I can see my description of magic in this story sounds kinda messy, but that's because I was trying to have it reflect how Japanese culture has mixed with other cultures throughout history.
 
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I would say Europe, the US, and elsewhere would've had their own equivalents of Magical Girls, just as in our world they had like knights and cowboys instead of samurai. In Europe's case, it would've been a mix of witches on the pagan side, Joan of Arc-esque battle-saints and fairytale princesses on the Christian side, Kabbalist girls in the Jewish quarters, and Alchemist girls all around, with possibly paganism in Europe having held out longer (I mean, they're technically still around today).

While magical girls in this timeline could start as teenagers, their powers would certainly stick around into adulthood, to the point where mahou-onna may be a better term in this setting than mahou-shoujo. A Quest I'm even planning would explore the role of wakashu (or their female equivalents) in a MG context.

Western witchcraft would've become big in Japan during the Sengoku period like how guns did in OT, Christian miraclework not so much since that relies on Holy Wisdom choosing you, but Himikoku still would've had its own Saints. MG magic before then would've already been a mix of native Shinto 'Shamanism' and Taoist-inspired Onmyodo also like OT, but also influenced by what you'd call 'moon magic' introduced by lunar rabbits, stuff like elixir mochi and gravity control, paralleling Sailor Moon drawing on the Kaguya legend. Communication with the kami within weapons also plays a role, a la Bleach or Soul Eater.

Possibly the biggest timeline split I have planned right now is the Ezo Republic actually surviving past... one year, due to samurai's extra firepower.
This is pretty major stuff... Jewish culture is going to be massively influenced by the existence of Kabbalist girls for example. (For most of history Kabbala has very much been the preserve of members of the male elite of Jewish communities. Hasidism in OTL was revolutionary in part for making Kabbalist mysticism more open to ordinary Jewish men. In this world, the health of Jewish communities is going to make a more open Kabbalism important from the start.)

Depending on how obvious magical talent is, society could be less egalitarian (magical girls become a special category like nuns) or much more egalitarian (if all girls of all classes become a vital resource for a society. And what's the social impact of magical girls becoming mothers?

I suspect that societies that don't form taboos against magical girl motherhood will be a little more egalitarian or much more egalitarian than their OTL equivalents.

How does slavery work in a situation where female slaves are as likely as any other girl to be born with magic? How will caste systems work if the untouchable castes have equal access to living artillery? Societies like the Roman empire could probably keep slaves without being too changed from OTL, but things like the European slave/caste system and the Indian caste system would likely need to have very different social systems to maintain their heirarchies. And that's going to include Japan. How will the Burakumin be kept in their place in this world? If the Burakumin don't exist, what impact does that have on Japanese society and history?

Well... I appreciate that these ideas may not make for an interesting story for you. This is the sort of thing I love to see the author think about in fantasy stories and rarely find.

fasquardon
 
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Hmm, I think there could be a place in a lot of societies to basically consider magic a "Get out of Jail Free" card. Basically, even if you belong to an inferior caste, if you get magic then God/the fates/whatever else clearly actually is saying something.

"You were born Untouchable but the Gods have made you pure" or whatever you need to try to still keep an underclass.
 
Hmm, I think there could be a place in a lot of societies to basically consider magic a "Get out of Jail Free" card. Basically, even if you belong to an inferior caste, if you get magic then God/the fates/whatever else clearly actually is saying something.

"You were born Untouchable but the Gods have made you pure" or whatever you need to try to still keep an underclass.

I agree. But it will mean that the ideological justification for keeping the Untouchables down would be slightly different in this world.

The idea that the gods could and would purify some Untouchables and Burakumin and the like would have consequences. For example, might it also become a rare reward available to men and non-magical women who do some heroic act? Might it weaken the overall authority of the social institutions of oppression?

fasquardon
 
I agree. But it will mean that the ideological justification for keeping the Untouchables down would be slightly different in this world.

The idea that the gods could and would purify some Untouchables and Burakumin and the like would have consequences. For example, might it also become a rare reward available to men and non-magical women who do some heroic act? Might it weaken the overall authority of the social institutions of oppression?

fasquardon

Now, that is pretty interesting, you're right. I could see that happening.
 
Hmm, I think there could be a place in a lot of societies to basically consider magic a "Get out of Jail Free" card. Basically, even if you belong to an inferior caste, if you get magic then God/the fates/whatever else clearly actually is saying something.

"You were born Untouchable but the Gods have made you pure" or whatever you need to try to still keep an underclass.

You could have them use the gifted few as a justification for the oppressive system; "If they were gifted by the gods, then the gods do not deem the rest of you worthy/you haven't worked hard enough for the Gods to deem you worthy."
 
I am reminded though that the Cagots in the west of france and northern spain were considered during the middle ages, Renaissance and industrial revolution were considered to be pestilential and intrinsically evil in spite of showing no ethnic or religious differences from other people in the regions they lived speaking both the same language and practicing the same religion only difference being that they were indentifed as being descended from families long identified as Cagots.

Cagots were barred from social and political rights, were required to live in a seperat separate quarters on the outskirts of towns called cagoteries, were forbidden to marry to non-Cagots, enter taverns, hold cabarets, use public fountains, sell food or wine, touch food in the market, work with livestock, or enter mills, they were even forbidden from entering churches though the same doors as other church goers with railings seperating them from other church goers and if they were allowed the eucharist at all it was given to them on the end of a wooden stick.

Which makes me wonder would a group that suffered such systematic discrimination and indeed thought to not just be unclean but actually evil by their every nature be subjected to having select members raised up by the culture they lived in or would the appearance of powers among them be seen as a sign of at least some of them showing their unholy nature and hunted?
 
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How does slavery work in a situation where female slaves are as likely as any other girl to be born with magic? How will caste systems work if the untouchable castes have equal access to living artillery? Societies like the Roman empire could probably keep slaves without being too changed from OTL, but things like the European slave/caste system and the Indian caste system would likely need to have very different social systems to maintain their heirarchies.
I mentioned elsewhere that a society where magic (or indeed any inborn powers that render the holder more formidable than the ordinary run of men) pops up among the population in an unpredictable manner then sweeping the 'lower orders' for 'wild talents' becomes a survival strategy (providing benefits for the mage's/magical girl's/what-have-you's kin group rather than dragging them off by main force is the sort of thing that is less of a societal threat in the long term).
 
You could have them use the gifted few as a justification for the oppressive system; "If they were gifted by the gods, then the gods do not deem the rest of you worthy/you haven't worked hard enough for the Gods to deem you worthy."

I agree with this. A willingness to accept small numbers of lower class/caste girls into the ruling class would actually strengthen the social hierarchy by offering a route- albeit open to only a few- for social mobility and a justification for why the rest of the bottom caste is denied that route.

I'll bet most nobles and elites will be claiming descent from various historic magical girls eventually.
 
I am reminded though that the Cagots in the west of france and northern spain were considered during the middle ages, Renaissance and industrial revolution were considered to be pestilential and intrinsically evil in spite of showing no ethnic or religious differences from other people in the regions they lived speaking both the same language and practicing the same religion only difference being that they were indentifed as being descended from families long identified as Cagots.

Cagots were barred from social and political rights, were required to live in a seperat separate quarters on the outskirts of towns called cagoteries, were forbidden to marry to non-Cagots, enter taverns, hold cabarets, use public fountains, sell food or wine, touch food in the market, work with livestock, or enter mills, they were even forbidden from entering churches though the same doors as other church goers with railings seperating them from other church goers and if they were allowed the eucharist at all it was given to them on the end of a wooden stick.

Which makes me wonder would a group that suffered such systematic discrimination and indeed thought to not just be unclean but actually evil by their every nature be subjected to having select members raised up by the culture they lived in or would the appearance of powers among them be seen as a sign of at least some of them showing their unholy nature and hunted?

I imagine quite alot of the "evil witches" that magical girls in this world would fight would in fact be the magical girls of oppressed out-groups.

I mentioned elsewhere that a society where magic (or indeed any inborn powers that render the holder more formidable than the ordinary run of men) pops up among the population in an unpredictable manner then sweeping the 'lower orders' for 'wild talents' becomes a survival strategy (providing benefits for the mage's/magical girl's/what-have-you's kin group rather than dragging them off by main force is the sort of thing that is less of a societal threat in the long term).

This makes me think of the hunts for rogue psykers in 40K.

I'll bet most nobles and elites will be claiming descent from various historic magical girls eventually.

It would fit well with European "divine right of kings" ideas.

fasquardon
 
Hmm, I think there could be a place in a lot of societies to basically consider magic a "Get out of Jail Free" card. Basically, even if you belong to an inferior caste, if you get magic then God/the fates/whatever else clearly actually is saying something.

"You were born Untouchable but the Gods have made you pure" or whatever you need to try to still keep an underclass.

In Shadowrun low-caste children in India found to be magical are quickly adopted into higher-caste families and their original birth status 'forgotten'.
 
This all runs on the assumption that Magical Girls in my setting are born with magic. When it comes to humans, it's either something they have to be either educated in, and/or acquire from artifacts (mostly weapons). Heritage only plays a role as for what education you have access to, and even Saints get chosen during life and don't pass on their powers through bloodline. This isn't to say bloodlines don't factor into pseudoscience, or er, pseudo-magic.

For non-human races (e.g. kitsune), inborn powers are more of a thing, yet humans still have the advantage in sheer numbers. Some species are more respected (e.g. Eastern Dragons), others less so (e.g. Nekomata, who've been shunted into a Burakumin-like role), and others outright feared (Western Dragons).
 
Some of these beings are immortal, unaging, or merely long-lived, no? I wonder how that plays into things. Would any nations have an immortal non-human monarch, for instance?
 
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